Clostermann official score
 

Gents
Here is the official scoreboard for F/Lt P. N. CLOSTERMANN D.F.C & Bar by Fighter Command as found on the web. I have excluded ground target scores except aircraft.
Now, let's have some fun, and see how much the score reflects actual losses. I have had a very brief look only, might be a problem at times, due to lack of information. Othewise I need to find my Normandy database, so I cannot add anything at the moment.
Franek



341 Squadron
2 Focke Wulf 190 destroyed in the air. (27/7/43)
1 Focke Wulf 190 destroyed in the air (27/8/43)
1 Messerschmitt 109 damaged in the air (17/6/43)
1 Messerschmitt 109 damaged in the air (26/10/43)
602 Squadron
1 Messerschmitt 109 destroyed in the air (15/6/1944)
1 Focke Wulf 190 destroyed in the air (26/6/1944)
1 Focke Wulf 190 destroyed in the air (29/6/1944)
1 Messerschmitt 109 probable in the air (26/6/1944)
1 Focke Wulf 190 probable in the air (28/6/1944)
1 Messerschmitt 109 probable in the air (30/6/1944)
1 Focke Wulf 190 damaged in the air (7/1/1944)
2 Focke Wulf 190 destroyed in the air (2/7/1944)
2 Focke Wulf 190 damaged in the air (2/7/1944)
274 Squadron
1 Messerschmitt 109 destroyed in the air (5/3/1945)
1 Messerschmitt 109 destroyed in the air (14/3/1945)
1 Messerschmitt 109 probable in the air (14/3/1945)
1 Messerschmitt 109 probable in the air (14/3/45)
56 Squadron
1 Fieseler 156 destroyed in the air (28/3/45)
1 Focke Wulf 190 destroyed in the air (2/4/45)
1 Junkers 88 destroyed in the air (5/4/45)
2 Focke Wulf 190 damaged in the air (5/4/45)
2 Junkers 188 damaged on ground (2/4/45)
1 Junkers 188 probable on ground (5/4/45)
3 Junkers 88 damaged on ground (5/4/45)
3 Squadron
2 Focke-Wulf 190 destroyed in the air (20/4/1945)
1 Focke Wulf 190 destroyed in the air (3/5/1945)
2 Dornier 24 destroyed in the air (3/5/1945)
1 Junkera 252 destroyed on t.o. (3/5/1945)
1 Blom & Vhoss 138 destroyed on ground (3/5/1945)
1 Junkera 352 destroyed on ground (3/5/1945)
2 Dornier 18 destroyed on ground (4/5/1945)
2 Heinkel 177 probably dest. on ground (19/4/1945)
2 Heinkel 177 damaged on ground (19/4/1945)
2 Focke Wulf 190 damaged on ground (2/5/1945)
2 Arado 232 damaged on ground (3/5/1945)
2 Dorniers 18 damaged on ground (4/5/1945)
TOTAL SCORE for 341, 602, 274, 56 and 3 Squadrons
Aircrafts destroyed in the air: 19
Aircrafts destroyed on the ground: 4
Airorarts prob. destroyed on ground: 3
Aircrafts prob. destroyed in the air: 5
Aircrafts damaged in the air :8
Aircrafts damaged on the ground: 13
As member of a pair or a flight of four aircrafts, has participated to the destruction of 8 FW 190, 4 Me 109, Ju 290 and 1 He 111(in the air.) and of 1 Ara. 232, and 2 Do 18's (on the ground.)

Re: Clostermann official score
 

There was a very interesting examination of Clostermann's RAF career in the French magazine Avions No. 227 (Jan/Feb 2019) by Christophe Cony. He concluded that Clostermann had 14 kills, 4 probables and 8 damaged in the air; 9-5-9 on the ground; also one unconfirmed damaged in the air.


Also of interest was that Clostermann had been a journalist before the war, which probably explains how he was able to write such a vivid and exciting book.

Re: Clostermann official score
 

Nick
This is official RAF Fighter Command summary. Just what has been credited to Clostermann. The other question is, what actually fell down.
Franek

Re: Clostermann official score
 

The article does deal with that.

Re: Clostermann official score
 

Hi Franek,

"found on the web" might be doing a lot of heavy lifting here.

