An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?
 

Forgive my ignorance, but has a recent book been published that incorporates the years of work that the historians herein (the ones on this forum) have dedicated to clarifying the actual (cross-checked) claims of the Luftwaffe Experten?

Hartmann: 352, Barkhorn: 301, etc. etc. Enough is enough.

When is the REAL record going to be published? That is, when is the truth going to be published?

It's been 81-years already.

Isn't it time for the world to know who was really No. 1, 2, 3, etc.? As in: Rall, Lipfert, Bär? (Or who ever...)

Why is this secret being kept? Will those who are not members of this forum ever be told the truth?

Bronc

Re: An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?
 

It's a HUGE subject and not all the records are available--BUT they are coming, in pieces here and there. The Horvaths talked about II/JG 52's experten in Hungary and of course, the works of Christopher Shores may cover the exploits of other aces in other fronts during other periods in history. I guess it will take time to tie it all together...I think there is a book series of "ALL" German aces (5 vics or more) that has been put together but I am not sure how far their vic claims are broken down.
A lot of stuff has been declassified, so it's only a matter of time.


NM

Re: An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?
 

There is my Luftwaffe aces of 1940 book................

Re: An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?
 

When wondering why no one has written a book about [insert subject here], I've found it useful to consider why I wouldn't write it. If you ask yourself that question and come up with answers like not enough time/knowledge/money/sources/contacts, the chances are that other people have thought the same thing. (Obviously none of that stopped Dan and Gabor Horvath, though!)

Speaking purely for myself, I'm not much interested in aces, scores and league tables except to establish accurately what happened in a combat or campaign. The late Stephen Bungay argued in his Battle of Britain and Alamein books that the Luftwaffe's infatuation with score-chasing lone heroes did not win campaigns (or, ultimately, the war) and we shouldn't forget that.

Re: An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?
 

'The truth? You can't handle the truth!' Oh boy, what a potential rabbit-hole conversation could be started here.

Re: An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?
 

Do take a deep breath. First, everything is not online. As far as books, it's a bits and pieces affair. A number of records concerning the U.S. military are still classified since the war. Today, NARA in the United States releases new batches of formerly classified records every quarter. The problem for researchers is that subject headings are overly broad, or vague.

Speaking about the Luftwaffe, time and dedication are the primary factors. Would it be nice if someone dug through those records? Spent 5, 10 or more years to get that book about some particular subject done? Thank God for those here who have taken on that task.

Re: An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?
 

When is the REAL record going to be published? That is, when is the truth going to be published?


You have an interest in the subject and probably a task ahead of you. I wish you good luck with the work and will probably by you book when it is finished (if I live at that time)


Carsten

Re: An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?
 

Page 1 from an article by Dan Horvath in the upcoming AXIS WINGS VOLUME 5..

https://i.ibb.co/VpjZfJ7B/Screenshot...t-18-35-16.png

Re: An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?
 

Indeed, I have pointed out on some vlogs and blogs that, 'regardless of how good a shot Marseilles was or how many P40s he shot down 'in one day', neither he nor his comrades could prevent the Desert Airforce from bombing the Afrika Korp and it's supply lines into scrap.

Re: An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?
 

I'm not sure that the Luftwaffe was so concentrated on the high score of his fighter pilots, my opinion is that book writers and readers are.

The Luftwaffe flew far more ground attack missions than fighters ones. The activities by fighter bombers units (SG) has few covering, except for Chris Goss books, compared to the fighters ones. But even the fighters units were often ordered to attack ground targets rather than chasing enemy planes.

As for establishing the real score of German aces, some published works exist, but the task is just huge, no need of conspiracy to explain why it has not been done.

Re: An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?
 

One deciphered signal from North Africa:

CX/MSS/1378
2. On morning 6/9, JG 27 sent the following report to AOC-in-C South, ((I))A:

Daily report on a/c shot down by fighter formations:
5/9/42:
(1) (Roman) I./27: 590 + 6. II./27: 473 + 3
(2) I./27: Obltn. Marseille, 131–134; Ltn. Stahlschmidt, 55–56
II./27: Hptm. Roedel, 53–55; Uffz. Schneider, 6

Re: An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?
 

No one has suggested a conspiracy. The growing problem I see, not just about this but other subjects as well, is emotional demands. Common phrases include "it's been so long" or "we should know the truth." But the war generated millions of pages of documents from all sides. Russian files were inaccessible until relatively recently.

