Ace vs. Ace
 

Since my Verifiable Victories project came a cropper. Let me ask a less demanding question.
What Ace vs. Ace encounters are you aware of:

Here are a few I can think of off the top of my head:

WWI
Lothar Von Richthofen (40) vs. Albert Ball (44) –head on passes –Lothar crash landed near Balls wreck –Ball KIA in controversial circumstances –probably damage/Thunder cloud windsheer/Vertigo/Pilot Error combo. –Germans sealed the deal in giving Lothar credit for the victory by putting a few (more?) holes in Balls fuselage –Ball crushed –no battle wounds.

WWII
Sailor Malan (32) vs. Werner Mölders (115) –Mölders WIA BoB
Helmut Wick (56) vs. John Dundas (13) vs. Rudolf Pflanz (52) BoB -28 Nov 40
Hans-Ulrich Rudel (9 Aircraft & 519 Tanks) vs. Col. Lev Shestakov (26) – Mar 44 Shestakov was KIA shooting at Rudel in Ground level pursuit –he was either shot down by Rudel’s gunner or got caught the Ju-87’s wash and stalled into ground.


Thanx,

Rob Romero

Ace vs. Ace+
 

Since my Verifiable Victories project came a cropper. Let me ask a less demanding question.
What Ace vs. Ace encounters are you aware of:

Here are a few I can think of off the top of my head

WWI
Lothar Von Richthofen (40) vs. Albert Ball (44) –head on passes –Lothar crash landed near Balls wreck –Ball KIA in controversial circumstances –probably damage/Thunder cloud windsheer/Vertigo/Pilot Error combo. –Germans sealed the deal in giving Lothar credit for the victory by putting a few (more?) holes in Balls fuselage –Ball crushed –no battle wounds.

WWII
Sailor Malan (32) vs. Werner Mölders (115) –Mölders WIA BoB -28 Jul 40
Helmut Wick (56) KIA vs. John Dundas (13) KIA vs. Rudolf Pflanz (52) BoB -28 Nov 40 –Wick was diving out of a fight and heading for home when he was bounced by Dundas who reported the victory over the air, just before getting clobbered by Pflanz who had observed Wick bailing out into the freezing English Channel.
Hans-Ulrich Rudel (9 Aircraft & 519 Tanks) vs. Col. Lev Shestakov (26) – Mar 44 Shestakov was KIA shooting at Rudel in Ground level pursuit –he was either shot down by Rudel’s gunner or got caught the Ju-87’s wash and stalled into ground.

Thanx,

Rob Romero

Re: Ace vs. Ace
 

There are no clear evidence that Mölders was shot down by Malan and Wick by Dundas. These are only speculations.

Here are Polish “trails”:

29.04.1942. W/Cdr Marian Pisarek (12-1-2) , Northolt Wing CO, was shot down and killed by Hptm. Joachim Müncheberg (135), G.Kdr II./JG 26.
09.05.1941. P/O Jan Zumbach (12 1/3-5-1 at war’s end) from 303. Squadron was shot down by Oblt. Wilhelm Stange (12), St.K. 8./JG 3. Zumbach bailed out without wounds.

On the other hand:

21.06.1941. Obstlt. Adolf Galland’s plane (104), G.Kdre JG 26, was PROBABLY hit by future Polish ace P/O Bolesław Drobiński (7-1 1/3-0 at war’s end) from 303. Squadron. Galland escaped unhurt (his Messerschmitt was 40% damaged).

Cheers,
Artur

Re: Ace vs. Ace
 

Here's a couple more:

August 18, 1940 P\O Ken Lee of 501 RAF versus Oberleutnant Gerhard Schoepfel of JG 26

October 29, 1942 W\C J.H. Nicholls of 601 RAF versus Hauptmann Wolf-Dietrich Huy of JG 77

September 24, 1940 F\O Harold Bird-Wilson of 17 RAF versus Major Adolf Galland of JG 26 (Galland's 40th victory, for which he received the Oakleaves)

Re: Ace vs. Ace
 

For World War 1, Norman Franks did a book titled Who Downed the Aces in WW I, published in 1996 by Grub Street, and reprinted in the US in 1998 by Barnes & Noble.

Frank.

Re: Ace vs. Ace
 

moalders was hit by webster,from front on,,as ive been told,by a historion,

Re: Ace vs. Ace
 

Guenther Rall vs. Hub Zemke and Shortie Rankin, May 12, 1944, 12:20 hrs, Wetzlar area. Confirmed by all three. Zemke split-S'ed after Rall had shot away his wingman, whereas Rall fell victim to Rankin's No. 2. losing his thumb and being forced to bail out. Details: Guenther Rall's reminiscences, 'My Logbook', pp. 206. See www.twentyninesix.com

Kurt

Re: Ace vs. Ace
 

http://airaces.narod.ru/spane/shestak1.jpg

Polkovnik (Colonel) Lev Lvovich Shestakov participated in two wars: SCW and GPW, had more than 600 combat missions, more than 130 aerial combats, scored 29 victoryes + more than 45 - shared.

