Hungarian Messerschmitt, Me or Bf
 

HI Guys,

I have a dilema,
I am used to use shortcut for HUngarian build Messerschmitt 109 as Me 109, and all other used by Luftwaffe or in Germany/Reich build messerschmitts 109 shortcut Bf 109...
Is it correct to have HUngarian plnes marked as Me 109? Or shall I use also for those Bf 109???
Thanks

Peter

Re: Hungarian Messerschmitt, Me or Bf
 

Both names are accurate! Probably Me 109 would be easier to recognize, but Bf 109 is also accurate.

Re: Hungarian Messerschmitt, Me or Bf
 

I reviewed an old publication on Bf 109 production in MWG factories, and the references show the situation is rather simliar to the German, ie. both designations used, altough Hungarian sources seem to prefer the Bf designation.

If you happen to read Hungarian, here is it :

(Az RLM átirata szerint a német Messerschmitt 1938. októbere után tervezett gépeinél a Bf jelzés helyett a Me jelölést kellett használni, mivel a gyár bekebelezte a Bayerische Flugzeugwerke AG-t, és Messerschmitt AG néven működött tovább. Az újabb típusok számait is eszerint adták ki. Ennek ellenére a hivatalos iratok nagy részében és a magyar felderítő iratanyagban a levelezés 1941–43-ban is Bf jellel folyt. A jelen tanulmány a fellelhető iratanyagra épül, így a megnevezéseket, a korabeli terminológiát és mértékegységeket változatlanul hagytuk.)

Ie.

'As per the RLM's transcript on planes designed by the German Messerschmitt the ME designation were to be used instead of the BF designation, as the factory overtook the Bayerische Flugzeugwerke AG and continued to operate as Messerschmitt AG after October 1938. The newer type's designations were given out accordingly. Despite that, in a large amount of official papers and also in the Hungarian intelligence papers the correspondence continued using the BF designation in 1941-1943. As this study is based on the findable (eng?) contemporary materials , hence the designations, contemporary terminology and measurement units were left unchanged.'

(ie. he was using Bf 109 in the article)

Source :

path = document.title; //"1993-2003^1997. OKTÓBER–DECEMBER XXXI. ÉVFOLYAM^HADITECHNIKA-TÖRTÉNET^Winkler László: Repülőgépgyártás a győri MWG. Rt. üzemeiben II. rész"; re = //; path=newstr.replace(re, ">"); re = / \^ /g; newstr=path.replace(re, " / "); path = newstr; tomb = path.split("^"); a = tomb.slice(1,tomb.length-1); tomb = a; path = tomb.join(' · / · '); document.write(''+path+"
\n"); 1997. OKTÓBER–DECEMBER XXXI. ÉVFOLYAM · / · HADITECHNIKA-TÖRTÉNET

71. Winkler László: Repülőgépgyártás a győri MWG. Rt. üzemeiben II. rész

Re: Hungarian Messerschmitt, Me or Bf
 

Thanks!!!

Re: Hungarian Messerschmitt, Me or Bf
 

Peterka,

Both are correct (cus both were used), I used in my aces book the Bf 109 designation.

See ya,

Re: Hungarian Messerschmitt, Me or Bf
 

Hello Peter,

Nice to 'see' you again.

As the previous posters have stated, although both forms were generally used, I also suggest you to stick to the original RLM designation, namely Bf 109, or 8-109, if you want to be technical :o

Re: Hungarian Messerschmitt, Me or Bf
 

Denes
Can you provide a document stating designation Me 109 is incorrect?

Re: Hungarian Messerschmitt, Me or Bf
 

IMHO, Denes never said that the Me 109 designation was incorrect. We all know that both designations were widely used, but that the RLM used the Bf 109 designation, and supposedly it was the group to provide the politically correct decision on matters like this.

Re: Hungarian Messerschmitt, Me or Bf
 

Well, I expect an RLM document stating that Bf prefix should be used instead of Me in case of 8-109 and 8-110 aircraft, etc. Otherwise I see no reason to consider Bf a more official designation rather than Me.