Here is an example about the Soviet Navy:

(From Amazon.)

"Seventy-five years after the end of the World War II the details of Soviet ships, their activities and fates remain an enigma to the West. In wartime such information was classified and after a brief period of glasnost (‘openness‘) the Russian state has again restricted access to historical archives. Therefore, the value – and originality – of this book is difficult to exaggerate. It sees the first publication of reliable data on both the seagoing fleets and riverine flotillas of the Soviet Navy, listing over 6,200 vessels from battleships to river gunboats, and mercantile conversions as well as purpose-built warships. Divided into three volumes, this first covers major surface warships down to MTBs and armored gunboats, as well as submarines. For every class there is a design history analyzing strategic, tactical, and technical considerations, and individual ship detail includes construction yard, key building dates, commissioning, fleet designations, relocations, and fate. Once a closely guarded secret, the wartime loss of every ship and boat (over one thousand) is described. Furthermore, the confusion caused by frequent name changes is clarified by an index that runs to sixteen thousand items. By following the ships through both their wartime and earlier history, the book reveals many aspects of Russian history that remain highly -sensitive: clandestine co-operation with Weimar Germany and fascist Italy, the NKVD-enforced closure of Soviet borders, the ‘Gulag Fleet‘, the faked Metallist sinking that excused the military occupation of Estonia, and the ill-conceived pact with Nazi Germany. Restrictions recently imposed on historical publications in Russia mean this book could certainly not have been published there – as proven by the fact that most of the authors' Russian collaborators preferred not to disclose their identities. This is undoubtedly one of the most important naval reference works of recent years and will be welcomed by anyone with an interest in warships, the Soviet Navy, or maritime aspects of World War II."

Re: An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?
 

We are being lied to massively, and in plain language, about all aspects of the current conflicts underway by the elites. So I'm not sure about the gist of this conversation.

Re: An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?
 

The gist of this conversation is whether there has been an accurate appraisal of one particular aspect of a conflict that ended in 1945. Conflicts are routinely lied about while they are underway, with luck historians eventually have the opportunity to offer something better.

Re: An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?
 

True, but IF the readings of the sources are correct, many of those ground attack missions were disrupted and aborted by Allied fighters, and prevented from causing TOO much damage to allied interests, while the same can't be said about the Axis fighter force.

Re: An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?
 

Without facts and sources, your comments do not add to the historical record.

Re: An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?
 

Sorry; I can only go by Crisp's "Brazen Chariots" where he reports multiple times Axis bombers had to dump their bombs (on their own troops, he said with notable delight) and make a run for it and the Shores books have a lot of Stuka missions where they have to dump their payloads to evade DAF fighters. Other than those, no other ones come to mind.

Re: An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?
 

I'll only add that B-17 bombers sometimes had to abort their missions. Dumping their bombs where they could to save weight due to flak and/or fighter damage. That way they could maintain altitude and limp back to their bases.

Re: An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?
 

Sure, but more often than not, 'The Bombers always got thru' on the Allied side in the Western Desert AND over the supply convoys transporting fuel anod supplies to the Afrika Korp.

Of course, we have been 'thread jacked' off topic with the original 'final and real' count for the Luftwaffe's ace pilots

Re: An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?
 

Can you please post a legibly sized screenshot? It's really small and impossible to read

Cheers

Re: An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?
 

I think he'd rather you placed an order!

Re: An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?
 

Hi all, this is Daniel using Gabor's account.


We must understand that a claim does not necessarily mean a loss on the opponents side; a victory. Given this, a pilot's total claim count which may be very high, proven by wartime documents, is still historically correct. These claims do not, however, translate into victories, and effectively leave us with two lists for the pilot: a claims list and a victories list.


To the first post's question, this is a time intensive research exercise. Existing books which have compiled claims include the Luftwaffe Aces' series (vols. 1-4) by Mathews and Foreman. I would recommend these books as they are excellent. Yes, since their publication new information has come to light, but this is not a fault of those authors. As for victory verification, I could recommend Theo Boiten's NJ series and of course our own, limited-in-scope, Verified Victories. They may be others out there too such as Drei "Falken" der II./JG52 auf der Krim im Luftkampf um die Kertsch-Halbinsel (1943-1944).

Also true is my upcoming article in the Axis Wings vol.5. Should you be interested in the general topic I would humbly recommend this as well.

All the best,
Daniel using Gabor's account.

Re: An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?
 

