Soviet over Finland. 25-30 VI 1941. New Article
 

There has been edited just now in Poland my long material about: Soviet over Finland, 25-30 June 1941. All text is in Polish and has English caption under photos.
This is the first such story about Soviet air attack done over Finland and Northern part of captured Norway in June 1941 edited in Poland.
Soviet aviation in these few days had done almost 1.000 combats flight (land and navy aviation), mainly over Finnish targets but also against German air force bases in Norway.

Text is supported by 23 photos + 4 color sides, and presents air action from both side. During these 6 days of air operation Soviet VVS RKKA had lost over 70 combat planes. Despite many combat flights and quite height rate of Soviet losses impact of these Soviet attacks on Finnish and Luftwaffe aviation was minimal. FAF had lost a few damaged planes after these attacks and a few next during non-combat flights.
According Soviet official history it was a big success of VVS RKKA. Soviet had officially claimed the destruction of about 130 enemy planes on airstrips and in the air. This is the quite high rate of over claiming done by Soviet command and it is simple Soviet propaganda.
Finnish and Luftwaffe units never had sustained such high rate of losses in these days. Instead the destruction of military targets much more losses were done on civil (personal and material losses among Finns).


Regards,
Mirek Wawrzynski

Sowieci nad Finlandią 25-30 czerwca 1941 roku, p. 14, 23 b&w photos, 4 color sides: G.50 FA-11 of 3./LLv 26. B.239: 2xBW-352 of 2./LLv 26; D.XXI FR-116 of 1./LLv 32, [in:] Militaria XX wieku, no 6 (15) /2006.

Re: Soviet over Finland. 25-30 VI 1941. New Article
 

Hello Mirek,

What Soviet defence regions are included in the casuality number approx. 130 aircraft for the days 25 to 30 June 1941? I presume that this might include Leningrad area? Because if it is only VVS SF and VVS KF, my own findings do not support those large figures of Soviet losses. Indeed, VVS SF and VVS KF had heavy losses during those seven days, byt my own counting of combat losses and combat damages only reaches to 53 aircraft. And that includes 27 aircraft destroyed or damaged on the ground due to German air attacks. So, the operative combat casualities for VVS SF and VVS KF for these days seem to have been 26 aircraft. 24 of these aircraft were lost. Even if also including flight accidents (that sometimes can be related to enemy actions) the total number of operative losses with VVS SF and VVS KF together only seem to reaches 31 aircraft.

Rune

Re: Some explanation
 

Hi
Some misundrestanding -130 it is claimed Finns+LW Losses
The area of the attack was as far as from air bases from Murmansk up to the South to the air bases in Northen Estonia. It was the "scope" of this air operation.

This 130 enemy planes destroy it is genaral information of claims done by Soviet VVS RKKA from the report of gen A.A. Novikov, who was commander of Leningrad Military Distric Air Forces (Northern Front). This figure is standard for enemy losses (Finns+ LW) during this 6 days period, printed in several Soviet-times materials.

It has not any confirmation with oposite side data and real losses, including small German air units based in the Northern Norway and operated over Murmansk areas.

The losses of VVS RKKA (land + navy avaition: North +Baltic Fleet) during these days and losses "over Finland", were total 73 planes (25-30 VI 41).

These figure does not included the losses done by German over Murmansk (Northen Fleet + other Soviet air bases - aviation of 14 Army - 3 air regiments). During the first day of Soviet air attack, they did lost 28 combat planes: 24 SBs + 1 I-16 + 3 I-153s.

Over Northen Norway had fought bombers of 137. BAP (SBs) + 72. SAP NF, which had done several air mission on Germany air bases - which were mainly empty - on 25 VI 41.

BTW: to the first attack on "Finland" Novikov had planned to use the air force of 540 military planes (375 bombers +165 fighters). There were used in fact less air power over "Finland" on 25 VI.

Second: air operation of LW in N.Norway (since 22 VI) and FAF air operation between 25-30 VI 41 it is for me quite different case, I have not mixed them into one thing. So, the losses of 14 Army aviation + VVS NF operated over N.Norway, if were not directly related with "Finnish air operation" are not counted in my material. The losses of VVS KBF are counted only if related Finnish areas of air operation.
There were of course several more VVS RKKA no-combat losses, done by own A/A or own air-forces or by pilots erros, which make total losses higher on Soviet side. for exaple total losss of VVS RKKA over Finalnd on 25 VI 41 were 31 planes of which 26 were lost due to the combat over Finland, there rest - 5 - were non-comabt total losses.

