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Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
.... and could they have had any effect on the Allied advance in France and to the Belgium-Dutch border?
data from Classic's 262, pg 442, Appendix 7 with SC500 bomb normal range: @ SL - 270km/168mi @ 6km - 475km/295mi max range: @ SL - 330km/205mi @ 6km - 550km/342mi (radius of action is always less than half the range) endurance @ 100% thrust: @ SL - 0.36hr @ 6km - 0.71hr max endurance: @ SL - 0.75hr @ 6km - 1.21hr max speed: @ SL - 718kph/446mph @ 6km - 750kph/466mph To consider, F. Wendel states in a report, "the range was insufficent to undertake bomber missions since the airfields had to be located more than 100km(60mi) from the front due to strong enemy fighter activity". (no date given but most probably July-Aug 1944) Again by Wendel, "In level flight, the Revi is useless for accurate bombing. Pinpoint targets could not be hit. Kdo Schenk was therefore unable to claim any tactical successes". Hitler had also ordered that the 262 should not operate under 4000m. At this time, the Jumo 004B was rarely capable of running for more than 10hrs without a major overhaul. There had only been 124 262s built to the end of Aug but many of these had been destroyed in Allied bombings and accidents. At the end of Aug, Kdo Schenk had retreated to Volkel and then to Rheine on Sept. 5. This put it out of range of the Allied supply lines and just within reach of the Allied front lines. |
Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
A fairly simple sight suffices for shallow dive attacks, using bombs or air-to-ground rockets. It would have been useful if available in significant numbers, which it wasn't, at times when the Alllied forces were tightly clustered around limited bridgeheads. But losses to Allied flak would have been high.
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Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
If it had been used at a low level (which was not permitted until - IIRC -December 1944) then I'm sure it would have improved the Luftwaffe's very limited daylight ground attack capability in the West.
A bomb sight is, as Graham has said, less important in that kind of attack. Also, the documents show that much (maybe most) of the time KG 51 was dropping AB 250 canisters, which are intended to blanket an area, not strike a specific point. In the end though, there was no "right answer" for the Luftwaffe, the Third Reich had bitten off more than it could chew with the resources it had. They needed tactical support and they needed strategic air defence and they needed them on several fronts - and they did not have the means to provide all those things. Anything the German forces did to delay the end only brought them nearer to the day the first American nuclear weapon was ready for action, anyway. |
Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
I am fully sure that the war ending in may, in Europe, save the americans to answer to this very "questionfull" question..
rémi |
Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
IIRC the highest number of sorties in a day flown by KG 51 Me 262s was at the later stages of Reichswald operations but British army seemed hardly notice them. So IMHO they would not have any significant impact on ground operations.
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Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
In discussions with Schenck he told me that part of the reason for the 262 not being successful as a fighter-bomber was due to the fact that the pilots flying the 262 Jabo were either fighter pilots or bomber pilots. At first, that might seem a strange assertion to make, but the reason he said that was as follows.
Schenck had been involved in Jabo operations since September 1940, and, basically, knew the game inside out. He pointed out that it required a special type of training to cultivate a successful Jabo pilot, and that was simply not afforded to him when he set up Kommando Schenck. According to him, the fighter pilot mentality was not instantly conditioned to low level accurate attacks (witness the naming of certain USAAF fighter ground attacks during the Battle of the Bulge - they were sarcastically called the 9th Luftwaffe weren't they, due to so many incidents of friendly fire), and the bomber pilot had been trained in the relentless discipline in keeping flying formation - fine over England in August/September 1940, but fatal in 1944/45. As Nick says, KG 51 ended up doing blanket bombing, and got malletted in the process. Schenck told me that when he saw the KG 51 losses several years after the war ended, he was saddened but not surprised, as those bomber pilots simply were not trained to throw a jet fighter around the sky once attacked by an Allied fighter. Given the inability of the 262 to materially affect the ground war, in hindsight the use of the 262 might have been better employed 100% as a pure fighter. But, Kommando Schenck tested the first jet as a fighter-bomber, and what is the primary strike aircraft in every air force today? Yep, the jet fighter-bomber. |
Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
But the concept of the fighter-bomber is much older than that!
