Uffz. Wilhelm Weber, 10./JG 51
 

Hello everyone,
On September 22, 1943, Uffz. Wilhelm Weber (29 kills, EP, DK), a member of 10./JG 51, died in a plane crash (KIFA) west of Kamensk (today Kamensk-Shakhtinsky, Russia). Is the cause of the crash known? He probably died in a Bf 109 G-6. At that time, 10./JG 51 had Fw 190 A-6 and Bf 109 G-6 aircraft. Does anyone know the type of aircraft and its W.Nr., please?
Thank you very much, have a nice day.

Unteroffizier Wilhelm Weber, 10./JG 51
 

Hi Gaston

22 September 1943: Unteroffizier Karl-Heinz Weber (29 victories) of 10./JG 51 killed in Bf 109 G-6 (W.Nr. 15 867) which crashed due to bad weather on a ferry flight four kilometers west of Kamenskoje

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Uffz. Wilhelm Weber, 10./JG 51
 

Hi Gaston

I agree with Leo, it was Karl-Heinz Weber with thirty-one confirmed claims all between 8th June 1943 and 20th September 1943. The mikrofilms display both surname and forename. He was active at exactly the same time as the eichenlaubträger Karl-Heinz Weber of 7./JG 51(133 confirmed claims). Don't think your man got the DKiG though.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Uffz. Wilhelm Weber, 10./JG 51
 

Hi Leo and Johannes,

Thank you very much for the information.
It's interesting because in the OKL lists of victories in the East, Uffz. Weber is listed as Wilhelm. Yes, both Webers achieved multiple kills on some of the same days. Fortunately, they cannot be confused thanks to their ranks and staffel (7./JG 51 vs. 10./JG 51). Is it possible that his full name was Wilhelm Karl-Heinz Weber? This pilot, born in 1923, was awarded the EP two days before his death on September 20, 1943, together with Rudolf Wagner from 10./JG 51.
Johannes: May I ask on which days you have two extra victories?
Uffz. Weber shot down 27 aircraft from June 8, 1943, to August 5, 1943, and then the last two (28th and 29th victories) on September 20, 1943.
OKL has this pilot's victories listed as follows: 2x June 8, June 14, June 28, 3x July 5, 4x July 6, 2x July 9, July 11, 5x July 13, 4x July 14, 2x July 17, 2x August 5, 2x September 20.
Johannes, you're right, Uffz. Weber probably never got DK.
Thank you very much, have a nice day.

Re: Uffz. Wilhelm Weber, 10./JG 51
 

Hi Gaston

Would appear the extra/missing two are 6th July1943(Kursk)Generally JG 51 were an honest bunch, all Weber's were with 10./JG 51:-

6th July 1943 als unteroffizier:-

Il-4 10km SSE Trosna 0427 hrs 500 metres nr.8
Il-4 20km SSE Trosna 0430 hrs 250 metres nr.9
Il-2 North of Pomgri 0438 hrs 150 metres nr.10
Il-2 North of Pomgri 0442 hrs 200 metres nr.11
La-5 15km NNW Maloarkhangelsk 1135 hrs 500 metres nr.12
La-5 10km SE Glazunowka 1140 hrs 150 metres nr.13

Total per typ:-

Il-2 =6
Il-4 =8
Boston= 6
La-5= 6
LaGG-3= 4
MiG-3=1

His four on 14th July 1943 were disputed=A.S.M, lack of air witness most likely as all claimed between 1840-1853 hrs at very low altitude.

Let me know which two are additional?

Kind Regards

Johannes

P.S

Regarding name, could be Wilhelm Karl-Heinz Weber, often on the mikrofilms they are differing to what we expect(Oskar-Heinz Bär for one), guess we would need date of birth details to find out.

Re: Uffz. Wilhelm Weber, 10./JG 51
 

Uffz. Karl-Heinz Weber was born 01-02-1923

Re: Uffz. Wilhelm Weber, 10./JG 51
 

Hi Johannes,

Great! Thanks for the info. I don't have any records of two La-5s (11:35, 11:40). Hopefully, we'll be able to find out his full date and place of birth someday.
Thank you, have a nice day.

Re: Uffz. Wilhelm Weber, 10./JG 51
 

Born in Morchenstern/Sud., nowadays Smrzovka, Czech Republic

Re: Uffz. Wilhelm Weber, 10./JG 51
 

Hi John,

Great! Thank you for the information. I am currently in the Czech Republic, and I will try to search for Weber in the Smržovka records to find out his full name. If I succeed, I will let you know.
Thank you, have a nice day.

Re: Uffz. Wilhelm Weber, 10./JG 51
 

Hi John and Gaston.

Firstly thank you John for the Birth details, I do have a question about this though. I assume you mean born 1st February not 2nd January, just came back from Nigeria, Visa was a nightmare, landing card even worse, and they used the European way for dates, but not for one single date which was the American way, anyway thought it was a mistake on the visa preventing me getting a landing card, but they just did things two different ways!.....no doubt to stop any confusion.

With the two additional claims I have just checked the daily mikrofilm claims just to be sure I had not made a mistake and they are clearly Weber anerk:- 307 & 309, but only rank, no forename. So I got the forename from somewhere else, but there is a secondary daily mikrofilm which just mostly duplicates JG 51's claims, so may have got it from there?