I haven't read the article Nick referenced, but I did go through the following sources from The National Archives some time ago with regard to Clostermann's 1945 claims:

AIR 37/829 - Weekly Reports of Enemy Aircraft Losses inflicted by 2nd TAF (these reports were updated and amended as new info came to hand)
AIR 50 - combat report series
AIR 27 - Squadron ORB series

The one source I haven't checked re: Clostermann is AIR 37/5 - 2nd TAF Log of Casualty Claims, Assessments and Losses. This file is likely as definitive as a single source can be.

Anyway, the following is what I noted (FALSE means the claim is not recorded in any of the three sources mentioned, but I haven't checked TNA AIR 37/5. CR means a Combat Report exists in TNA AIR 50. 2nd TAF EAL means TNA AIR 37/829):

5/3/45 274
1 x Bf109 DES (CR, listed in 2TAF EAL "In HENGELO area")

14/3/45 274
1 x Bf109 DES (FALSE) X-X-X-X-X
2 x Bf109 probable DES (FALSE) X-X-X-X-X

28/3/45 56
1 x Fi156 DES on the ground (CR, listed in 2TAF EAL "A.8989")

2/4/45 56
1 x Fw190 DES (CR, listed in 2TAF EAL "On VECHTA A/F")
2 x Ju88 DAM on the ground (CR, listed in 2TAF EAL "On VECHTA A/F")

5/4/45 56
2 x Fw190 DAM (CR, listed in 2TAF EAL "Patrols & Armed recces RHEINE-LINGEN-MEPPEN")
1 x Ju88 DES (FALSE) X-X-X-X-X

20/4/45 3
2 x Fw190 DEST (CR, listed in 2TAF EAL, these and other claims "NEURUPPIN area and A/F's at ORANIENBURG, HAGENAU, FLENSBURG, NORDHOLZ")

3/5/45 3
1 x Fw190 DES on the ground (FALSE) X-X-X-X-X (3 Sqn pilots Walker & West each claimed a Fw190 DES on the ground and these appear to be the only two such claims credited to 3 Sqn)
2 x Fw190 DAM on the ground (FALSE) X-X-X-X-X (2 such claims by 3 Sqn are acknowledged in a tabular summary for 3/5/45 in TNA AIR 37/829. I suspect these will be listed in TNA AIR 37/5, and might identify Clostermann)
2 x Do24 DES on the ground or water (CR) (1 DEST, 1 DAM listed in 2TAF EAL)
1 x Ju352 DES on the ground or water (CR) (1 DAM listed in 2TAF EAL)
2 x Bv138 DAM on the ground or water (CR)
2 x Ar232 DAM on the ground or water (CR)

4/5/45 3
2 x Do18 DES on the ground or water (CR)

As can be seen, this list differs from the one you presented. I am not saying mine is definitive, only that a clear set of agreed claims needs to be established first, especially if wanting to link claims to Luftwaffe losses. I expect TNA file AIR 37/5 should provide clear answers. Christophe Cony might have consulted this source, I don't really know.


I have one page from TNA AIR 37/5 that happens to have a Clostermann claim listed. It serves to illustrate the importance of this primary source document:

DATE: 28 Mar.
SERIAL: 362/III
GRP: 83
SQN: 56
PILOT CLAIMING: F/L Clostermann
E/A CASUALTIES: TYPE OF A/C: Fi.156
E/A CASUALTIES: CLAIMS: 1 Des
FINAL ASSESSMENT: 1 Fi.156 DES
OWN CASUALTIES: A/C: 2 Tempests Cat E
OWN CASUALTIES: PILOTS: Sgt Sheppard missing
REMARKS: A/R's RHEINE-MUNSTER-HANNOVER. E/A destroyed on the ground A.8989. 1 a/c, 3 Sqn, hit by flak pilot safe.

Cheers

Rod

Re: Clostermann official score
 

Cony's article doesn't give references but does thank Chris Thomas, Matti Salonen and Jean-Claude Mermet. I'd feel confident that if anyone has read all relevant the 2TAF files, it's Chris Thomas. Cony also thanks someone for transcribing all of Clostermann's second logbook (apparently photography is forbidden by the family).


