Break down of Lw losses during BoB
 

Gents
I have been trying but failed to find a break down of Luftwaffe losses during the Battle of Britain on weekly or monthly basis, best by Luftflotten. Does anyone have ever seen anything like that?
TIA

Re: Break down of Lw losses during BoB
 

Franek

My friend Geoffrey Sinclair has made a try which I enclose here.
Unfortunately the tabulation does not work out properly. I have tried to fix it when I copy his data.
Not sure it works however after I press send....

The various Battle of Britain books have their summaries and more
detailed loss listings. For a start these are the Luftwaffe loss
numbers from the RAF publication of the Luftwaffe Quartermaster records,
which are reproduced in The Narrow Margin by Wood and Dempster

\ as column separator, Destroyed \\ damaged.

Jul-40 \ Aug-40 \ Sep-40 \ Oct-40 \ Nov-40 \\ Jul-40 \ Aug-40 \ Sep-40 \Oct-40\ Nov-40 \ Month
0 \ 1 \ 0 \ 1 \ 0 \\ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \ 1 \ 0 \ Short Range Recon. Operations Enemy Action
0 \ 1 \ 1 \ 3 \ 0 \\ 0 \ 2 \ 1 \ 3 \ 0 \ Short Range Recon. Operations Not Enemy Action
2 \ 1 \ 2 \ 3 \ 5 \\ 1 \ 1 \ 7 \ 7 \ 7 \ Short Range Recon. Not on Operations
18 \ 13 \ 16 \ 8 \ 4 \\ 2 \ 1 \ 3 \ 1 \ 3 \ Long Range Recon. Operations Enemy Action
8 \ 3 \ 3 \ 5 \ 1 \\ 4 \ 1 \ 3 \ 6 \ 1 \ Long Range Recon. Operations Not Enemy Action
4 \ 2 \ 3 \ 3 \ 1 \\ 1 \ 1 \ 3 \ 4 \ 2 \ Long Range Recon. Not on Operations
34 \ 177 \ 187 \ 104 \ 12 \\ 6 \ 24 \ 17 \ 24 \ 6 \ Single Engine Fighter Operations Enemy Action
12 \ 34 \ 33 \ 19 \ 7 \\ 8 \ 33 \ 42 \ 28 \ 5 \ Single Engine Fighter Operations Not Enemy Action
7 \ 20 \ 14 \ 22 \ 15 \\ 16 \ 23 \ 16 \ 33 \ 20 \ Single Engine Fighter Not on Operations
19 \ 114 \ 81 \ 10 \ 0 \\ 4 \ 32 \ 13 \ 1 \ 3 \ Twin Engine Fighter Operations Enemy Action
1 \ 6 \ 2 \ 2 \ 1 \\ 2 \ 9 \ 0 \ 3 \ 0 \ Twin Engine Fighter Operations Not Enemy Action
2 \ 5 \ 5 \ 5 \ 5 \\ 2 \ 2 \ 1 \ 4 \ 0 \ Twin Engine Fighter Not on Operations
0 \ 1 \ 1 \ 1 \ 0 \\ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \ Night Fighter Operations Enemy Action
0 \ 1 \ 1 \ 13 \ 3 \\ 0 \ 1 \ 0 \ 2 \ 1 \ Night Fighter Operations Not Enemy Action
0 \ 1 \ 1 \ 2 \ 4 \\ 0 \ 0 \ 1 \ 2 \ 5 \ Night Fighter Not on Operations
76 \ 183 \ 165 \ 64 \ 14 \\ 12 \ 48 \ 58 \ 24 \ 1 \ Bomber Operations Enemy Action
17 \ 45 \ 65 \ 78 \ 57 \\ 14 \ 34 \ 70 \ 66 \ 43 \ Bomber Operations Not Enemy Action
20 \ 31 \ 19 \ 29 \ 13 \\ 28 \ 36 \ 34 \ 18 \ 30 \ Bomber Not on Operations
12 \ 47 \ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \\ 8 \ 14 \ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \ Dive Bomber Operations Enemy Action
4 \ 4 \ 2 \ 0 \ 0 \\ 2 \ 3 \ 1 \ 3 \ 2 \ Dive Bomber Operations Not Enemy Action
3 \ 7 \ 7 \ 6 \ 2 \\ 5 \ 8 \ 8 \ 2 \ 5 \ Dive Bomber Not on Operations
0 \ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \\ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \ Ground Attack Operations Enemy Action
1 \ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \\ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \ Ground Attack Operations Not Enemy Action
0 \ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \\ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \ Ground Attack Not on Operations
1 \ 2 \ 0 \ 1 \ 0 \\ 1 \ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \ Transport Operations Enemy Action
0 \ 1 \ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \\ 0 \ 1 \ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \ Transport Operations Not Enemy Action
3 \ 2 \ 6 \ 5 \ 4 \\ 3 \ 4 \ 2 \ 3 \ 2 \ Transport Not on Operations
11 \ 19 \ 8 \ 7 \ 2 \\ 0 \ 2 \ 2 \ 0 \ 0 \ Coastal Operations Enemy Action
3 \ 11 \ 15 \ 9 \ 1 \\ 0 \ 3 \ 3 \ 1 \ 0 \ Coastal Operations Not Enemy Action
2 \ 8 \ 4 \ 8 \ 4 \\ 1 \ 6 \ 5 \ 1 \ 1 \ Coastal Not on Operations
1 \ 1 \ 1 \ 0 \ 2 \\ 0 \ 1 \ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \ Miscellaneous Operations Enemy Action
0 \ 0 \ 1 \ 0 \ 0 \\ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \ 0 \ Miscellaneous Operations Not Enemy Action
4 \ 3 \ 5 \ 4 \ 3 \\ 3 \ 4 \ 12 \ 4 \ 4 \ Miscellaneous Not on Operations