There is some perpetuating misunderstanding. Pilots (or aircrew) submitted claims, that following some sort of verification were rejected or confirmed, and they formed approved victories. Cross check against actual losses is completely different thing, and often with a big marigin of error. This has never been done officially, and never would be for WWII due to insufficient evidence. While cross checking one should take into account claims, victories but also those never submitted claims, if there is evidence. It is not unusual to find out that never submitted or rejected claims turned real, while credited victories unsubstantiated.

Re: An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?
 

Yes

Re: An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?
 

Cheers, Steve

I totally intend to

Re: An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?
 

just click on it - just giving a heads-up that there's an article forthcoming

Re: An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?
 

I noticed that phenomenon in The Horvaths' book in II/JG52 over Hungary, especially with Helmut Lipfert: he actually shot down several aircraft (in some cases, they were Romanian flown BF109s) but he didn't bother to claim them for try to follow them down. I was impressed that Lipfert's claim accuracy was close to the mid 90% rate (over Hungary, at least), and of course his War Memoirs are a great read as well.

Re: An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?
 

Hello Nick,

Yes, Lipfert’s figures for the Caucasus and Crimea also show a high % of credible claims. These aren’t always downed aircraft; sometimes they’re damaged, but nonetheless.

Best regards,
Andrey

Re: An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?
 

Let's forget my books on Erprobungsgruppe 210, and SKG 210/ZG 1, then...

Re: An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?
 

We have all seen the Erich Hartmann worship.

https://x.com/hw97karbine/status/209...357376601?s=20

https://x.com/Das_Pazer/status/2098482158210048069?s=20

And I do mean, worship.

Yet everyone, literally everyone, who reads and studies this forum knows, beyond a preponderance of the evidence, and indeed, beyond clear and convincing evidence, and in plain fact, beyond any reasonable doubt that Erich Hartmann does not deserve this worship.

My point is simple: if people around the world want to worship the top scoring fighter pilot of WWII (and of all time) shouldn't they, at the very least, be worshipping the right man?

Bronc

Re: An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?
 

You're right, I forgot those (while I have the first at home) but I was only sinking of SG/SKG units, not Bf 110 ones.

I will also second Daniel's comment above. While this thread started on the issue to link claims with victories, another issue is that claims may have been validated by the corresponding authority or not. For example, from memory the last Luftwaffe claim validated are from September 1944 and any claim after that is just a pilot's claim that could have been rejected by the process, so it is probable that accuracy of the claim (compared to real enemy losses) will be lower than in previous periods.

Re: An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?
 

I'm trying to get you LW aces from 1940 book off Amazon but it keeps transferring me to your fighters and bombers tome.

Re: An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?
 

What I see most of the time on online discussion forums is extremes. Comments in poor taste. Extravagant claims about a number of things. Ridiculous comments. And the common thing among them is a lack of evidence. Something people can check.

It's a bit like a few men at various pubs making unsupported comments finding their counterparts online. They form an informal club if you will. As word spreads, others join too. And they somehow think that what they are saying is the same as people who have done the work and provided the references. There should be a sharp dividing line between experts and those who don't know what they are talking about. And that is the primary thing lacking online. It does not appear that anyone is making an effort to address this.

Re: An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?
 

Another simple point: if Hartmann’s verifiable score turns out to be 70 (or whatever the figure is) he would still be a VERY successful fighter pilot.

Re: An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?
 

But he will never be as good as Helmut Lipfert, who had a verification rate of 90% (e.g. Verified Victories Top JG 52 Aces over Hungary 1944-45)

Re: An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?
 

Even though Lipfert made jokes about being 'old' for a fighter pilot, it appeared his maturity and caution made his claims stand up to close scrutiny--at least over Hungary. Maybe earlier in his career he was more 'optimistic' in his claims, but who knows for sure.

Re: An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?
 

NickM,

A good source to check an earlier stage of his career, along with that of Barkhorn and Foennekold:

https://www.amazon.de/Drei-Falken-Lu.../dp/3869332484


The Black Cross Red Star series also provides much insight into claims versus losses in the East

Re: An Historically Accurate Luftwaffe Aces Book?
 

Looks 'muy interesante' but I will have to wait for an English language version; and it's set in Kerch/Crimea--what seemed to be the toughest, most intense part of Lipfert's career. Also, looks like there are more and more releases coming for the Kuban Bridgehead too; Tons of new material to read.

Thanks again,

NM