Command Atlantic, December 1943.
 

Colleagues.

Is there any information about the counteraction of Command Atlantic aircraft to Allied air attacks on blockade runners in the Bay of Biscay in late December 1943? I read that the Pietro Orseolo was sunk by Beaufighters off Lorient on December 18th, that the Germans repelled bomber attacks on the Osorno on December 25th with anti-aircraft artillery, and that the Alsterufer was bombed to bits on December 27th, like a target practice. Furthermore, on December 28th, the German force attacked by Allied ships and aircraft in the Bay of Biscay had no air cover. Were the Germans really that badly off with aircraft in the area at that time?

sergey

Re: Command Atlantic, December 1943.
 

This is covered in my book on the Fw 200 and also the book on KG 40. Weather was very bad, few I./ZG 1 missions could be flown which left it to KG 40's Fw 200s, He 111s , 129's BV 222s and FAG 5's Ju 290s. Nick Beale will no doubt have this chapter and verse

Re: Command Atlantic, December 1943.
 

There was bad weather on December 27 and 28, but the British attackers made no mention of German fighters on December 18 and 25.

Re: Command Atlantic, December 1943.
 

Only fighters able to get that far out might have been I./ZG 1 and 7./ZG 1 and they did not get involved in anything if they were flying at all. I have the reports for those dates and could have a closer look but doubt it would reveal anything of note

Re: Command Atlantic, December 1943.
 

On December 24 (I previously wrote the 25th by mistake), Halifaxes of 502 Squadron attacked Osorno and its escort nine times between 17:00 and 19:08 (detected at 45º30´N 10º48´W). There is no mention of German aircraft, although this is not far from German airfields.

Re: Command Atlantic, December 1943.
 

Fighter sweeps by ZG 1 were in the morning and another fighter sweep by 4 Fw 190s was also AM and returned early due to bad weather. It would appear from Luftflotte 3 that few if any German aircraft were airborne late afternoon/evening over Biscay region. It would also appear that 502 Sqn had to find the ships by using radar and conditions were hazy/it might be getting dark which would explain why no day fighters. Only night fighter unit was Kdo Kunkel and that makes no mention/had limited number of aircraft

Re: Command Atlantic, December 1943.
 

The first sighting was on December 24th visually, although the cloud cover was 5/10 with a base of 3000 feet.

Re: Command Atlantic, December 1943.
 

This coming from the man who literally wrote the book!
From Air Operational Watch reports in National Archives HW 13/37:

24 December: 8 sorties by 1./128 from Brest (Fw 190s) and 14 by Ju 88s of I./ZG 1; from KG 40, 6 He 177s and 9 Fw 200s; 1 Ju 88 heard between 2115 and 2310 BST, thought to be Kdo. Kunkel night fighter; 1 Ju 88 of 1.(F)/123 on reconnaissance.

25 December: 7 Fw 200s up from 1030 BST, staying in the air for 12 hours. "Escort to the blockade-runner Osorno reported at 0414/25 continuous bombing, and requested fighters from first light. Continuous fighter escort was not possible due to the situation with reard to forces available, but the following were to operate: 14 Ju 88s up at about 1100, 10 Ju 88s up at 1445 … returning 1830 … Close escort by Fw 190s was also intended for the ships as soon as they should come within s/e fighter range, which was expected to be about 1500."

26 December: Bf 109s to cover the Gironde Estuary for the arrival of Osorno.

27 December: reconniassance for Alsterufer started on the 26th and continued on the 27th but the Allies don't seem ot have detected any Ju 88 fighter activity. However the reports says: A ship tought to be Alsterufer was sighted by Coastal Comman at 1030 in 46º 50' N, 19º 29' W, course East, 15 knots and was shadowed. At about 1700 a Liberator of 311 Squadron made an attack evidently on this ship and has reported that the ship was set on fire and sank, about 70 survivors seen in 4 lifeboats.
28 December: reconnaissance for the blockade runner carried on so it seems the Germans didn't know it had been sunk.

On 3 December, Flifü Atlantik had 16 (7) Fw 200s; 26 (11) He 177s; 64 (32) Ju 88 fighters; 9 (6) Fw 190s. For reconnaissance 7 (3) Ju 290s and 9 (2) Ju 88s. Kdo. Kunkel had 7 (0) Ju 88 night fighters.

If you want more from the German side you can get the Kriegsmarine diary for December 1943 here: https://opus4.kobv.de/opus4-zmsbw/so...s/id/1/rows/10
Each month can be downloaded in pdf format and is searchable, so you can just search for Osorno and Altersufer and see what comes up.

Re: Command Atlantic, December 1943.
 

Nick, thank you very much!