From Franek's original post, I wasn't aware that Fighter Command, unlike the Luftwaffe, ever maintained official tallies of pilot's scores (not to mention that Clostermann made the bulk of his claims with 2TAF).

Re: Clostermann official score
 

The AHB has a cardex system listing all pilots by name and their claims so someone in the war did keep a tally

Re: Clostermann official score
 

Rod
The document is on display in the French museum, someone took a photo and posted it on the FB. I have just did a copy and transcribed it. It does look authentic to me.
Thanks for your comments, and yes, it poses a few querries in regard of some claims. I would not bother if this was some later compilation, but as noted it looks proper 1945 document.
I have send the document to Chris Thomas, and let him know of the thread, so I am awaiting his comments. As far he noted that he have heard of the document, but never seen it before.


Nick
There was a victories verification & recording system for the RAF. I have seen numerous random documents proving there was such a system, including a one stating that for some reason in 1942 all scores were revised. I have not seen any documents originating from the office, though, or descrbing the organisation. I have not seen cardex records, but I assume they were in Hollerith system allowing to produce statistical data automatically. There is still a lot to be written about Admin & SD!


Franek

Re: Clostermann official score
 

Hi Franek,

I just checked another 2nd TAF document I have - TNA AIR 37/692: 2ND TACTICAL AIR FORCE: Task statistics: daily operations etc.

This is a chronological summary of every 2nd RAF mission, listing: Date / the mission serial / Type and number of aircraft involved / Sqn/Wing / Time up / Time down / Claims on the ground / Enemy aircraft Des, P.D. Dam / Own losses / Remarks.

I just checked all the Tempest missions flown on:

14 March 1945:

4 x Tempests, 3 Sqn /122 Wg, 10.49-12.02h.

24 x Tempests 3, 56, 486 Sqns/122 Wg, 09.10-14.54h.

20x Tempests 33,222 Sqns/35 Wg, 11.36-13.18h.

56 x Tempests 3, 56, 80, 274, 486 Sqns/122 Wg, 13.25-18.18h.

All these missions produced no claims on the ground and no claims against enemy aircraft.

This is the date Clostermann reputedly claimed three Bf109s.

5 April 1945:

8 x Tempests 274 Sqn / 135 Wg, 06.44-09.15h.
9 x Locos, 15 x MET damaged on ground.

16 x Tempests 222, 33 Sqns/135 Wg, 07.42-11.15h
6 x MET destroyed, 25 x MET, 2 x locos, 2 x Trg damaged on the ground by 222 Sqn. 2 x MET, 1 x loco damaged on the ground by 33 Sqn.

8 x Tempests 56 Sqn/122 Wg, 07.10-10.30h
6(?) x MET destroyed, 19 x MET damaged, 14 x TRG damaged on the ground.

16 x Tempests 80, 486 Sqns.122 Wg, 07.48-10.30h
25 x MET, 1 x loco, 6 x Trg damaged on the ground by 80 Sqn. 9 x MET destroyed, 13 x MET damaged on the ground by 486 Sqn

2 x Tempests 274 Sqn/131 Wg, 17.48-18.44h (weather recce)

4 x Tempests 56 Sqn/122 Wg, 11.15-13.18h
2 x Fw190s damaged by F/Lt. Clostermann

14 x Tempests 80, 486 Sqns/122 Wg, 12.15-18.30h
2 x MET destroyed, 1 x MET damaged by 80 Sqn. 1 80 Sqn aircraft Cat E due to flak, pilot safe

This is the date Clostermann reputedly claimed a Ju88 destroyed in the air.

28 March 1945:

8 x Tempests 56 Sqn/122 Wg (blanket time of 12.58-14.40h includes Spitfires, Tempests, and Typhoons)
2 x Trg destroyed, 12 x MET damaged on the ground. 1 x E/A destroyed.
Remarks: MUNSTER - HERFORD - DIEPHOLZ. 1 Fi.156 destroyed on the ground A.8989. 3 guns towed N.E. A.7564. Ambulance seen towing guns N.E. FULMEN - MUNSTER road.

So, this is a second primary source that confirms Clostermann's Fi.156 claim on 28 March 1945 was on the ground and not in the air.