13.3.1944, near Davydkovtzy, Hmelnitzkaya region of Ukraina. La-7 of 19 IAP engaged large group of Ju87 without any escort. Shestakov shoy down one of Ju87, then he attacked another from very close distanse (short distance attack was his personnel taktick), and attacked Ju87 after hits EXPLODED.

La-7 of Col.Shestakov was so damaged that overturned and lost any control. He wasable to use his parashute, but altitude was too small and he died.

His body was founded only when snow melted, in May 1944.

So, how could Rudel kill him, if Ju87 EXPLODED into pieces? Where did You got that info, Rob Romero?

Another information for You:

5.05.1943 Guenther Rall shot down Kapitan Vadim Fadeev (HSU, 17 victories), from 16 GvIAP.

THIS fact was prooved on Russian Forum.

Re: Ace vs. Ace
 

Didn' know that, Eugen, though I am Guenther's biographer. His flying log shows 2 missions on that day and two kills:

1. La-5, 10:09 hrs, SE Krimskaya (Gunther's No. 134 overall)
2. Airacobra, 12:09 hrs, E Krimskaya (No. 135)

Kind regards,
Kurt

Re: Ace vs. Ace
 

In Rudel's autobiography, Stuka Pilot, he discusses being pusued by a Russian Fighter at low level. The fighter crashed, wether shot down by his gunner, or caught in his turbulance in stall/turn. According to Rudel this caused a STRONG reaction on the Russian Radio frequency, and it was later determined that a top russian ace had been lost. This was further discussed here.

http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/shesta/shesta.htm

Not a 100% indication, but suggestive.

Rob

Re: Ace vs. Ace
 

My Hungarian aces book contains some Ace vs Ace engagements as well (US- Hungarian and Soviet-Hungarian stories too)

Re: Ace vs. Ace
 

No 135 is definitely Fadeyev. Since no more of Germans claimed Aircobras that day. See "Graf-Grislawski" book, there is a short notification on this case.

Re: Ace vs. Ace
 

Hello Rob
check Otto Schulze at www.luftwaffe.cz pages, lot of ace vs. ace engagements.

Juha

Re: Ace vs. Ace
 

I also mentioned several ace-to-ace combvat both in my 'Rumanian Air Force. The Prime Decade' (Squadron/Signal) and 'Rumanian Aces of World War 2' (Osprey) books.

One such incident described in details was Lt. Helmut Lipfert shooting down Adj. stag. av. Traian Dârjan, over Slovakia, on 25 Febr. 1945.
During the same incident, Rumania's top scoring ace, Cpt. rez. av. Constantin Cantacuzino, was also shot down, perhaps by another Luftwaffe ace, but he survived.

Re: Ace vs. Ace
 

Here is a link to Sukhoy Forum. Try to use any translator to find out all details of that combat mission.

http://forum.sukhoi.ru/showthread.ph...E0%E4%E5%E5%E2

If it is a problem for You, give me a time - I'll translate it to You.

Re: Ace vs. Ace
 

In volume 3 of BCRS it has VVS ace (11 victories and 5 shared) Kapt. Ivan Dmitriyevich Pidtykan as KIA by Walter Nowotny. The www.luftwaffe.cz still has the incorrect VVS ace of Alexandr Avedeev as having shot down Nowotny. Andrey Dikov posted a reply on the correct pilot who shot him down.

Re: Ace vs. Ace
 

1.06.44, near Yassy, Rudel (Ju87G-1) and two his wingmen (Ju87D-5) were engaged by group of La-5.

1 Ju87D-5 was shot down, next - second Ju87D-5 (pilot - Fikkel), and Rudel was alone vs. La-5's.

Then one of La-5 attacked Rudel, and after low-alt chasing crasghed the earth.

There are only 1 La-5 loss near Yassy at that day: La-5 from 196 IAP, pilot - leytenant Spirin (mentioned as "shot down by ground fire").

So, no connections with Shestakov.

Re: Ace vs. Ace
 

Spirin was a pilot of 193 IAP. He was lost on May 30, 1944.

Re: Ace vs. Ace
 

Here's another one from WW1: Manfred von Richthofen vs. Lanoe Hawker in 1916

Re: Ace vs. Ace
 

So, another proof of M.Zefirov's mistake in his LW series books:) SRY..