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Uffz. Wilhelm Weber, 10./JG 51
 

It'is February 1st.

Re: Uffz. Wilhelm Weber, 10./JG 51
 

Hi Johannes,
I looked again at the OKL for July 6, 1943, comparing it with Oblt. Weber from 7./JG 51. And I see two La-5s shot down at the same time, 11:35 and 11:40, by Oblt. Weber from 7./JG 51. Uffz. Weber from 10./JG 51 has four kills there. So what I wrote originally still holds true. You accidentally put Oblt. Weber's kills there. So Uffz. Weber actually has a total of 29 victories.
The main thing is that you're home from Nigeria.
Have a nice day.

Re: Uffz. Wilhelm Weber, 10./JG 51
 

Hi Gaston

Many thanks for that, so another mikrofilm slip-up, there are quite a few. Sometimes claims are repeated exactly twelve months later in the West with night claims, and Günther Rall's 199th and 200th are repeated exactly a month later.

Thanks John for confirming the Date of Birth.

Judging by the differing handwriting the daily mikrofilms were compiled by several people in my opinion, and sometimes the handwriting is just awful.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Uffz. Wilhelm Weber, 10./JG 51
 

Hi Gaston

Actually I can't find the claims for 7./JG 51 that match those of 10./JG 51, what are the anerk numbers please?

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Uffz. Wilhelm Weber, 10./JG 51
 

Hi Johannes,

Here are the anerk numbers:
Oblt. Karl-Heinz Weber, 7./JG 51, July 6, 1943:
06.07.43 Oblt. Karl-Heinz Weber 7./JG 51 LaGG-3 … 63 724: at 1,300 m. 04.21 Film C. 2032/II Anerk: Nr. 413
06.07.43 Oblt. Karl-Heinz Weber 7./JG 51 Il-4 … 63 544: tiefst. 04.35 Film C. 2032/II Anerk: ASM
06.07.43 Oblt. Karl-Heinz Weber 7./JG 51 Il-4 … 63 693: lowest altitude 09.18 Film C. 2032/II Anerk: No. 429
06.07.43 Oblt. Karl-Heinz Weber 7./JG 51 LaGG-5 … 63 392: at 500 m. 11.35 Film C. 2032/II Anerk: Nr. 307
06.07.43 Oblt. Karl-Heinz Weber 7./JG 51 LaGG-5 … 63 364: at 150 m. 11.40 Film C. 2032/II Anerk: Nr. 309
06.07.43 Oblt. Karl-Heinz Weber 7./JG 51 LaGG-5 … 63 754: at 2,000 m. 13.21 Film C. 2032/II Anerk: Nr. 429

Uffz. Wilhelm Weber, 10./JG 51, July 6, 1943:
06.07.43 Uffz. Wilhelm Weber 10./JG 51 Il-4 … 63 572: at 250 m. 04.30 Film C. 2032/II Anerk: Nr. 295
06.07.43 Uffz. Wilhelm Weber 10./JG 51 Il-2 m.H. … N. Ponyri: at 150 m. 04.38 Film C. 2032/II Anerk: Nr. 297
06.07.43 Uffz. Wilhelm Weber 10./JG 51 Il-2 m.H. … N.Ponyri: at 200 m. 04.42 Film C. 2032/II Anerk: Nr. 298
06.07.43 Uffz. Wilhelm Weber 10./JG 51 Il-4 … 63 544: at 500 m. 07.27 Film C. 2032/II Anerk: Nr. 293

Johannes, Anerk 307 and 309, which are listed under Oblt. Weber from 7./JG 51, are clearly incorrect and should correctly belong to Uffz. Weber, as you correctly wrote, because 10./JG 51 achieved Anerk numbers 293 to 313 on that day.
Meanwhile, 7./JG 51 had the following Anerk numbers: 412 to 431.
Please take a look at Anerk 307 and 309.

Thank you.

Re: Uffz. Wilhelm Weber, 10./JG 51
 

Hi Gaston

Thanks for your detailed reply.

Please tell me the exact source of your claims?

The mikrofilms absolutely show Uffz Weber of 10./JG 51 making the 1135 and 1140 hrs claims.

With converting the grid references into actual places, My friend and JG 52 specialist Bernd Barbas supplied me with some very detailed grid references maps, but you need to know where your unit is at what time as they repeat i.e West to East they will be 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,1,2,e.tc, each grid refence is divided into nine quadrants(by memory) so two dis-similar refences could be neighbours, and two exactly matching reference numbers could be hundreds of kilometres apart.

It's not so difficult working out the North to south unit areas for a unit because basically JG 52 was in the far South, JG 54 the far North, and JG 51 in the middle.

Sometimes and usually JG 51 the mikrofilms give place names rather than grid references.

Kind Regards

Johannes

Re: Uffz. Wilhelm Weber, 10./JG 51
 

Hi Johannes,

I've had the source for 22 years; it used to be freely available for download on the internet. Unfortunately, the website no longer exists. Maybe it's on some new website somewhere. But don't bother searching for it, I'll send it to you by email.
Thank you for the clarification, another error found and corrected. It is now clear that these are Uffz. Weber's victories, a total of 31 victories.
On July 6, 1943, 7./JG 51 and 10./JG 51 were based together in Orel.

Thank you, have a nice day.