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Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
Franek,
I know that, but the thread is about the 262 as a fighter-bomber... |
Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
Yes, indeed, but I think that the concept of a jet aircraft is older than the concept of fighter-bomber, so underlining that the primary strike aircraft in every air force today is the jet fighter-bomber is missing the point a little bit, is not it?
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Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
Franek,
You're just nit-picking, and missing the point. No point in continuing the discussion from my end. |
Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
John
The concept of fighter bomber as a standard equipment was much older than Me 262. For example, all Polish PZL P.11c fighters had bomb racks, though they were not used in anger as far as I know. I believe that in the early concepts Spitfire had to have bomb bays, nevermind the load was minimal. And were not He 51s so equipped in Spain? That said, the problem of ineffectiveness of Me 262 in this role is not related to the idea of fighter bomber or jet engine, but rather quality of German training and the aircraft itself. |
Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
I don't have the reference at hand, but Me 262 bombing was stated as one of the reasons for an RAF Wing evacuating a forward base. I believe it was Grave (B.82) in October 1944.
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Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
"what is the primary strike aircraft in every air force today? Yep, the jet fighter-bomber."
Actually, no. If the term "primary strike" has any significance at all, then it should be applied to the B-1, B-2, B-52, Tornado (IDS variants), Tu 160, and Su 24. None of these have the slightest pretence at being fighters, hyphenated or otherwise. Strike does have (or had) a particular meaning in RAF parlance, referring to nuclear missions, but offhand only the Buccaneer ever carried an S designation. And I immediately have to add the Sea Harrier, with its FRS for the naval role - where the RN had no choice of platform. So the Fleet Air Arm did indeed have the jet fighter bomber as its primary strike aircraft. There are lots of fighter-bombers around, true. But given that modern air forces do not use piston engines, rocket engines, turboprops, or hyper/warp drives - what else would they be but jet fighter bombers? |
Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
[quote=Graham Boak;53563There are lots of fighter-bombers around, true. But given that modern air forces do not use piston engines, rocket engines, turboprops, or hyper/warp drives - what else would they be but jet fighter bombers?[/quote]
Shame about the lack of piston engines in my view but I thought John was just pointing out that, for all its drawbacks at the time, the Me 262 in the bombing role was nevertheless the forerunner of the way most airforces have developed since. |
Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
Nick, the point is it was not. As I have noted before, most air forces of 1930s had fighter bombers, but this was discontinued for a very short period due to too small bombload and need of highest performance to intercept enemy aircraft. RAF 'reverted' to fighter bombers in 1941.