3 May 1945:

Boy, this one is complicated... : ) I will only list the Clostermann claims. TNA AIR 37/5 would provide final claim confirmation status.

32 x Tempests 122 Wg, 05.50-10.14h
3 Sqn: Well camouflaged landing strip O.1337 with 8 black camouflaged Fw.190 loading yellow bombs, strafed and F/L CLOSTERMAN claims 1 destroyed and 2 damaged [on the ground]. 1 destroyed by F/L HUGHES and 1 destroyed by W/O SAUNDERS and F/L LONGLEY [on the ground]

4 x Tempests 3 Sqn/122 Wg (blanket time of 15.21-21.15h includes multiple sorties by different aircraft and squadrons)
KIEL/ 1 Do.24 dam, 1 Do.24 dest, 2 BV.138 dam, 2 Ar.232 dam, 1 Ju.352 damaged (ground or sea) by F/L CLOSTERMAN. 1 Ju.52 dest (ground) by F/L LONGLEY. Land and seaplane base GROSSENBRODE attacked.

4 May 1945:

9 x Tempests 3, 486 Sqns/122 Wg 14.10-16.30h
FEHMARN - FAABORG - SYLT. 1 Me.110 dest, 2 Do.24 dam, 2 He.115 dam, F/L LONGLEY. 1 BV.138 des W/O MALIN. 2 Do.18 dest F/L CLOSTERMAN - all on ground or sea. A/C at SCHLESWIG C.3164 on ground.

4 x Tempests, 3 Sqn/122 Wg, 14.10-16.30h
Area as above. 2 Ju.352 dest, 2 Do.24 dest F/O WEST. 1 Ju.352 dest, 1 Do.24 dest, 1 Ju.353 [sic] dam, 1 Do.24 dam F/L WALKER - all on ground. Ju.352's and Ar.232's seen O.1775. Do.24's at SCHLESWIG seaplane base C.3164.

Franek, to compare 3 and 4 May to your list:

1 Focke Wulf 190 destroyed in the air (3/5/1945): 1 FW.190 DEST on the ground, landing strip at O.1337
2 Focke Wulf 190 damaged on ground (2/5/1945): 3/5/1945, 2 FW.190 DAM on the ground, landing strip at O.1337 [no claims made on 2/5/45]
NOTE - TNA AIR 37/829 (as per my earlier post) only had 2 x Fw.190 DEST & 2 Fw.190 DAM on the ground by 3 Sqn. AIR 37/692 shows 3 Sqn claimed 5 Fw.190 DEST & 2 FW.190 DAM on the ground throughout the day


2 Dornier 24 destroyed in the air (3/5/1945): 1 Do.24 DEST & 1 Do.24 DAM in the ground, land and seaplane base GROSSENBRODE
2 Arado 232 damaged on ground (3/5/1945): 2 Ar.232 DAM on the ground, land and seaplane base GROSSENBRODE
1 Junkera 252 destroyed on t.o. (3/5/1945): NOT LISTED
1 Blom & Vhoss 138 destroyed on ground (3/5/1945): 1 BV.138 DAM on the ground, land and seaplane base GROSSENBRODE
1 Junkera 352 destroyed on ground (3/5/1945): 1 Ju.352 DAM on the ground, land and seaplane base GROSSENBRODE


2 Dornier 18 destroyed on ground (4/5/1945): 2 Do.18 DEST on the ground at SCHLESWIG C.3164
2 Dorniers 18 damaged on ground (4/5/1945): Duplicate of above claims

AIR 37/5 would confirm the final adjudicated status of these May 1945 claims.


I had heard about Clostermann having a genuine document listing his claims, reputedly signed by AVM Harry Broadhurst. Nevertheless, the document still needs to be validated and not contradicted by other contemporary records.

