Daytime Zerstörer Aces
 

I can't say why, but I have always found Theodor Weissenberger of great interest. Perhaps it's because he seems to have had quite the varied career, flying successfully against both the Western and Eastern Allies in the Me110, the Me109 and the Me262.

It's his time flying the Me110 that I find particularly interesting. Was he the most successful daytime ace flying the Me110? Not sure if he, or Hans-Joachim Jabs is at the top.

Cheers

Re: Daytime Zerstörer Aces
 

Hptm. Schaschke from Stab ZG 76 achieved many Abschusse during summer 1941, but exact number not known. It is said he has at least 22 claims all in all to time of his death 4.8.41

Re: Daytime Zerstörer Aces
 

Hptm. Schaschke was famous for his tactic, he flew over a Soviet airfield with a high flying Bf 109, so for Soviets apparently alone, and when the Soviet fighters invariably took off to engage him, he dived on them just after they had taken off and shot them down and departed. IIRC here in Finland was understanding that for Soviets there was a strict order to engage observed enemy a/c. The order originated from very high, maybe from Stalin itself, so the commander at the airfield had no other option but to send the alarm patrol into the air. But that did not last long, the Russians placed patrols very high above the airfields and when on 4 August 1941 Schaschke arrived over Shongui airfield, the alarm patrol took off as usual and he dived into it, so the Soviet high cover dived into him. The 109 pilot probably acted more as a confirmer of Schaschke's claims than as a protector for him. See Evgeny Velichko's message 31st March 2011, 12:55 at http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/archiv...p?t-24102.html, as Evgeny says the text is very propagandist but the claim list shows that Schaschke's claims were very reliable.

Re: Daytime Zerstörer Aces
 

.. 'new' image of his crashed Bf 110's tail fin taken on 4.8.41 shows 19 Abschussbalken and three ship silhouettes... (Vol 5 of the Stipdonk/Meyer ZG/NJG series)

Re: Daytime Zerstörer Aces
 

... and on last mission he claimed at least 2. so possibly 21 in total...(ZG 76 history book)

Re: Daytime Zerstörer Aces
 

Hello Jim,

interesting topic.
I think Eduard Tratt was the top daytime Bf 110 scorer with 26 kills.

Cheers
Michael

Re: Daytime Zerstörer Aces
 

Petr Kacha had on his web page luftwaffe.cz table of Zerstorer aces. here is the list of the first few...
Maj. Eduard Tratt 38
Hptm. Werner Thierfelder 27
Hptm. Egon Albrecht 25
Hptm. Rolf Kaldrack 24
Maj. Theodor "Theo" Weissenberger 23
Maj. Helmut Viedebantt 23
ObstLt. Hans-Joachim Jabs 22
Maj. Herbert Kutscha 22
Hptm. Herbert Schob 22
Lt. Rudolf Dassow 22
Lt. Eduard Mayer 22
Lt. Richard Heller 22
Maj. Wilhelm Spies 20
Hptm. Gerhard Schaschke 20
Hptm. Johannes Kiel 20

Re: Daytime Zerstörer Aces
 

Too old entry for contemporary state of research. Looks like Evgeny give to Schaschke all soviet losses. But for example 13.7.41 over Schongui there were at least 2 claims by Carganico (2 I-16). Same for 4.8.41 - 6 claims for LaGG and 3 shot down in reality. 2 plane 4.7.41 (Ishakov and Gromov) crushed via technical problems and not in battle.

Re: Daytime Zerstörer Aces
 

Seems as if only Thierfelder might have scored more daytime kills in the Bf 110 than Eduard Tratt. But a full kill list seems impossible to procure. Why are the Zerstörer kills less well documented than the Jagdflieger kills ?

Re: Daytime Zerstörer Aces
 

Hello igorrB, thanks for the up-date
Most of my knowledge of the Northernmost air war is from late 90s, from Valtonen's Luftwaffen Pohjoinen Sivusta (The Northern Flank of the LW) etc. Now I'm slowly reading Latkin's Curtiss Kittyhawks In The Soviet Far North 1941 - 45 Volume 1, a tertiary project.

Juha

Re: Daytime Zerstörer Aces
 

Is it known who scored the most kills in the Messerschmitt Me 210 ?