Geoffrey Sinclair

Re: Break down of Lw losses during BoB
 

Stig and Geoff
Many thanks for this, most helpful!
Browsing here and there I was unable to find such a breakdown, most giving a more general data. Quite, getting through GQ6 records may provide a more detailed analysis, but it would require a lot of work in turning them into a database, which would be a work on its own, and too much effort to what I actually need.
No worries, I can rework it back into a table.

Re: Break down of Lw losses during BoB
 

The Lagemeldungen West on the German Docs in Russia (TsAMO) site give each day's losses but these are only broken down by aircraft type, not unit or cause, and nothing about damage-only cases. These figures would be easy enough to enter on to a spreadsheet but might not give the information you need.

The other sources that might be useful are Bundesarchiv files RL 2-III/708a, /708b, /709a and 709b. These are free to download and between them cover 6 July–16 November 1940. They include weekly figures for loss or damage of aircraft broken down by type for each flying arm (fighter, Stuka bomber etc.).
So for example for 4–10 August there are 17 Bf 109 lost and 11 damaged, 10 Ju 87 lost and 7 damaged. There are also figures for crew dead, wounded or missing.

Re: Break down of Lw losses during BoB
 

Thanks!
I have much dislike to daily reports, but the other file seems interesting.
I am in need of rough approximates in order of obtaining a general view, and not a detailed to nut and bolt informaton. I find it intriguing some conflicting information concerning the battle, and I mean gross information.

Re: Break down of Lw losses during BoB
 

Geoff has asked to to post this:

Thanks for your help, please ask Franek what he is after and whether the
daily list as described has any merit

Re: Break down of Lw losses during BoB
 

Well, the Battle of Britain is usually shown through total numbers, but I would like to get a more detailed view by comparing shorter periods, best by sectors. It does not need to be very accurate, but rather show a general trend. I still need to verify RAF losses similar way, as there is a lot of conflicting data in regard of establishment, losses, and resupplies. Something does not add up, and I am not sure what.

Re: Break down of Lw losses during BoB
 

Geoffrey has asked me to post this:


The accounting for missing aircraft, missing or incomplete records, the usual clerical errors, that some aircraft write offs were repaired while some sent for repair were written off all create an inevitable degree of uncertainty. Both sides could and did rotate units in and out of the battle. I am not sure there was a general trend, loss ratios tightened and loosened as tactics changed and in the statistics people would worry about the total number of fighting days, whether they provide a good enough sample given all the variables. Accuracy when describing cause of loss is a big issue.