Regards,
mw

Re: Soviet over Finland. 25-30 VI 1941. New Article
 

I have deiscovered small type error during the writing this post
The brewsters were in LLv 24 not in LLv 26, and the correct unit of this BW-352 was not 2./LLv 26 but 2./LLv 24. There is right inforamtion in the text but wrong was on this post. Sorry for samll confusion :-(

Sowieci nad Finlandią 25-30 czerwca 1941 roku, p. 14, 23 b&w photos, 4 color sides: G.50 FA-11 of 3./LLv 26. B.239: 2xBW-352 of 2./LLv 26; D.XXI FR-116 of 1./LLv 32,

Regards
Mirek Wawrzynski

Re: Soviet over Finland. 25-30 VI 1941. New Article
 

I have read this article and I think that it is useless and full of information which has nothing to do the title.
First you have written that Soviets attacked Finladnd without declaring war and few lines later it is written that Finland declared war upon USSR. So where is the point? Other thin which is interesting in your opinion is that USSR "illegaly" attacked Finland...sorry if I had been Stalin I would have attacked country which allows enemy's forces to base on its territory. I would claim such state as my ennemy's ally. Oh yes. Finnish pilots flew with German crews on action. For me it would be a very good excuse for declaring war.
Generally speaking you could write two pages shorter article instead of this stuff about "bad" Soviets and "good" Finns.
Finishing my post I have to mension that part about combats is interesting.
In my opinion you could write an interesting book about Finnish-Soviet aerial combats...but without this political nonsense about "neutral" and "Innocent" Finland and treacherour Soviet Union.

Regards

Dominik

Re: Soviet over Finland. 25-30 VI 1941. New Article
 

Hi
Dominik
The point is, that you have very fast not exactly read what I had written, and you attached to me some opinion, which are not in this text

If you talking from Stalin point of view and accept his movments, there is for you 100% acceptable + 100% obvious, that there were no any broken agreements with Polish or Finns goverments.
So: German-Russian pact on 23 VIII 1939 was very good for Hitler and Stalin (and it was for their powers).

Dominik's text: "Other thin which is interesting in your opinion is that USSR "illegaly" attacked Finland...sorry if I had been Stalin I would have attacked country which allows enemy's forces to base on its territory."

The same case was with Finland in IX 39 and in VI 41. Fro Stalin any earlier political state's agremments did not count (witj Poland and Finnish governments), only the bigger power counts in both case.

Fine, but this is direct broken own words and own promises (signed on the paper). In some countries people say about such behaviours as a treachery. The people, states, which act this way do not have any respect among others poples/nations.

Russian had attacked independend state without any earlier notification/ declatration of war. Instead of such political declaration/move Soviet bombers had attacked Finnish terittory, then Finns declared war against Soviet.


Dominik's text: "Finnish pilots flew with German crews on action. For me it would be a very good excuse for declaring war."

You attached to me some opinion, which are not given in this text. I do not write, that Finnish and German crews went toghter into action versus Russian in VI 1941, which is total nonsens (?).
.
I also do not know any military action (attack) taken by FAF against/over Soviet targets or by Finns land forces before 25 VI 41.
A few Finns flown in German planes (Ju 88) over Soviets targets but it was LW planes, this is not the same. German had used Finn's air bases for return flights (refueling) but not for re-arming and again, fresh attack over Leningrad or Kronstad ect..


Regards,
Mirek Wawrzynski

PS
Thanks for the comments.

Re: Soviet over Finland. 25-30 VI 1941. New Article
 

Hello,

this article is typical political motivated point of view of some authors from Poland(and other countries of east Europe) after 1990. This is supported by some russian-born authors such Suvorov with his history books, that does not accept by any serioses historians.
I will see, as any other counties will be react, in such situation as was USSR and Finnland. It is clear, what the KGr806 and IV/LG1 do in Finnland at that time. And it is clear, that Finnland was involved in Germans war plans from the beginning of planing. I assume, that after winter war 1940 this was fully normal for Finnland and they want own lost area back, but I can not accept that the USSR atack in june 41 was no provokated agression !!!


Best regards


P.S. I could only reccomend the Liddel Hart book about WW2. After reading of this book some "victims" of the WW2 appeared not in good ligth.

Re: Soviet over Finland. 25-30 VI 1941. New Article
 

Quite a risky thesis. Actually, a number of serious historians found several documents supporting the thesis. But it is easier to call them politically motivated.