I curious about the Sukhoy Forum.
 

http://forum.sukhoi.ru/showthread.ph...%E4%E5%E5%E 2

What is their reaction to the reasearch of Dimitri Khazanov concerning Erich Hartmann (352), in which he claims that the world’s top ace only shot down 70-80 aircraft?

Have there been any other interesting conclusions (both positive and negative) about accuracy of the claims of other Luftwaffe Experten. Which Luftwaffe Experten do they recon was the greatest to fight on the eastern front?

Thanks,

Rob Romero

Re: I curious about the Sukhoy Forum.
 

Rather complicated issue. Khazanov hurried to make this article. If I were him I would have collected more records on the subject than he did. First of all it deals with more or less reliable list of Hartmann's victories as TW list in the majority of cases gives unspecified "Laggs" as victims. The main occusation from the critcs was that Khazanov used incorrect H. claims and compared these claims that H. did not filed at all.

From my experience I should say that the majority of H. claims are questionable, as they could be scarcely found in Soviet loss reports and operational documents. Here are two examples. I have already posted them in Russian on the same Sukhoi forum some time ago. They deal with H. claims on the Aircobras:

1. Septembner 26, 1943. Area of Zaporozhje. stab, III/JG52 and IV/JG51 combating against units of 8 VA. The only division equipped with Aircobras in 8 VA at that time was 9 GIAD (16, 100, 104 GIAPs). Hartman filed two claims in the morning against Aircobras plus two more of that type were claimed by Hrabak and Obleser. 9 GIAD suffered no losses that day. In comparison with this pilots of IV/JG51 shot down real Soviet planes, e.g. obliteration of group of Yak-1s from 85 GIAP, clearly confirmed by records.

2. Second episode: January 8, 1944. Area of Kirovograd. Pilots of I and III/JG52 in the air against units of 5 VA, including 7 IAK (205 IAD and 304 IAD), equipped with Aircobras. Fierce battle begun at around 15.00 (Moscow time) and lasted for approx. two hours. Groups of Yaks from 6 and 427 IAPs and 205 IAD's Aircobras took off first and immediatelly engaged formation of He-111s possibly from KG55, escorted by Bf-109s of I/JG52. On this first stage of battle none of Aircobras from 205 IAD were shot down or damaged in combat. One Aircobra conducted belly landing due to misorientation without battle damage.
On the second stage of the battle Aircobras from 69 GIAP/304 IAD entered the scene. Their task was pimarily to patrol the frontline and engage any enemy plane in the area. Thus, pair of Starshiy Leytenant Belyaev claimed one Bf-109 south-west of Kirovograd. Belyaev was himself attacked by pair of Bf-109s hunters off the clouds. With three bullet holes he conducted landing on the home field safely.
At the same time Hartmann claimed Three! Aircobras between 14.15 and 14.30.
Soviet side filed another Aircobra damaged and made belly landing. That is all.

Thus, in this two episodes from 5 claimed Aircobras, in reality one was shot up and one was possibly damaged by Hartmann.

Re: Ace vs. Ace
 

hi, could Hartmann mis-identificated the aircrafts he shot down, that kind of thing happened all the time,could he actually shot down Yaks or laags but reported shoting down aircobras instead ?

Re: Ace vs. Ace
 

Hi! The small information I do have came from The War Diaries of Hptm Helmut Lipfert, when he says he shot down a HSO whose name he did not mentions and also a female Russian pilot highly decorated. Could the specialists confirm?
I will find the book on my home and post the corrects passages later, ok? Didn´t do that because I am unable now!
Bye
Adriano

Re: Ace vs. Ace
 

That is impossible since I have collected all reports on those days. None of other losses fit in terms of time and place.

Re: Ace vs. Ace
 

Adriano,

something is wrong with that remembrance as well. On the mentioned day (IIRC 27 Oct, 1944), there were no lost HSU Soviet fighter pilot over Hungary. Maybe he confused the events with a former dogfight (but to me, that book is still the best German fighter remembrance from WW II, a fine book from a fine pilot).
BTW I found a HSU Il-2 pilot as well, who was shot down by Lipfert over Hungary (definitely by him).

Re: Ace vs. Ace
 

According http://www.luftwaffe.cz/beisswenger.html Beisswenger was shot down by Sr.Lt. Kholodow on 5th march 1943 (rammed)

Re: Ace vs. Ace
 

There are many mistakes in Kachas webpage :)

2 Csaba Becze: who was that Il-2 pilot? I will try to find him in russian sourses...

Re: Ace vs. Ace
 

Eugen, on the victory of Rall over Fadeyev on 05May43. How was the time problem solved as the translator didn't give a clear idea? The time put on the thread for take off of 16 GIAP was 13:50 (Moscow time) with return at 15:15. Rall's time was 12:09 (Berlin).

