Heinrich Prinz zu Sayn Wittgenstein Early Career
 

Theo Boiten and myself have been in conversation about this. Heinrich was a Beobachter, apparently with III./KG 1 before undergoing pilot training late 1940. He then starts as a night fighter pilot in August 1941 but did he fly again with KG 1 or as some accounts say KG 51, KG 54 and KG 30? 8 months or so conversion training? His EP awarded in Sep 41 was as a Kampfflieger

Re: Heinrich Prinz zu Sayn Wittgenstein Early Career
 

Hello Chris, hello Theo,

I will check the private archive I got from my old friend Theo van der Steen, because it contains copies of (a) letter(s) of Heinrich's sister, whether it says something about his early career. And of course there is a book written about zu Sayn-Wittgenstein, can't remember the author at this late hour, will look for it tomorrow.

Good night ! Marcel

Re: Heinrich Prinz zu Sayn Wittgenstein Early Career
 

Hi Chris,
I checked two books:

• "Laurels for Prinz Wittgenstein" by Werner Roell, Independent Books, 1994, ISBN 1-872836-06-2
• "Princes of Darkness" by Claire Knott, Classic Publications, 2008, ISBN 978-1-903223-95-6

Roell is frustratingly vague about Wittgenstein's early years, but does state that he joined the Stab Staffel of KG 54 at Fritzlar in the winter of 1938/39. (Ditto in Knott.)
Knott's book is more detailed about the ensuing period (up to Jan 1942), but contains some errors and apparent contradictions.

Here's the chronology as best I can make out:
- From early 1939 to Dec 1939, Wittgenstein flew with Stab KG 54 as a Beobachter.
- In Jan 1940, he joined the Gruppe Stab of III./KG 1. He started flying operational missions in a He 111 as Beobachter from May 13 to 4 Sep 1940.
- From Sep to Oct 1940, III./KG 1 was re-equipped with the Ju 88.
- From mid-Nov to Dec 1940, he may (or may not) have flown night missions against England.
- In the winter of 1940/41, he went to flying school and got his qualification for blind flying. He was already applying for transfer to the Nachtjagd at this time.
- In Mar 1941, he returned to III./KG 1 as a pilot, flying missions against England until May 1941.
- In Jun 1941, the Gruppe was relocated to the Eastern Front, where Wittgenstein flew missions as a member of 7./KG 1 until at least Nov 1941.
- Around this time, it appears he was transferred to KG 51, because Knott states that he left KG 51 in Jan 1942.
- In Jan 1942, he joined the Nachtjagd and scored his first night victory on 6/7 May 1942.

I've enclosed photos of the relevant pages (44, 45, and 73) from Knott.

Hope that helps,
Leon Venter


http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/pictur...pictureid=1811


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Re: Heinrich Prinz zu Sayn Wittgenstein Early Career
 

Thanks both but you can see my problem. I have seen a document which states he moved to NJG 2 in August 1941. It says he left KG 51 but doesn't say when (or if) he joined KG 51 so is this a typo? 150 missions between June and November 1941 seems incorrect as he is credited with 150 missions total on bombers and it would appear he had flown his 60th on 9 Mar 41. It appears that his FB at least for 1940/early 1941 still exists? It is a shame his Wehrpass didn't survive-I am working with Lent's at the moment which is very precise and useful

Re: Heinrich Prinz zu Sayn Wittgenstein Early Career
 

Yes, it'd be great to find such conclusive evidence. In the meantime, here are 3 anecdotal indicators suggesting that he was still serving as a Kampfflieger until Nov 1941:

• (weak) The Kommodore of NJG 2, Karl Hülshoff, recalls Wittgenstein joining NJG 2 "in the winter [of 1941/42]" -- Roell, p.53.
• (medium) On 15 Oct 1941, Wittgenstein wrote a letter to his parents while on leave in Munich. He closes the letter by saying that, in a few days, he'll "have to go back again to the north-east, probably only for a short time this year." -- Knott, p.73.
• (strong) There are several dated photos from Wittgenstein's photo album depicting raids on Soviet targets from 19 Sep to 1 Nov 1941 (presumably notated by Wittgenstein himself.) -- Knott, pp.62-65.
  (Interestingly, there is gap in the photograph dates from 30 Sep to 29 Oct 1941, which would seem to correspond with his leave in Munich.)