Re: Soviet over Finland. 25-30 VI 1941. New Article
 

Hi Franek,

could you say me this sources ? I hope, the author name is not Adolf Hitler and his appeal to the german soldiers on the east front...

And BTW, this mail I found in my mail box today and is response to my statement from 12. januar:

"Hi
Can you support his claims with any solid critics, or you want to mainly spread a "red's foam" on the net?

Second could be nice to know your real name as you want to write any such claims, if you want to look credible not idiot?

Regards,
Mirek Wawrzynski, an authhor of this story and not only."


I found, that is "very fine form" of conversation and discussion of the author of this article :-)))
Best regards,
Igor.
P.S. I don't know, that Sir Liddel Hart spread "red foam" in his book :-)))

Re: Soviet over Finland. 25-30 VI 1941. New Article
 

Hello, friends!

On 22Jun1941 between 07:38 and 10:25 (3 days before the air raids in question) finnish submarines Vetehinen, Vesihiisi and Iku-Turso laid mine barrages in Soviet territorial waters. A bit strange action for a neutral state.

Best regards,
Andrey Kuznetsov

Stalin Attack on the West and Hitler pre-emptive attack in VI 1941
 

Hi
Maybe what was wrtten by Sir Liddel Hart it is for you "the holy cow", it your point of view - not mine.

You do not know even your Russian sources prineted in 90-ties or after 2000.

When you read Mieltiuhov book - Upuszczonyj szans Stalina, Rakurs, Moscow 2002 it is evidently and several times written in the whole book.
Stalin had ordered to attack on Germany/Hitler on 12 VI 1941. This date was removed. Second date was about 15 July 1941, See. page 412

Soviet VVS RKKA had made several top's secret air mission over South-Eastern part of Poland to make reccon for future Russian invasion in May-June 1941, which was planed to be command by Zukov form South-Western Fornt. The command was erected a few days before 22 VI 41. Zukov got nomination for this post on 21 VI 1941

Russian had declared twice, openly army moblization, so called BUZ -bolszye uczebnyje zbory, 3-ed time was made top secret mobilisation, as a secret move (for about next 400.000 soldiers, also before 22 VI 1941).

When you look at marshal Shaposznikow book "The Armys' brain", you will find exactly and directly written, the mobilisation means the begining of war. This book was one of favourite for Stalin

Regards,
MirekW

PS
I do not like, when one man as so called "Igor" wants to talk, disccus, make any claims and fear to presnet his full name. More you are surprised!
That I call it as a idiot situation.
Yes, it is idiot situation for me

Re: Stalin Attack on the West and Hitler pre-emptive attack in VI 1941
 

Dear Mr.Wawrzynski,

thanks for your response. It is very nice, that I currently know what "historian base" have your work and your claims. I don't know, may be in Poland this sources looks as authentically but in circle of serioses russians historians( and I hope apparently of some groups in west, too) such books as Miljutinov are classified as junk. You are free use such works, but exept from wild fantasy of authors of these books, they contan nothing that could approve there theory.
I understand, why you didn't like Liddle Hard, he is not very likeable with pre WWII Poland. Ok, than I can propose the book of Taylor "World War 2". Or he is also "Kreml spy" ? Then I know, what you will like: OKH Chief General Oberst Fritz Halder's Diary. I can assure you: he is no communist, 100% !! Specially in Finnland case, you found many intresting things.

Best regards.

P.S. It is clear, that I didn't mark Shaposhnikow as "junk". And that the Stalin read this work show only, that he read the right books for the leader country. Each leader in each country, if he pay attention to defence policy must read this book. Even he is so "high potential" as G. Bush:)

Re: Soviet over Finland. 25-30 VI 1941. New Article
 

To Mr Igor
Sorry you do not read exactly: you have not yet showed your name?
If not Mieltiuhov or next could be Niewiezyn (from Moscow If Iam right) or a few next, who are according - very smart - Mr Igor still Unknown name, are not a "junk's" historians?

As I see - Suvorov is "duble junk" in the eyes of such top professional "hisotrian" as want to see him/herself Mr Igor still Unknown name.


Regards
mw

Re: Soviet over Finland. 25-30 VI 1941. New Article
 

I don't understand , why do you want to know my name. I'm not an author and professionals historians, I'm only reader and you are not able to buy my books because these doesn't exist :) And I have right to be here anonym and not show you my travel pass.
In my statement I only critisize your work and even not the work themself but your generally your point of view on the WW2 and your sources.

