Two Ju87s shot down by Convoy PQ4 22/11/41?
 

Hi guys

The following is an extract from the diary of an MN officer aboard one of the freighters of PQ4. I have been unable to verify the claims. Can anyone advise, please?

November 22nd.Crossed Arctic Circle. Course for 75 N. I believe. Stukas dive-bombed the convoy. The flutes under the wings gave a banshee wail and every seventh shell was a tracer so when one of the gunners on the port wing Oerlikon was hit by a tracer it cauterised the wound and he survived the rough handling when the skipper ordered "that corpse off the bridge"I put him in the shelter of the wheelhouse which was re-inforced with concrete slabs) and took over the gun for a few exciting seconds. We were in the vicinity of Jan Mayen island at the extremity of the Stuka's range so it was a short lived raid. They lost two planes and the crew were dead when picked up. Temp. 40 below.


And who were the fatalities?

Cheers
Brian

Re: Two Ju87s shot down by Convoy PQ4 22/11/41?
 

All Ju.87 were on south sector of AOK Norwegen. Last sortie from Kirkenes seems to be at 1.11.41.
Jan-Mayen island is 800 km away from Bodoe airstrip so no Ju.87 can reach it in any case. So this is obviously false recollection

Re: Two Ju87s shot down by Convoy PQ4 22/11/41?
 

Hi Brian,

no attack mentioned in the KTB Skl for 22.-23.11.1941 as far I checked the sources.

Regards

Darius

Re: Two Ju87s shot down by Convoy PQ4 22/11/41?
 

The only Ju 87 unit in Norway and the north of Finland in November/December 1941, was the lV.(St.)/L.G.1. The only
loss reported around 22 November was on the 20. November when
a Ju 87R-2 W.Nr. 6131 was lost 100% due to an engine fire at Kestenga airfield.
The units planes were mainly used against Soviet ground positions.

Re: Two Ju87s shot down by Convoy PQ4 22/11/41?
 

Hi guys

Thanks for the contributions. Just as I thought. However, the diary (not memoir) implies that the convoy was attacked - but by what?

My research would suggest that seamen often reported attacking aircraft as "stukas" whether they were or not Ju87s. So, perhaps the attackers were Ju88s. Is there any mention of Ju88 activity - bombers or reconnaissance aircraft?

For the diary entry to be acceptable, the writer's ship, believed to have been the British Dan-Y-Bryn, was attacked and a crew member seriously wounded.

Over to you!
Cheers
Brian

Re: Two Ju87s shot down by Convoy PQ4 22/11/41?
 

Brian,

Have you been to Convoy Web?

http://www.convoyweb.org.uk/hague/index.html

Re: Two Ju87s shot down by Convoy PQ4 22/11/41?
 

Don’t forget that the Ju88 was designed to dive bomb as well as carry out horizontal bombing and strictly speaking was therefore a ‘Stuka’. Much more likely that they were Ju88s rather than Ju87s.

Re: Two Ju87s shot down by Convoy PQ4 22/11/41?
 

Only Ju.88 gruppe Far North that period was II./KG 30 and it was based at Kemi, Finland.
In Abendmeldung of Gefechtsstab LF 5 we can read that weather was really bad and there was no bomber's sortie, only recon. Gefechtsstab was responsible for Finland and Finnmark of course, but regions are near.
Only planes can be over PQ-4 - recon/meteo planes. They can't dive.

Re: Two Ju87s shot down by Convoy PQ4 22/11/41?
 

+Seelage from LF 5 at 22.11.41:
Nordmeer and Barentssee keine neuen Lagemeldungen.
Also no mention about PQ-4 in Admiralty War Diary

Re: Two Ju87s shot down by Convoy PQ4 22/11/41?
 

Hi guys

So not Ju87s or Ju88 bombers, therefore possibly/probably a lone Ju88 recon aircraft? Any further suggestions?

The entry stating that two aircraft were shot down and dead crewmen being recovered from the seems to have been an exaggeration of facts! But why record such in one's own diary?

Any further thoughts?

Cheers
Brian

Re: Two Ju87s shot down by Convoy PQ4 22/11/41?
 

On the offchance that the diarist confused his dates, you could check out the sailing and arrival dates at convoyweb. Then go through the Admiralty War Diaries (at www.fold3.com — and elsewhere online, I think) for those days: an air attack on the convoy would almost certainly be mentioned. Similarly, it might be mentioned in the German naval war diaries — the US-English translations are here: https://archive.org/search?query=sub...s%2C+German%22

Re: Two Ju87s shot down by Convoy PQ4 22/11/41?
 

Hi guys

Thanks for the leads, Nick.

Searching through my library, I came across the following in Michael G. Walling's "Forgotten Sacrifice" (Osprey 2012):

PQ4 was attacked by a small group of Ju88s in an area to the south of Jan Mayen Island. Single planes continued to attack the convoy until it reached the White Sea. However, the attacks were not driven home.

The mystery deepens!

Cheers
Brian

Re: Two Ju87s shot down by Convoy PQ4 22/11/41?
 

Bet he takes this from same memoirs. There is no reports about attacks north from Faroer islands and in Barents/White sea during 17-28.11.41

Re: Two Ju87s shot down by Convoy PQ4 22/11/41?
 

From another site:

(For details of all Russian Convoys see CONVOYS TO RUSSIA by R A Ruegg, CONVOY! by P Kemp. THE RUSSIAN CONVOYS by B Schoefield and ARCTIC CONVOYS by R Woodman.)

Also see, Arnold Hague’s “The Allied Convoy System.”

Re: Two Ju87s shot down by Convoy PQ4 22/11/41?
 

It may also be helpful to look at accounts from other ships that sailed with PQ 4. The following is part of an exhaustive account related to a group of medals and original documents being sold by DCM Medals.

17th – Deployed with escort for Russian Convoy PQ4 with HM Destroyers OFFA and ONSLOW.
Convoy PQ 4 was the fifth of the Arctic Convoys of World War II by which the Western Allies supplied material aid to the Soviet Union in its fight with Nazi Germany. The Convoy sailed from Hvalfjord, Iceland on 17 November 1941 and arrived at Archangelsk on 28 November 1941. (with H.M.S. Berwick from 25 Nov. – 27 Nov.).

27th – At Murmansk after arrival of PQ4.

The site in question:

https://www.dcmmedals.co.uk/product/...nal-documents/

Re: Two Ju87s shot down by Convoy PQ4 22/11/41?
 

I think NA Kew contains lot of documents that much more reliable and extensive than any book.