Re: Daytime Zerstörer Aces
 

Good evening Gentlemen,

I just finished reading "The Messerschmitt Me 210/410 Series" by J. Richard Smith. The article says that Erprobungskommando 25 had a fighter, a bomber and a destroyer Staffel, the latter making by far the highest number of operations. It also says that it was equipped with ten Bf 110's, one Me 210 and two Me 410's.
That makes it likely that Eduard Tratt scored his kills with this unit in a Bf 110, which raises his Bf 110 daytime kills to 28. Thus, I think he's the top daytime Bf 110 ace.

Cheers,
Michael

Re: Daytime Zerstörer Aces
 

Hi Peter

I would not agree with these totals. Basically the earlier typed-out mikrofilms for the ZG units are mostly missing. With Schob his flugbuch survives showing a total(including Spain) of seventeen confirmed claims. With Jabs(and others I should think) including in his total are some by his gunner. With Weißenberger his total would be correct as his abschüßelist survives as well as his flugbuch. With almost all others mikrofilm and flugbuch/abschüßeliste are lacking and only partial knowledge of actual claims is known. But Tratt with thirty-five confirmed claims would be the top ace in this field.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Daytime Zerstörer Aces
 

Good morning Johannes,

to me the most interesting Zerstörer pilot is Rudi Dassow because he might be the Me 410 top scorer. What's your opinion about him ?

I wish you a pleasant Advent weekend, sincerely,

Michael

Re: Daytime Zerstörer Aces
 

Hi Michael

Dassow is again obscure, but his last nine confirmed(and only nine) claims would be with the Me410 all "viermots" :-

8,10.43 Stab./ZG 26 B-17 1535 hrs
11,12.43 4./ZG 26 B-17 Südlich Nordeney 1220 hrs
22,2.44 4./ZG 26 B-17 bei Bielefeld 1550 hrs
11,4.44 4./ZG 26 B-17 S-W Baltic Sea 1155 hrs
11,4.44 4./ZG 26 B-17 into the sea nordlich Kammin 1205 hrs
29,5.44 4./ZG 26 B-24 S-W Bornholm 1330 hrs
20,6.44 II./ZG 26 B-24 N-W Rügen 0915 hrs
20,6.44 II./ZG 26 B-24 Insel Rügen 0915 hrs
20,6.44 II./ZG 26 B-24 Wittow/Rügen 0920 hrs

Times seem to be rounded-off to five minutes. Not sure what his total was, but twenty-two confirmed in the West is often quoted for him.....but that doesn't mean it's correct.

Best Regards

Johannes

Re: Daytime Zerstörer Aces
 

Johannes, R U sure that in October and December 1943 II./ZG 26 already had Me 410s??? I do not think so...

Re: Daytime Zerstörer Aces
 

II./ZG 26 had Me 410 from October onwards:
https://ww2.dk/oob/bestand/zerst/biizg26.html

Re: Daytime Zerstörer Aces
 

checking the loss lists, first Me 410 losses of II. Gruppe ZG 26 occured last day of October 1943. So I assume that the at least 8.10.1943 claim is very questionable to be achieved in Me 410. It is true that Tratt was familiar with Me 410 from EKdo times and might be among the first pilots to settle it at II. Gruppe ZG 26, but still, it is at least 50/50.

Re: Daytime Zerstörer Aces
 

Hello Peter

wasn't Dassow's 8Oct43 B-17 claimed as a member of Stab/ZG 26 (equipped with Bf 110) ?
Otherwise... Stab/ZG26 was reformed on 13Oct and Dassow's 4./ZG1 was renamed into his later 4./ZG26 on 11Oct.

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Daytime Zerstörer Aces
 

most probably... so it counts to Zerstorer statistics but not to Me 410 tally ..

BTW, "A History of the Mediterranean Air War, 1940 - 1945, Volume 3" mentions Lt. Dassow to claim on 1 March 43 as ZG 1 member a B-24 and 9/10.3.1943 a Spitfire... so plus one more to the "Zerstorer statistics"?

Re: Daytime Zerstörer Aces
 

Good evening,

unfortunately, info about Rudi Dassow in scarce in Robert Forsyth's OSPREY volume "Me 210/410 Zerstörer Units". On p44 the Spitfire claim on 9Apr43 is described as well as a probable B-24 on 1Mar43 that is verified by loss records and for which he received an Italian decoration. Therefore, it might have been confirmed and credited to his total later.