P.S. Russia in country, where many books will be published currently. But very little amount from them are serios based on archiv or other reliable sources. And this fact is not depend from political colors of there authors.
And Suvorov is not "double junk" only in my eyes and in many many books proved this thousend times.

Re: Soviet over Finland. 25-30 VI 1941. New Article
 

Hi
Good point but If I am right this information had not been know for Stalin and his General Staff. After the war (1945) it was know from Finnish sources.
When you see the memories of marschal A.A. Novikov, the whole background for Russian air agression is more then well explained from the main peoples responsible for this act of air war. See more in his memories on the net in Russian language.

Regards
MirekW

PS
Main command post for the South-Western Front had been constructed since March 1941. from this command post was planned to invade Western Europe. Zukowa was nominated on this post on 21 VI 1941.

Re: Soviet over Finland. 25-30 VI 1941. New Article
 

>Good point but If I am right this information had not been know for Stalin and his General Staff.

What was known and obvious for Soviet High Command are the facts that German planes use the Finnish territory for attacking targets near Leningrad (it's obvious just from Ju 88 range calculation) and that German troops en masse were being transferred to Finnland via ports of Gulf of Bothnic (numerous intelligence and air recce reports) all the spring of 1941.

Re: Soviet over Finland. 25-30 VI 1941. New Article
 

What was known and obvious for Soviet High Command are the facts that German planes use the Finnish territory for attacking targets near Leningrad (it's obvious just from Ju 88 range calculation) and that German troops en masse were being transferred to Finnland via ports of Gulf of Bothnic (numerous intelligence and air recce reports) all the spring of 1941.

To be clear - for gen. A.A. Novikov's air staff was such a fear, that German could use Finnish territory as a base/ airstrips for air acttack from Finnish territory on/over Leningrad. Anyway there were not installed yet any German combat air units. A few Ju 88s had used Finnish terrory for returns flights from mission over Leningrad (on 22 VI 41).

The same was about Germans intelligence and their allies reccon's flights over Sovites (FAF and ARR flights). They had observed, since March 1941 in the near borders areas (up to about 200 km) gathering "red strom" - real danger of Stalin's agression plans (movements of land, air, navy units to the assoult possitions near the border line). This agression was planned first on June 1941 and moved on July 1941 + of course 2 official declared by Stalin BUZ of RKKA.
Army mobilization, according Soviet army strategy (code BUZ from 1939) in Stalin's era, means exactly the state of war, see marschal Shaposhnikov's text.

Regards,
mirekw

Re: Soviet over Finland. 25-30 VI 1941. New Article
 

>To be clear - for gen. A.A. Novikov's air staff was such a fear, that German could use Finnish territory as a base/ airstrips for air acttack from Finnish territory on/over Leningrad.

That’s not a fear, that was a matter of fact.


> Anyway there were not installed yet any German combat air units. A few Ju 88s had used Finnish terrory for returns flights from mission over Leningrad (on 22 VI 41).


Don’t flee from your own thesis in discussion. You offered to discuss what the Soviet HQ could have in their minds, what information they have to make a decision.

They have obvious reasons and legitimate casus belly.

(And that was the exact thing Germans wanted and strived for – to accelerate Finnland to join the war).


>A few Ju 88s had used Finnish terrory for returns flights from mission over Leningrad (on 22 VI 41).

As for further details of mutual cooperation: On 22.06 and after that. Not a few, but by formations of up to 12 Ju 88s of KGr.806. Not just on return flight, but by shuttle system. Not just Leningrad/Kronstadt, but bombing Hanko area and mine-laying Stalin Channel as well.

And by the way one of Ju 88 had a Finnish navigator on board.

And German plane escorted by Finnish fighters intruded Soviet territory before 25/6 and landed Finnish sabotage/special forces unit near Stalin channel.


>The same was about Germans intelligence and their allies reccon's flights over Sovites (FAF and ARR flights). They had observed, since March 1941 in the near borders areas (up to about 200 km) gathering "red strom" - real danger of Stalin's agression plans…

For years, I don’t discuss the matters sucked by Rezun out of his finger.

So, please, don’t continue with Rezun’s ravings. It’s in vain and only shows that you are not enough historically educated.