Re: Command Atlantic, December 1943.
 

There were very few fighter assets in western France in Dec 43. Basically the single-seaters were 12./JG 2 and 1./128 but these tended to be further north and they could not go too far west. Thus the Ju 88C-6s and R-2s were the only credible fighters that had the range out into the Bay of Biscay

Re: Command Atlantic, December 1943.
 

In the 143 Squadron log for December 24, I saw an entry stating that five Beaufighters engaged two He-177s at 1:50 PM over the Bay of Biscay. They lost one of their own, but claimed to have shot down one German aircraft. Is there any confirmation of the loss from the German side?

Re: Command Atlantic, December 1943.
 

All is covered in my book on KG 40. The two losses are correct and I can cut and paste from my book if you wish.

Re: Command Atlantic, December 1943.
 

If you have an interest in Luftwaffe operations over the Atlantic then I suggest these books:

‘Bloody Biscay’ and ‘KG 40, an Operational History’ by Chris Goss
‘Shadow Over the Atlantic’ by Robert Forsyth (about FAGr. 5 and the Ju 290)
‘La Wekusta 2 au Combat’ by Pierre Babin
‘La Kampfgeschwader 100, l’Escadre au Drakkar’ by Jean-Louis Roba

Re: Command Atlantic, December 1943.
 

The next few weeks were quiet for obvious reasons and the next incident did not occur until 24 December 1943. At 0630hrs in the morning, six He 177s took off in pairs on an armed reconnaissance of the Bay of Biscay which, due to the poor weather, was uneventful until 1330hrs when four Bristol Beaufighters were spotted.
At 0950hrs, four Beaufighters from 143 Sqn had taken off from Portreath in Cornwall on an interceptor patrol. Leading the patrol was Australian Sqn Ldr Bill Moore, a Battle of Britain veteran and who was waiting on his promotion to Wg Cdr. At 1250hrs, two He 177s were spotted and Bill Moore lead the attack, closing in to 200yds and opening fire. However, he had got too close to the defensive armament of the He 177 A-3 flown by Lt Richard Kranz of 4./KG 40 and to the horror of the other three RAF crews, there was a 'vivid flash in front which caused aircraft 'N' to disintegrate'; Bill Moore and his navigator Plt Off Phil Froment were killed instantly. The remaining Beaufighters flown by Flt Sgt David Howley, Flt Sgt Bob Gillchrist and American 1st/Lt Ray Dymek then attacked with the latter carrying out three attacks which set the starboard engine on fire after which the bomber glided down, hit the sea, disintegrated and burst into flames. There were no survivors.

Re: Command Atlantic, December 1943.
 

Yes, please. Two more vehicles from II/KG 40 were lost on December 25 and 28?

Re: Command Atlantic, December 1943.
 

Thank you. I'm currently interested in the actions of German (and Allied) aircraft during Operation Stonewall.

Re: Command Atlantic, December 1943.
 

25 Dec 43 was returning to Bordeaux from Lorient having diverted there the day before. Shot down by 183 Sqn. 28 Dec 43 was shot down by 157 Sqn. 28 Dec also saw a Condor ditching on ops due to engine fire. Again, all of this is in my KG 40 book

Re: Command Atlantic, December 1943.
 

For December 1943 RL 2-II/4324 at invenio might also be of interest, as well as RM 7/1421

regards,
Pawel

Re: Command Atlantic, December 1943.
 

As far as I know, this plane made an emergency landing on the water, that is, it was lost, and its crew was picked up by an English ship. By the way, He 177 A-3 NN+QY (No. 535559) crashed while landing at the airfield also on December 28.

Re: Command Atlantic, December 1943.
 

As to 535559, pilot error on landing at Bordeaux. Fw 200 0189 engine fire and then on 29 Dec 0246 went missing

Re: Command Atlantic, December 1943.
 

Chris, thank you very much.

Re: Command Atlantic, December 1943.
 

While returning to base on 28 December after looking for targets, Lieutenant Commander Reedy encountered four He 177 aircraft. In the resultant melee, Reedy's crew managed to damage one of the enemy, sending it back towards France trailing smoke from a fire in its starboard engine. Postwar examination of German records indicated that He 177A3 Werk No. 5557 from 11/KG40, flown by Hauptman B. Eidhoff, was unable to return to base and crashed into the sea.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VPB-110
I also saw information that another Liberator from squadron VPB-110, which later crashed on its return, had a firefight with two German aircraft over the Bay of Biscay. Is this true?

Re: Command Atlantic, December 1943.
 