Possibly -- it seems very weird.

Agreed, it seems Knott doesn't account for the missions flown before Jun 1941.

FYI, here are the errors I noted in Gerhard Baeker's account in Knott:
- p.44, mid-page: He states that he was posted to Burg in "January 1941" for the formation of III./KG 1. This should obviously be "January 1940".
- p.45, 4th para: "After [Wittgenstein] was killed at the end of January 1943 ...". Knott caught this one and corrected it to "1944".
- p.45, 3rd para: He says that Wittgenstein had been posted to the Nachtjagd in "September 1941". It's understandable that he was mistaken about this date because he was hospitalized for 6 months after a belly-landing on 10 Aug 1941.

Regards,
Leon Venter

Re: Heinrich Prinz zu Sayn Wittgenstein Early Career
 

Thanks Leon. Irritating isn’t it!

Re: Heinrich Prinz zu Sayn Wittgenstein Early Career
 

Very interesting. Does any of this books specify if Sayn-Wittgenstein scored all of his kills in the Ju 88 (or if he scored one, possibly the one on 23Jun1943, in the Bf 110) ?

Re: Heinrich Prinz zu Sayn Wittgenstein Early Career
 

Yes, especially because he was such a prominent figure. His family would certainly have received all his documents, logs, and awards. The answers to your questions are likely languishing in a family vault or some private collector's hoard. Hope they'll see the light of day sometime.

I would've wagered that Theo Boiten would have the silver bullet, but maybe someone else does ...

Re: Heinrich Prinz zu Sayn Wittgenstein Early Career
 

I couldn't find a mention of Wittgenstein's flight in the Bf 110 in either the Roell or Knott books, but Peter Hinchliffe does refer to it in his book "The Other Battle: Luftwaffe Night Aces Versus Bomber Command".

On page 140, Hinchliffe says:
"Wittgenstein and Kümmritz flew [the Bf 110] for just one day: that same night, in late May, their Bf 110 was unserviceable, so they took off in their Ju 88C and shot down four Lancasters, after which Wittgenstein ... refused to fly the Bf 110 and continued to use his 'own' Ju 88."

According to the only Abschussliste I could find for Wittgenstein (the one in "Luftwaffe Aces - Biographies and Victory Claims, Vol. 4" by Mathews and Foreman), there is just one night in mid-1943 in which he shoots down 4 RAF bombers, namely June 24/25. If this is correct, then it means that either:
a) His experiment with the Bf 110 earlier that day (June 24) didn't produce any kills.
OR
b) Hinchliffe is wrong and Wittgenstein actually flew the Bf 110 a day earlier (i.e. on June 23), when he shot down a Stirling.

I checked various other books (Boiten's fine volumes, Balss, Bowman, etc.), but couldn't find any additional info.

Regards,
Leon Venter

Re: Heinrich Prinz zu Sayn Wittgenstein Early Career
 

Dear all,

Wittgenstein's Personalakte in the BAMA is MSG 150/163 but has not been digitised yet, I only have a few pages from this document. I have not been able to get hold of a copy of his (NJ) Flugbuch and/or Leistungsbuch through his family.

Cheers, Theo

Re: Heinrich Prinz zu Sayn Wittgenstein Early Career
 

As I said in my first post, Theo and myself have been in conversation about this hence the post. It is a source of irritation to both of us and others I think!

Re: Heinrich Prinz zu Sayn Wittgenstein Early Career
 

Hi Chris and Theo,Yes, understood. My comment about Theo was merely to imply that if he didn't have the answers, then they probably weren't available anywhere (yet).

Theo, thanks very much for the BAMA reference. It's good to know that the answers might eventually be revealed.

As is often the case, Chris' original post spurred me to read some of the available literature on a particular subject. As always, it was a very worthwhile and interesting exercise. Wittgenstein was a rather remarkable person, and I learned a lot in the process. Thanks for providing the stimulus.

Regards,
Leon Venter

Re: Heinrich Prinz zu Sayn Wittgenstein Early Career
 

Thanks a lot for checking !

Michael