Shorter periods require more detailed loss lists, probably the best British one is at https://martinaviationpages.com/ Overall the British won the defensive fighting about 2 to 1, when you add Bomber and Coastal Command etc. the losses end up around 1 to 1.

For the time period 1 July to 31 October 1940, results from looking through the various older loss lists, Luftwaffe bombers seem to have shot down a minimum of 97 Spitfires and Hurricanes.

The evolution of the single seat fighter loss ratio, all causes July 108 Spitfires and Hurricanes to 57 Bf109s, 1.9 to 1 August 350 to 232, about 1.5 to 1 September, 343 to 234, about 1.5 to 1 October, 174 to 136 (removing the training unit Bf109s), 1.28 to 1.

Switching to losses on operations that were definitely or possibly due to enemy fighters the results look like

July 73 Spitfires and Hurricanes (Including 19 crashes, many related to night fighter training and 1 unknown), to 43 Bf109 (2 crashes, 2 unknown) August 242 Spitfires and Hurricanes (8 crashes, 7 unknown), to 185
Bf109 (4 crashes, 18 unknown)
September 267 Spitfires and Hurricanes (5 crashes, 18 unknown), to 195
Bf109 (8 crashes, 3 unknown)
October 117 Spitfires and Hurricanes (24 crashes, 3 unknown), to 112
Bf109 (9 crashes, 1 unknown)

The loss ratios, including the crashes are July 1.7 to 1, August 1.3 to 1, September 1.4 to 1, October 1 to 1

The loss ratios, excluding the crashes are July 1.3 to 1, August 1.3 to 1, September 1.4 to 1, October 0.9 to 1.

Hurricane, 181 KIA, 91 MIA, 181 wounded (50 slightly), 1 PoW, from 597 aircraft losses. Dropping the slightly wounded, the results are 45.5% of losses resulted in the death of the pilot, another 22% in the pilot being wounded, so your chances of walking away basically unhurt from a Hurricane loss was around 32.5%.

Spitfire, 135 KIA, 33 MIA, 85 wounded (26 slightly), 7 PoW from 379 aircraft losses, again dropping the slightly wounded, the results are 44.3% of losses resulted in the death of the pilot, another 15.6% in the pilot being wounded, so around 41.1% of Spitfire pilots were basically unhurt when their aircraft was destroyed.

Bf109 173 KIA, 71 MIA, 82 WIA, 188 PoW, (43 of which were wounded) versus 665 Bf109 losses, so around 37% of losses resulted in the death of the pilot, another 19% resulted in the pilot being wounded, so if you were in a Bf109 that was destroyed you had a 44% chance of surviving unhurt. As far as the Luftwaffe was concerned the permanent loss rate (KIA, MIA, PoW) was 66%, plus another 19% some of whom would not recover enough to fly fighters again. So only 15% of pilots were immediately ready to fly again.

Fighter Command for July 14 to 31 had an average of 608 operational fighters with crew, in August 702, in September 687, in October 693 as noted daily figures fluctuate a lot, from a minimum of 599 on July 23 to
740 on 24 August.

Re: Break down of Lw losses during BoB
 

The percentage of Bf.109 pilots does not seem to consider the continual inflow of pilots during the battle. That they suffered is generally agreed, but down to only one pilot in 7?

Re: Break down of Lw losses during BoB
 

Many thanks for that!
Well, there are lies, damned lies, and statistics.
Given the gross numbers discussed an absolute accuracy is not necessary, as it is more about trends.
The problem is, that the numbers usually provided, regardless of their accuracy, do not shed a light on what really had happened.
For example, there are 2,927 the Few listed, 2,353 of them British. The problem is that a one was qualified as a one of the Few following only a single op flight, which he could make in the north, not seeing an enemy. Thus, the number does not represent the number of airmen involved in the hottest southern sectors. Also, I understand the number does include Blenheim and Defiant pilots but exclude gunners, which further muddies waters.
Then I have 1,259 pilots in July and 1,796 pilots in November. The losses were 510 (407 British), out of those ~450 Hurricane & Spitfire pilots. Total losses including wounded 710.
This means that approx. 1274 pilots arrived as replacement, 574 being foreigners not requiring extensive training. Thus 673 were RAF trained, which seems a bit low to me, as I recall the monthly output was about 500 pilots. On the other hand hastily trained pilots required further training in squadrons rotated on operational rest and may have been not considered operational and thus not put into the statistics. This is of course simplification but roughly shows the problem.
Then at the end of August RAF reported shortages of pilots and rotation of airmen ceased, so there must have been some problem which is not apparent from the above.
Also , I count 61 Hurricane & Spitfire squadrons which should have an establishment of 18 aircraft and 22 pilots, thus giving 1098 aircraft and 1342 pilots. Given there was approx. 600 aircraft in average, the question is if the latter is serviceable aircraft only, but still it should suggest a bit of shortages.
Of course, this must be collated with the German data, in order to create a broader picture, hence my question.