Re: Soviet over Finland. 25-30 VI 1941. New Article
 

And again you try to desinform, see links
http://www.ww2.dk/air/lehr/lg1.htm
http://www.ww2.dk/air/seefl/kflgr806.htm

And Nowikow has his information also from POW pilot from 3./KGr806

And again: you have no reliable sources, you have only fantasies book or even you take your information from relialble book and quote these wrong, because you know that nobody due the russian language can check the information that you provide

Re: Soviet over Finland. 25-30 VI 1941. New Article
 

To Andrey: see and read the Novikov memories on page 50 (Moscow 1970). There is directly written who, when, why had decided about this particular Soviet air operation - it was Novikov's idea + his air staff, accepted by Stalin.

1. I have difficoult to talk with you becauses you do no know own Soviet sources, as is for example Novokov's memories, not only.

2. I do not know from FAF or Finnish landforces about re-arming (with bombs) of the Ju 88s, which landed in FAF's base on 22 VI. They of course had one FAF's navigator and were re-fueled for returned flight. I had written about this too as about the shot down of Ju 88 22/23 VI over Leningrad.
Re-aming, say again, with bombs and ammunition to attack Hanko, I do not every heard from Finnish side that was done between 22-25 VI 41.

Russian Rezun's inferiority complex

Czior s Rezunem. Rezun is not for me any holy's cow or icone! I do not mentioned him because there are too many errors in his books. He is not basic or fundamental as a source. Good, nice and pleasure reading and nothing more.


I do not undrestand, why you still and again supporting your thinking with Rezun's books (very not credible, written many errors, faults ect). Anyway the main point is still correct.

Not only he and also there are others in Russia like: Mieltiuhov, Niewizyn (both authors are "pure idiots", "ignorants" for you?) are writing about Stalin's plans to attack the West in summer 1941. Niewieżyn is better even then Mieltiuhov in his book.

See next also own two volumes of "1941 good. Dokumienty" Moscow 1998 - huge two books, Stalins plans and orders are clear visible.

Sorry and frankly but I have to say, you do not know your own Russian/Soviet sources, prepared by professional historians in the last 10 years in Russia, blinded by Rezun's books.
You in Russia have a total complex of Rezun. Relax, he is not any guru.

Next Russian (far away form him) authors telling the same: Stalin wanted to invade Hitler in summer 1941 (directly or indirectly).
BTW, for English readers Rezun is Suvorov and for example "Icebreaker" or few next ones - no matter which.

Regards,
MirekW


BTW
And German plane escorted by Finnish fighters intruded Soviet territory before 25/6 and landed Finnish sabotage/special forces unit near Stalin channel.
Yes I know (if I am right remeber) there were a few Brewsters for his cover and German plane could be He 115 (?).

Re: Soviet over Finland. 25-30 VI 1941. New Article
 

>To Andrey: see and read the Novikov memories on page 50 (Moscow 1970). There is directly written who, when, why had decided about this particular Soviet air operation - it was Novikov's idea + his air staff, accepted by Stalin.

So what? Why have you wrote this sentence? What for?


>1. I have difficoult to talk with you becauses you do no know own Soviet sources, as is for example Novokov's memories, not only.

Don't try to behave yourself like a mentor. Sounds bad after all.

I perfectly know all the sources you can even mention and numerous archive sources you have no idea about. So, relax, please.


>2. I do not know

So what? I have no idea why you are so verbose. Just try and answer just two questions:

a. Did Germans use Finnish territory for attacking SU by planes? yes/no
b. Did Germans used Finnish territory for placing their troops? yes/no


>Russian Rezun's inferiority complex

No. Rezun's theory is just like an UFO for scientists. Soap reading. I don't want to discuss UFOs and Rezuns ideas, I see no sense.


>I do not undrestand, why you still and again supporting your thinking with Rezun's books (very not credible, written many errors, faults ect). Anyway the main point is still correct.

You know what? You've just told exactly the standard phrase of rezunists, who finally started understand that their idol has sticky fingers.

Still I don't want to discuss it all, just keep improving yourself in history.


>Not only he and also there are others in Russia like: Mieltiuhov, Niewizyn (both authors are "pure idiots", "ignorants" for you?) are writing about Stalin's plans to attack the West in summer 1941. Niewieżyn is better even then Mieltiuhov in his book.

Meltyukhov is most serious, his deficiency is the wrong interpretation of documents. Afaik, step by step he changes his views.


>BTW, for English readers Rezun is Suvorov and for example "Icebreaker" or few next ones - no matter which.

Alexander Suvorov is the great Russian commander of the 18th century, which fought with Napoleon.

Rezun is just Rezun.