Re: Hungarian Messerschmitt, Me or Bf
 

Dear Franek,

Essentially all manuals, production records, loss records and Fb. use the Bf prefix for both the 109 and 110. In minutes of RLM meetings, the Bf and 8 are almost always used (I cannot remember an exception, but there are probably some). Where the Me designation was used was in propaganda releases and in some Messerschmitt internal documents. Pilots apparently refered to the 109s as "Emmees" but looking through Fb the Bf prefix was used. As Bf was the official prefix until the reorganization the late 1930s all designs recognized by the RLM until that time were identified using the Bf prefix, including the Bf 161, 162, 163. Since that was the original official prefix, there was no need for any RLM document to further confirm the designation. Such a document would probably be needed only if the designation were changed, which it was not. I have documents both RLM and LW up to the last weeks of the war showing the Bf prefix only, with the Me designation in the same documents being used for the 262, 410, etc.
If one is dealing with the war from the allied sde, most GB and USA documents use Me 109, so if you are writing or talking from that viewpoint, it is correct from the standpoint that was the common usage.

So, don't "expect an RLM document stating that Bf prefix should be used instead of Me" but in relation to the official documents of the RLM and LW, Bf is definitely the most common usage.

Best Regards,

Artie Bob

Re: Hungarian Messerschmitt, Me or Bf
 

HI Denes (and all others posting here:) )
Thansk for answer...So I will stick to Bf 109 for all messerchmits with 109 in the name:)
BTW, I am not back, or was not hiding;) so you could see me here all the time:) just U R the one who is changing countries;) viszonlatasra??

Peter

Re: Hungarian Messerschmitt, Me or Bf
 

Dear Artie
I am awared of mixed appearance of both Me and Bf prefixes in the German documents and even on aircraft. German airmen generally reffered to Me and not Bf (I believe I have a Flugbuch stating so - 1943, but the question is, who filed it), and I have even seen authentic Me 109G(!) ID dataplate, so I would not restrict it to propaganda and internal issues only.
In such a fuss I do not believe RLM had not issued any document, as they were worried even with less important things. You know, bureaucracy is a kind of cancer...
Thus said, I would say statement that Bf is official and Me not is a little bit too definite in the current state of knowledge. That is all.
By the way, every Lw man I have talked to pronunced 'Mayh' rather than 'Emmee'.

Re: Hungarian Messerschmitt, Me or Bf
 

From the sight of the Erla Maschinenwerk GmbH, the greatest subcontractor of Bf 109, I can say they never used the prefix "Me" --- not in the first official/ inofficial documents from 1937 and not in the last documents in 1946/47 too, not in flight logs of factory pilots (I've seen) and not on known ID plates from Bf 109E,FG - 2, G - 6 or G - 14's. So I agree complete with ArtieBob.

Best wishes
Rasmussen

Re: Hungarian Messerschmitt, Me or Bf
 

This is still not the answer! There should be a RLM document clearing the issue as the one concerning Fw prefix. Unless such paper is found, nobody can state Bf is only official prefix for Me 108s, 109s and 110s.

Re: Hungarian Messerschmitt, Me or Bf
 

Well then, there you are, Franek, the lack of such an order means you can now choose, on your own, which prefix you wish to use for the 108, 109, and 110. And, regardless of which you use, no one can call you wrong.

Re: Hungarian Messerschmitt, Me or Bf
 

It's most common to encounter Me in Mtt documents especially those designed for export purposes like the translated flight manuals. Those are definitely using Me rather than Bf.
The documents designed by Mtt for the RLM feature "Bf" rather than "Me" (except in preliminary versions) but internal Mtt documents use both and even the RLM internal docs use both... sometimes within the same document.

I would probably follow Mtt way of thinking and call exports 109, "Me 109" but technically both designations are valid.

Re: Hungarian Messerschmitt, Me or Bf
 

And that is my point exactly, use the prefix you like but do not tell it is the only proper one! Personally, I prefer Me 109, it just looks better.

Re: Hungarian Messerschmitt, Me or Bf
 

This point came up many years ago in the letters section of an Aviation magazine. The answer setted on was that the 108.109 and 110 were designed by Willi Messerschitt while he was chief designer for the Bayeriche Flugzeugwek. As such these three aircraft numbers were prefixed with Bf , when the firm was taken over as Messerschmidt all subsequent designs had a Me prefix. Please note I personlly do not know if this is correct I am just recounting from memory of over thirty years ago.Whatever is technically the right designation both Bf and Me are widely understood as referring to these three aircraft,
Regards to all
Brian Bines

Re: Hungarian Messerschmitt, Me or Bf
 

Brian

I have the FB for the 2 main works test pilot's Dr Wurster and Fritz Wendal, they both listed all flights as per you post.

Regards

Tony