Re: Break down of Lw losses during BoB
 

Latest from Geoffrey who is unsure how else to help with this:


For Battle of Britain trends there were two main ones, the closing of the average gap between RAF and Luftwaffe fighter pilot effectiveness and the closing of the average gap between Luftwaffe bomb damage assessments and reality. There were many changes of tactics, for example the well known withdrawal of the Ju87 units, and so many variables that plenty of statisticians would say looking for trends means consulting your Middle Earth dragon maintenance manual, unicorn section.

I do not have a good reference that breaks down aircrew strengths.
Using Wood and Dempster Fighter Command say 1,259 pilots on strength on
6 July and 1,796 on 2 November, while 2,945 aircrew flew operationally
10 July to 31 October of whom 507 were killed and about the same number wounded, if you accept the 510 killed, 710 wounded figure then end + dead + wounded = 3,016 compared with 2,945 names on the list. A difference of 71 well within the bounds of possibility given wounded but returned to unit, joined unit too late to fly operationally, with a non operational squadron, posted elsewhere etc. movement the other way is noting the 2 Defiant squadrons had 2 crew per aircraft, the 6 Blenheim ones 3, and the Beaufighter squadron made operational on 28 October had
2 crew per aircraft. The non empire contributors were 9 Irish, 7 American, 141 Polish, 86 Czech, 29 Belgian, 13 Free French, total 285, how many are counted as RAF pilot graduates is unknown. The post battle surveys of flying hours use an establishment of 23 pilots per squadron.
If that figure is correct then the authorised pilots data in Wood and Dempster includes non operation squadrons and probably flights etc. or are aircrew, not just pilots, of the operational squadrons.

In the period 15 July to 31 October Fighter Command units by day flew
42,917 intercept, 5,695 convoy, 12,691 sector, 283 shipping and 2,376 other sorties, plus 2,071 night sorties. Then comes what the crew lists define as operational sortie.

There were 6 Blenheim, 2 Defiant and 19 Spitfire squadrons operational during the battle, Hurricanes start at 27, drop to 25 for the day on 12 July then back to 27, another day at 25 on 21 July then back to 27, to
28 on 3 and 29 on 4 August, to 28.5 on 5 August, to 29 on 17 August, to
31 on 18 August, to 32 on 22 August, to 33 on 9 September, 33.5 on 8 October, 34 on 20 October, giving 46 Hurricane and Spitfire squadrons at the start and 53 at the end. There was half a Gladiator squadron
(flight) operational for a few days in July then from 9 August. All up Fighter Command had 62.5 operational squadrons on 31 October, out of 72 fighter squadrons in existence, including the 4 Blenheim ones with Coastal Command. When it comes to aircraft on 14 July the authorised strength of 6 Spitfire plus all 27 operational Hurricane squadrons was raised to 22 from 18, another 3 non operational Hurricane squadrons also had their strength raised. They all officially reverted back to authorised strength of 18 aircraft on 6 September.

Re: Break down of Lw losses during BoB
 

Here's a dumb question: Are we including combat over the continent, such as RAF Blenheim raids over France post-July 10th, or just events over England?

Re: Break down of Lw losses during BoB
 

Interesting facts: A zillion years ago, when I was first reading the JG26 War Diaries I commented about the high percentage of pilot fatalities from the planes that were shot down and I wondered if it was because the RAF Spitfire units now had cannon armed aircraft or the JG 26 pilots being shot down were inexperienced and 'panicked' when getting shot at, and committing some sort of fatal error. So obviously, being in a little aluminum tube full of gasoline and gunpowder that's getting shot to pieces is....