German records state one He 177 was shot down by Mosquitoes at 1803 hrs (157 Sqn-I have photos of the damage caused to one of the Mosquitoes) and a Liberator claimed to have damaged one at 1825hrs. Another record states 3 He 177s had a combat with a Liberator and twin-engined fighters and a Sunderland. Reedy's combat was at 1825hrs with 4 He 177s and he did not file a claim for anything according to Coastal Command. Only loss was Eidhoff's He 177. As to the PB4Y-1 lost, 63926/E VB-110 was lost when they crashed into a hill in bad weather near Okehampton killing Lt W W Parish and 9 crew. No mention of any German aircraft being involved just bad weather. If whoever wrote Wikipedia had consulted primary and secondary sources, they would have discovered the truth. Page 167 of my KG 40 proves this-the lead Mossie pilot saw the PB4Y-1 which proves what the German records state. Note the He 177 was an A-3, 535557 from II./KG 40 (5 Staffel)

Re: Command Atlantic, December 1943.
 

Thank you. I'm reading the original source right now
https://catalog.archives.gov/id/77673920?objectPage=18
and there really is nothing there about Lieutenant Parish's plane engaging the Germans.

Re: Command Atlantic, December 1943.
 

Between 10:00 and 12:00 on December 28, German aircraft attempted to ward off Allied aircraft shadowing German destroyers. As far as I understand, these were FW 200s. They were also shadowing British ships. How many were in the battle area at that time?

Re: Command Atlantic, December 1943.
 

One source: 2 Fw 200s up 0545hrs, landing 12 hours later; 11 Fw 200s up 0445-0500hrs, landing 12 hours. 1 x Ju 290 up 0640hrs.


Luftflotte 3: 8 Fw 200s up 0500-0749 hrs. One returns with engine problems. 1225 & 1235hrs Boeing spotted. Ships spotted 1235hrs
4 Fw 200s up 0636-0800hrs. Ships spotted 1305hrs as was a Catalina and Halifax


There were also Ju 88s around and reported nothing. VB-105 reported Fw 200s while VB-103 reported Ju 88s both later on. Curiously a 10 Sqn Sunderland spotted a He 111 around this time


As you can see I have quite a bit on this

Re: Command Atlantic, December 1943.
 

Chris: Excellent! Thank you.

Re: Command Atlantic, December 1943.
 

Of interest, Condors did very little apart from shadow and those identified as participating were F8+AT, F8+AK, F8+OK, F8+ET, F8+HR, F8+BT and F8+MK with the one reported overdue. Ju 290 shadowed from 1415hrs and landed 0034hrs

Re: Command Atlantic, December 1943.
 

Thanks, Chris. You have a lot of information, but it needs to be combined with what I have.
It is not entirely clear how many Condors took off on the morning of December 28. You write:
1. One source: 2 Fw 200s up 0545hrs, landing 12 hours later; 11 Fw 200s up 0445-0500hrs, landing 12 hours. = 13
2. Luftflotte 3: 8 Fw 200s up 0500-0749 hrs. One returns with engine problems.
4 Fw 200s up 0636-0800hrs. = 11
Which information is more accurate?
And one more thing. You wrote:
Of interest, Condors did very little apart from shadow
Here is information from the reports of the British cruisers against which all these aircraft operated.
28 Dec 1943
Action between HMS Glasgow and HMS Enterprise and German destroyers and torpedo boats.
Extract from the action report of HMS Glasgow.
At 1355A/28, the port 4" guns engaged a FW 200 aircraft and according to some reports this aircraft dropped a rocket bomb, clearly seen from the port director to fall into the sea between HMS Glasgow and HMS Enterprise.
Extract from the action report of HMS Enterprise.
At 1430A/28, HMS Enterprise was attacked by a glider bomb which exploded 400 yards on the port quarter. The aircraft which had released this bomb was identified as a FW 200 aircraft. AA fire from both cruisers disconcerted the plane but HMS Enterprise's close range AA fire directed at the bomb was not observed to hit.

https://uboat.net/allies/warships/ship/1229.html
If the Condors merely observed, then which aircraft attacked the cruisers twice with guided bombs? The He 177 attacks began much later.

Re: Command Atlantic, December 1943.
 

Bundesarchiv RL 2-II/4324 which Pawel mentioned and can be downloaded (thanks, Pawel!) holds the Germans’ own reports on each operation flown that day. I have no doubt that it is accurate but it is always possible that an item was missing.

The Air Operations Watch report that I referred to (which can’t be downloaded) includes everything the Allies learned from the day’s German radio traffic and deciphered signals, plus information from Allied aircraft and German prisoners. Again they might miss something.

Each source may include things that the other does not.

A good book on guided bomb operations is Martin J. Bollinger’s ‘Warriors and Wizards’.