Cheers

Rod

Re: Clostermann official score
 

A quick history of Clostermann's score evolution:

After the War the French Air Force quoted his score as 33 (+5 probables as the 19+14 shared from the Broadhurst November 1945 document) see for example "Les As de la Guerre 1939-1945" by the Service Historique de l'Armée de l'Air (Daniel PORRET & Franck THEVENET - 1993) while the number 23 was also circulating (23 black cross and 9 white cross are painted on his Tempest post-War and his DFC citations mention respectively 11 and 12 victories).
This was first challenged by "Aces High" (Chris SHORES & Clive WILLIAMS - 1994) which quoted discrepancies between the Broadhurst November 1945 document and the ORBs. It stated the confirmed victories at "11 (plus possibly 7 additional) but this remained mostly unoticed at the time.
When these conclusions were printed in France in "Les pilotes de chasse français 39-45" (Philippe LISTEMANN, Pierre-André TILLEY & Christian-Jacques Ehrengardt -1999) with a list of 12 confirmed victories, Pierre Clostermann accused Aéro Editions of defamation and won (the book was removed from sales and Aéro Editions ended up bankrupting).
The score was re-evaluated again in Avions n°227 (2019) in an article by Christophe CONY with the help of the logbooks and mention confirmation of 14 victories in RAF documents.
Another good study is "Pierre Clostermann : Journal de sa vie opérationnelle Janvier 1943 - Août 1945" (Georges-Eric COISNE - 2020).

Re: Clostermann official score
 

I always wondered why he had that letter from Broadhurst. I don't remember reading that any other 2TAF pilot had (or requested) one, or did every successful pilot receive such a letter from the Air Marshal?

Re: Clostermann official score
 

Hi,

I checked the TNA 24/653 Statistics of Combats and Casualties in ADGB., Fighter Command and 2 TAF; Vol 4. For 2nd TAF the pages have the title “2nd T.A.F. Log of casualty and claims, assessments and losses”. I expect that it should contain the same information as TNA AIR 37/5. For most of the dates it has the same info as “2TAF EAL” but for the 3rd of May there are a few differences:

3/5/45 3
1 x Fw190 DES on the ground (FALSE) X-X-X-X-X (3 Sqn pilots Walker & West each claimed a Fw190 DES on the ground and these appear to be the only two such claims credited to 3 Sqn) – TNA AIR 24/653: Final assessment 1 DES + notes made with pencil “GR” for all claims on this date
2 x Fw190 DAM on the ground (FALSE) X-X-X-X-X (2 such claims by 3 Sqn are acknowledged in a tabular summary for 3/5/45 in TNA AIR 37/829. I suspect these will be listed in TNA AIR 37/5, and might identify Clostermann) - TNA 24/653: Final assessment 2 Dam

2 x Do24 DES on the ground or water (CR) (1 DEST, 1 DAM listed in 2TAF EAL) – TNA AIR 24/653: Final assessment 2 DES
1 x Ju352 DES on the ground or water (CR) (1 DAM listed in 2TAF EAL) – TNA AIR 24/653: Final assessment 1 DES
2 x Bv138 DAM on the ground or water (CR) – TNA AIR 24/653: Final assessment 2 Dam
2 x Ar232 DAM on the ground or water (CR) – TNA AIR 24/653: Final assessment 2 Dam


Cheers,
Peter

Re: Clostermann official score
 

Nick
As far we do not know, if there were any more such documents, so we cannot say if they were unique or not.
As far as I can tell, I have seen odd surviving documents like FC confirmation of 7 Dec 1944 victory dated 29 Jan 1945 (I think) for F/S Bargiełowski. Certainly there were such papers issued for each victory but I have seen only this one surviving. So, I have seen a FC document pertaining 9 Apr 1945 victory of S/L Żulikowski, asking to withdraw claim for probable and to ammend it as destroyed, because examination of gun camera film showed German pilot bailing out - with both versions of PCR included.
Another interesting set is concerning 8 Nov 1940 501 Sqn victory, it contains a ROC report on German crashes which resulted in filing the claim and crediting it to the Squadron, and 1942 amendment, attributing it to individual pilots.
I do not need to mention that some documents pertaining to blue on blue were also removed from files and just few survived.
Again, those are odd documents that survived, and there are some more, but bulk of them seemingly was lost.


Rod
I agree that this is quite confusing but we would have to assume that either Broadhurst provided false information for some reason or that Clostermann faked the document. I do not see a reason for that, hence the enigma.


Franek

Re: Clostermann official score
 

Hi Peter, thanks for this. Yes, it sounds like TNA AIR 24/653 contains the same info as TNA AIR 37/5.