Cheers,

Michael

Re: Daytime Zerstörer Aces
 

Hi Peter

The earlier typed-out mikrofilms per staffel none survive for ZG 1, but the daily claims sheets East and West would appear to have started mid-1942 for ZG 1 none are logged for Dassow at all for ZG 1, perhaps they were claims that were unconfirmed.
I do know the numbers for II./ZG 1 prior to the Russian campaign, but numbers only, no names, dates or anything.

I am no expert on what type of aircraft a pilot would fly, so will not comment.

Just out of interest what aircraft were 5./SKG 210 flying during 1941, because Herbert Kutscha makes a whole load of claims with this unit at this time, I was wondering naively if he could have been flying the Me210?, though it does look a little early.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Daytime Zerstörer Aces
 

"Just out of interest what aircraft were 5./SKG 210 flying during 1941, because Herbert Kutscha makes a whole load of claims with this unit at this time, I was wondering naively if he could have been flying the Me210?, though it does look a little early."

II./SKG 210 had only Bf 110s in use as far as I know. So he must have claimed flying Bf 110...

Kutcha receiver Ritterkreuz after 21st victory. His first two were at 5./JG 77, 3 at ZG 1, the 3 at ZG 76, and up to 21 (23?) with SKG 210/ZG1. However his first documented claim at JG3 I wa able to find has note as his 25th personal, so he might have added couple more while at Bf 110.
The last photo of his Bf 110 tail, I know, wears 22 victory bars...

Br

Peter

Re: Daytime Zerstörer Aces
 

I visited Herbert Kutscha many years ago, but unfortunately he had no documents at all.

Re: Daytime Zerstörer Aces
 

On 4.9.1943, while already at JG3, there was written a report about Kutscha by his CO. It states: "...He claimed as Zerstorer pilot 22 victories within 250 missions, and 7 victories on 28 missions as dingle-engine fighter pilot (of these are three fourengine bombers)."
So we may assume he had 22 victories as Zerstorer as total (minus?including?plus those 2 at 5./JG 77 at the beginning of his career).

Re: Daytime Zerstörer Aces
 

Hi Guys

There is a type of mikrofilm that is for pilots claims only, but is only starting half way through the "K's" and ends half way through the "L's". It gives a date and time only, and usually just has what is on the other mikrofilms anyway. In this instance it provides claims for 14.12.1939 1550 hrs and 31.01.1944 1520 hrs which were not as a ZG pilot, however his bordfunker Martin Heinze's flugbuch has survived for the 5./SKG 210 claims, and three are recorded on the mikrofilms anyway, I estimate these to be claims 8-16, these are the flugbuch only claims:-

15th July 1941 Boston bei flugplatz Schatalowka 1305-1445 hrs nr.9
7th October 1941 R-5 N-E Vyazma 1125-1315 hrs nr.12
22nd October 1941 Po 63 SW Moscow X 2 1035-1210 hrs nr.13-14
9th December 1941 (type unknown) south of Livny 1000-1120 hrs nr.15
19th December 1941 (type unknown) NW Yelets 1030-1150 hrs nr.16.

I would calculate he had twenty-one claims as a ZG pilot assuming those above were confirmed, and thirty-nine confirmed overall.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Daytime Zerstörer Aces
 

Guys

Regarding Heller the total is sixteen plus another by his bordfunker Heinz Bowers all from 26.08.1940-09.10.1943. All on the mikrofilms. I would regard sixteen as fact.

With Kiel only his last appears on the mikrofilms(17.04.1943)

With Viedebantt only list last two(from 1942) appear on the mikrofilms.

With Albrecht eighteen on the mikrofilms, probably some earlier as well.

With Kaldrack only his last three on the mikrofilms.

With Mayer, Spies and Thierfelder none on the mikrofilms.

With Jabs twenty as ZG(seventeen early + two for bordfunker Erich Weißflog, and his last three during 1945)

So twenty + as a ZG pilot is very rare indeed.

What we really need are some abschüßetafel for these units.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Daytime Zerstörer Aces
 

Good evening Johannes & Co,

I wish you a good New Year's Eve and a fine start into a pleasant new year 2026 !

Cheers,

Michael