The only revolutionary thing with Me 262 was that it was jet in series, but actually it had no influence on tactics. |
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However, I'm not sure that pre-war airforces had fighter-bombers, in the sense that the term has been used since 1940/41. Many fighters could carry bombs, as a secondary role for no obvious purpose, but the dedicated fighter-bomber replaced the dedicated light bomber and/or the dedicated assault aircraft. The aircraft used in this role were often not seen as suitable for the true fighter role. Often this was mainly due to obsolescence in the pure role, but not always. Is a Jaguar a fighter? A Su 7 Fitter? Not really. Was a Typhoon - more arguable, that one. But the pilots flying these aircraft in WW2 did not have training as a fighter pilot, but in the fighter-bombing role. To get back to the Luftwaffe, this could be seen in the quality of the Schlachtflieger in late-war Fw.190s. |
Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
OK Graham,
I will try to be 100% exact in my terminology. The primary 'attack' aircraft. The fighter-bomber in the role of going in low and attacking specific targets in support of ground forces. Remember in the Falklands war all the hype about the Vulcans attacking Port Stanley airfield? Did nothing at all from the height they were bombing at. It was the Harriers, as fighter-bombers, who caused the real damage and took out the Argentinian aircraft on the ground. And in all the recent wars, the ones in the middle East, it was fighter-bombers that were causing most of the havoc on the ground. The point I make is that it is not the huge bombers flying many thousands of feet high that are the most effective; it is the low level fighter-bombers that cause the enemy most damage and provide the most support to their own ground forces. The Russians in WW2 bore that out. They were not interested in high level bombing, but stuck to the low level attacks that pissed off the German army so much because they were so disruptive and damaging. Christer Bergstrom brings this point out excellently in his Black Cross/Red Star books. Would German troops on the ground prefer to face a force of IL2s going in at low level against them and taking out their positions, or a high level bombing force dropping bombs in such a pattern that there was a good chance they wouldn't get hit? I think the question answers itself... Figher-bombers, not standard bombers, is my point, Graham. Matters not whether they were piston or jet engined. |
Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
I hope not to get dragged into a discussion of tactical vs strategic airpower, feeling there are merits in both. However I will simply add here that the German tankers, like the 262 pilots, would just have to suffer whichever attack the Allies choose to apply, having no fuel thanks to the actions of the strategic bomber. Further, the Allied supplies would have been brought into action across sealanes kept open by the strategic bomber in its anti-submarine role, with axis sealanes closed predominantly by the strategic bomber as minelayer, and axis rail routes shattered by, guess what?
But more than that requires a separate thread. |
Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
I think we are closing to the actual problem - terminology. There is a recent term, a close air support aircraft, which is a little bit more accurate or descriptive. Anyway, Jaguar is rather a ground attack/reconnaissance aircraft, while Su-7 is a strike aircraft or a light bomber, rather than fighter. Their (Su-7) task was to drop tactical nuclear weapons and not to fight in the air. That said, there is an obvious question, what should be considered Fighter Bomber. During the war the most popular Fighter Bomber RAF flew was... Mosquito FB.VI. It was actually a light bomber but capable to engage enemy aircraft, which stood no chance against ordinary fighters, however. Quite a different animal comparing to the German Jabo, which was just an ordinary fighter with bomb racks.
That said, it must be noted fighter-bomber of any mentioned kind is not the best solution, but rather the cheapest one, just like with anything universal. Finally, I would suggest not to discuss Il-2 here, especially as recent Russian research puts quite a different and surprising light on the subject. |
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Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
John
“Would German troops on the ground prefer to face a force of IL2s going in at low level against them and taking out their positions, or a high level bombing force dropping bombs in such a pattern that there was a good chance they wouldn't get hit?” I know that this is off the topic but I’d anyway comment that. I really don’t know. If we look Finnish experiences, Il-2s did their worst against horse-drawn supply and even that wasn’t very decisive. Finnish light infantry battalions seemed not to be much bothered by them, but in one conversation I heard that an Il-2 attack had dispersed a line infantry coy which was waiting orders in rather open and stony terrain. On the other hand the terrain was one of worst kind for infantry and I know that at the same area an infantry battalion was almost wiped out by heavy Russian artillery concentration. And Finnish AA gunners thought that Il-2s accuracy was poor and 20mm AA troop had good chance against Il-2s. What was feared most was the very powerful Soviet artillery not Il-2s. And I think that Germans who had experienced Allied carpet bombing didn’t like that experience at all. |
Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
So, getting back to the subject, can we conclude that using some of its Me 262s in the bombing role was not an entirely irrational choice for the Luftwaffe to make in 1944?