Re: Ace vs. Ace
 

Found this on www.airforce.ru . St. Lt. Avday Aleksandr Fedorovichs, 153 IAP was attacking Ju-88's in the area of New Usman, Voronyezh province. Fw Franz Schulte 6./JG77 started his attack on Fedorovichs who turned to meet him. Both a/c collided and Fedorovichs airacobra exploded. Schulte went down for a bellylanding and became MIA. Schutle had 46 victories and Fedorovichs had 7 victories (received the HSU for the ram.).

Re: Ace vs. Ace
 

Rob - more food for thought on 'aces' versus aces form 355FG.

354FS Capt Robert Woody (7 air - 4.5 in one day) shot down a pilot described as very skilled in the Eschwege area in direction of Nordhausen around 1015 which would closely match Otto Wessling from JG3 on 19 April, 1944.

357FS Hank Bille (6 air) and Les Minchew (5.5 air) and Gerald Dix 355HQ (4 air/3 ground) all had claims on 109s in Augsberg/Regensburg/Munich area in big air battle N of Munich in 1320-1345 time frame with a near certaintly that one of them shot down Schwaiger from JG3.. most likely Dix.

Either 354FS Henry Brown (14.2 air) or Norm Fortier (5.83 air) likely shot down Herman Freiherr Kapp-herr GpKdr II./JG3 in Munich area in 1350-1410 timeframe - all on 24 April 1944.

358FS Lt James McElroy (5 air) shot down Lt Ernst Erich Hirschfeld JG300 in a Fw190 and then a 109 on 28 July, 1944 in Merseburg/Naumburg/Erfurt area. (edit thx to Eric Brown)

One of the 357FS pilots Cullerton (5 air/15 ground) Elder (8 air/13 ground) or Bille (6 air/4 ground) shot down Ltn Buschmann JG3 on 16 August 1944 in Hildescheim area.

Regards,

Bill

Re: Ace vs. Ace
 

Take Berlin time and +2 hours - You will have Moskow time.

Rall's claim is 100% confirmed. Many russian historyans say this.

BTW: Is it possible to let herr Rall know about personality of a pilot who died from his fire?

Fadeev's P-39 took hits, and he was heavy injured. He was able to make emerj.landing in swamp, but died from wounds before get medical help.

Book on P-39 on East front, some info about Fadeev included.
http://www.amazon.com/P-39-Airacobra.../dp/1841762040

He flew from 08.1941 to spring of 1942 on I-16, then - from 05.42 to 05.43 - in 16 GvIAP in Yak-1 and P-39. He had 17 + 3 (shared) victories. All exept 2 (Ju88 and Ju87) are Bf109's.

Re: Ace vs. Ace
 

Eugen, Thanks for that info it helps with some of the claims found on Tony Woods list and the losses found in "Dragons on Bird Wings" for the Crimea in 1944. For some reason there they seemed to use Berlin time instead of the way they had used it else where. Course we will have to wait to Dr. Prien's volume for that time to get the full claims.

Re: Ace vs. Ace
 

Full claims of what? Only JG units?

I search for a long time SKG 210 claims, but... It seems it is impossible to find. Also as Erpr.Gr.210 claims...

P.S. About Il-2 ace and Zerstoere ace:

Efimov vs Blechschmitt. 13 07 43. I'll traslate all what I have about this fight from russian sourses... It is not clear, but... very near that Efimov was a victor, not Normandie pilot.

Re: Ace vs. Ace
 

Glenn Duncan CO, 353FG shot down Major. Weissenberger, Kdr. I/JG5 on 12 June 1944.

Re: Ace vs. Ace
 

hi, again ROB,one point, in this fight dundas vs wick, a sgt klien,was missing,too, as for my opinion, a RAF pilot,es marrs,claimed a plane.
presumed german who shot down a RAF officer watson,down e marrs,went after this german plane,for revenge,he claimed it blew up under his fire,the pilot bailed out, before,,i think this was a sgt klein,he attacked, as it was well dark at 4pm 5pm bst.one or the other, as i went around isle wight years ago at that time it was dusk ,nearly.as i think,it was kllein.a spit in the dark resembles a 109 .at a distance,i might be on a winner , as for there were no other german aircraft lost apart from wicks,well mis ID "does happen, and friendly fire,can be to blame,)well one to ponder, on,
cheers gary great reading,mat.

Re: Ace vs. Ace
 

i believe,the red barons 11th victory,the red baron had his vickers gun as a trophy and sent home in his room,some might say grusume but the red baron,was a hunter,and ive read his books, and says the trophys hed" kept" were, a memento,of his victorys,and his mum says manfred would cry at times and say i wish it would end,and as saying i dont think i will last very much longer ,this was in march 1918,he was due for some leave,but his duty,was to his country,and his sqn mates,,a true pilot.
gary,