My original post relied on the one tabular file (TNA 37/829) I originally made notes from, and it has errors. TNA AIR 37/692 is more complete and more verbose.

In looking at what you've posted, Clostermann had three damaged claims on 3 May 1945 upgraded to destroyed.

TNA AIR 37/692 (claimed):
1 x FW.190 DEST, 2 x FW.190 DAM on the ground.

TNA AIR 24/653 (assessed as):
1 x FW.190 DEST, 2 x FW.190 DAM on the ground.


TNA AIR 37/692 (claimed):
1 Do.24 DEST, 1 Do.24 DAM, 2 BV.138 DAM, 2 Ar.232 DAM, 1 Ju.352 DAM on the ground.

TNA AIR 24/653 (assessed as):
2 Do.24 DEST, 2 BV.138 DAM, 2 Ar.232 DAM, 1 Ju.352 DEST on the ground.

Re: Clostermann official score
 

Hi Franek,

I haven't seen the document, so I cannot comment. I don't know if it was a document that Clostermann requested and Broadhurst provided, or a document that Clostermann prepared and got Broadhurst to sign.

I guess in terms of your original request, it's impossible to assess possible Luftwaffe adversaries/victims if a listed claim is bogus and never happened.

At this stage, I know this seemingly applies to the Bf109s claimed on 14 March 1945 and the Ju88 claimed on 5 April 1945. And, of course, air claims need sorted from ground claims.

Cheers

Rod

Re: Clostermann official score
 

Hi Rod,

I forgot to mention that the original claims were also included in AIR 24/653 and these were identical to AIR 37/692. It is therefore clear that the claims were upgraded based additional information.

Re: Clostermann official score
 

If he either requested or prepared that letter, was he perhaps looking to address or pre-empt questioning of his record?

As for claims, his book's (vividly depicted) episode where on patrol over Remagen he pursues an Me 262 seems to correspond to nothing in the records of 122 Wing, his Squadron or Luftwaffenkommado West.

Re: Clostermann official score
 

Hi Peter,

I know AIR 37/5 has the claim assessment results implicitly given, and I expect these assessments were done using analysis of the gun camera film (and possibly also results of photographic aerial reconnaissance).

Re: Clostermann official score
 

..Clostermann's 'document' perhaps?

" My two DFC citations, by Air Marshal Slessor and AOC 83 Group Sir Harry Broadhurst, are enough for me"

- "DFC 26/8/44 This officer has displayed outstanding courage and devotion to duty throughout his operational career in the course of which he has destroyed at least 11 enemy aircraft and damaged other military objectives". "Bar 28/5/45 since being awarded the DFC this officer has participated in 70 new operational missions during which he has destroyed a further 12 enemy aircraft. Throughout, Lieutenant Clostermann has displayed outstanding courage and ability, and has proved to be a source of inspiration to all".

" 23 black crosses ..[on my Tempest..] and 23 confirmed by my DFC citations. I never personally asked for anything else.... "

Re: Clostermann official score
 

"PREFACE
So every evening I used to write down for [my parents] the events of the day in a fat Air Ministry notebook stamped 'G.R.' … these notes—by the end of the war they filled three books—were always with me … I simply jotted down day by day the impressions, the fleetingly-caught incidents so sharply imprinted on my memory … It is precisely becasue they are true, because they were written in the first flush of action that I have made no attempt to re-touch these notes."

That true is italicised in the original, so I'd like to see what his notebooks said about the episode in The Big Show crept in where 2 TAF Tempests are called on to patrol over Remagen and Clostermann finds himself "face to face with an absolute armada of seven or eight Arado 234's escorted by thirty or so Me 262's diving down on that miserable bridge." He is then thrown into a spin when he passes too close to the explosion of an Arado's bomb and, after recovering pursues and damages an Me 262.

An exciting read but a set of events I have not been able to corroborate from the ORBS of 122 Wing or its Squadrons, let alone the Luftwaffenkommando West situation reports.

Re: Clostermann official score
 

I would suggest to not to discuss the book, but documents. In the Broadhurst document there is no mention of Me 262.
I do not quite get it, how would Broadhurst have to sign a document not containing the truth to his best knowledge. So, unless it is all fake, and as yet there is no evidence, it is, there is a question of discrepancies between the document and other records.