Claim for Joseph Goetz 122269 Pilot KIA P-51 43-12469
 

Gotz was KIA 21-03-1944 1.2 km southwest of Bourmegeau (21 km SE of La Roche-sur-Yon,
Now in KUJ-761 is stated by Jager. But the eyewitness Pierce Winningham McKennon make in his report IN MACR 3383 pg 3 no mention of this. Reading it i think it is possible. High dive on tail end Charly.
From MACR:
"On March 21, 1944; Rodeo to Libourne, when F/O Joseph Geets was lost, I was flying as "Greenbelt, Green Three". I had just joined up with two other boys from another section, having lost mine due to enemy action. We were flying on the deck, after having shot up an enemy airdrome, when I noticed the aircraft on my left pull up slightly and appear to stop in mid-air. This airplane was "WD-1", which was being flown by F/O Geets. I heard him say something but could not understand what it was. I then called to the other man that was with me to turn around and go back. It was just as we were turning that I saw F/O Geets's aircraft hit the ground. It did not burn but was very badly torn up. Both wings were severed from the airplane, the fuselage was lying on its back, and the engine was out. It is my belief that no one could have lived after crashing in this manner."


Is there a claim to be tied in for this one?
Tia.

Re: Claim for Joseph Goetz 122269 Pilot KIA P-51 43-12469
 

Crash was near Bournezau and I can see no claims

Re: Claim for Joseph Goetz 122269 Pilot KIA P-51 43-12469
 

Looks like most if not all 7 losses (1 evaded) were Flak while strafing. From Grover Hall's "1000 destroyed"..........


"How was it, Jim?" Blakeslee asked.
"Okay, I guess, Don," Clark answered. "Got seven N.Y.R. though".
"Seven?" asked Blakeslee.
"Yeah, the light stuff was plenty wicked".


N.Y.R. = Not yet returned.
Nick


https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/...5/joseph-goetz

Re: Claim for Joseph Goetz 122269 Pilot KIA P-51 43-12469
 

Thanks Cris, for location see links. Is there another source for Bournezau?



https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Z2U...usp=drive_link


and


https://drive.google.com/file/d/10jj...usp=drive_link

Re: Claim for Joseph Goetz 122269 Pilot KIA P-51 43-12469
 

Most if not all are are in the KUJ i think.


https://drive.google.com/file/d/10jj...usp=drive_link


https://drive.google.com/file/d/10jj...usp=drive_link

Re: Claim for Joseph Goetz 122269 Pilot KIA P-51 43-12469
 

Not sure by what you mean. There is no town in that area with the name Bourmegeau from what I can see

Re: Claim for Joseph Goetz 122269 Pilot KIA P-51 43-12469
 

Looking in Fred Trendle's Point Blank Band 3/44 (no I have not checked Prien et al) he says
there were no claims by Luftwaffe on the western front.
Their only claims were over Italy

All seven losses from the 4FG were to Flak. Joseph Goetz in particular is listed as
"shot down by Flak in the area "La Brejonniere", 1.2km SW Bournezeau" which fits what Chris
said.

The fighter opposition facing the 4FG that day seems only to have been the Erg Grp West, loosing
five Fw 190.

B Rgds
Stig

Re: Claim for Joseph Goetz 122269 Pilot KIA P-51 43-12469
 

Well the kuj states jager. Including a crash site,why would they do that? Source beyond a macr would be nice. I do think flak is the prop. cause but I have read hundreds of ku, kuj j and their macr to know faults were made. And copied.
So other sources would be great.

Thanks for the replies

Re: Claim for Joseph Goetz 122269 Pilot KIA P-51 43-12469
 

Don't want to go back to the MACRs but the only one which mentions fighters is 3438 (1/Lt. W. C. Hawkins 335th); James Dye also 335th. was with him, wounded but returned to make his report.
"We were jumped by 8 Jerries about 25-30 miles Northwest of Bordeaux at 1445 hours."
Does this match the crash site though?

https://www.4thfightergroupassociati...inswcweb_a.pdf


Nick

Re: Claim for Joseph Goetz 122269 Pilot KIA P-51 43-12469
 

I also now checked Prien et al and there are no German claims that day.

The only unit reporting contact was the Erg Grp West

Either the US report is wrong or pilots from the Erg Grp were either shot down or failed to
see their victim(s) crash. If that was so, no other pilots from the unit saw anything as well.

B Rgds
Stig

Re: Claim for Joseph Goetz 122269 Pilot KIA P-51 43-12469
 

Grover Hall was the 4FG Public Relations Officer and questioned pilots after missions; Dye said they were 190s and he was wounded in the leg, lost a lot of blood and did well to return to DB. But he didn't see what happened to Hawkins, they were low down so could be ground fire.


Regards
Nick


Just checked The American Archive at the IWM, states Hawkins' Mustang damaged in dog-fight near Bordeaux, low fuel and bailed near Brest. Helped by the De La Marniere family, returned to UK by British gunboat MGB503. The IWM record says crashed "0.3 km. NE Bourg-Blanc, 10km. N. of Brest". Hawkins mentions "crashed Lambezellec 15km. N. Brest."