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Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
Nick
Of course it wasn’t entirely irrational, LW must try everything to hinder Allied ground troops but that’s a different thing that to say with a hindsight that that was a right thing to do. I have read a couple of British divisional histories and a couple of tank brigade histories and some memoirs of British tankmen and i cannot recall anything on being attacked by jet a/c, some mentions on attacks by 109s and 190s but they were usually ineffective. Only effective strike I can recall was LW’s night bombing strike against Orne? bridges on the first night after beginning of Operation Goodwood which according to the history of 11. ArmDiv, written straight after end of war, caused heavy losses among replacement tank crews which happened to be at target area on their way forward. No numbers were given though. Once asked on that attack on this board but nobody answered or at least nobody could give details on the attack on LW side. So can the efforts used in 262 jabo attacks be justified by results achieved. I really don’t know but doubt that. Juha |
Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
If we are concentrated only on the final efficiency of 262 jabo, there is of course the usual classical line of 'wrong role for the 262'.
But for those who have military background or at least some firm theoretical knowledge of air support, understand that 262 jabo was a correct decision. The result of of its use is unfortunate mix of expecting too much under the stress of poor avg. pilot jabo training, communication heer/lw, new technology, logistics and state of war. Just because you hit your fingers when using hammer, it does not mean that it is not the right tool for the job. |
Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
It seems to me that, all things being equal, a fighter-bomber that spends less time flying its mission (i.e. one that can make the round trip to the target faster) ought to have an improved chance of survival.
So far so good - a fast jet has potential in the role. But, if you are then so concerned to preserve the jet's secrets that you only allow it to bomb from 4000 metres or above (without a bombsight), as was done with the Me 262, then you have just squandered that potential - your aircraft may survive but it won't often hit any tactical target, so you may as well leave it on the ground and save the fuel. |
Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
Nick
I agree partly but IMHO with hindsight, after some use as Jabo to see how it worked out it should have been used as a fighter and in tactical recce role. Not that that kind decision would had any impact on how the war went. IMHO it would had made 262 better Jabo if it had had cannon with flatter trajectory than MK 108, of course only if 4000m restriction was withdrawn. Juha |
Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
Dear All,
The subject of how to employ the Me 262 as a bomber was discussed at quite some length at the famous Göring conference of late May 1944. Notes of this conference reveal to me rather surprisingly just how much Göring delved into the technical weeds of this issue. I can't possibly imagine an Air Marshall or Secretary of the Air Force being so involved with the nuts and bolts of a particular problem, let alone having sufficient technical background to do so. That said, they really wrestled with the issue of how to practically utilize the Me 262 in the bomber role. It was readily recognized that the Me 262 could not be held in a dive nor dove at particular steep angles for very long at all before exceeding its operational speed limitations. The question of what gunsight to use was discussed, the current gunsight being proposed, accepted essentially without discussion, and the subject moved on, seemingly because no one had a better idea and not because it was an effective solution. Eventually, as most know, the 2 Lotfe bomber test vehicles were developed to get around the shortcomings of a simply modified fighter. Tests with these proved quite successful. However, by this time in the war, it was really too late to move forward with their deployment. It should further be noted that these were, short of bombs, unarmed, and thus were purely bombers without fighter capability. Regards, Richard |
Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
With all responsibility, knowing pilots who flew such missions, I can state that Me 262 was not suitable for such bombings because of its speed. Look for Americans. Until they got appropriate sights, Spad was the ultimate bomber.
While I do not see any controversy making Me 262 Jabo, I note that it was just unsuitable for the task. |
Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
Dear Franek,
It depends on your definition of "unsuitable". If it means it couldn't drop its bombload onto the target, I have to disagree, as tests with the Lotfe bomber variant proved otherwise. If you mean, on the other hand, that the bombload was too small to be effective in the bombing role, then you may have a point. Regards, Richard |
Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
Pretty neat to be able to 'solve' this question 60 years after the fact......
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Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
Dear George,
What's your point? The Me 262 was constantly under development to the end of the war. The Lotfe bomber was obviously a development to improve the aircraft's employment in the bomber role, which it effectively demonstrated it was capable of doing. It came too late to be put into mass production. And, by the time it was demonstrated, emphasis on the bomber role had diminished in favor of the fighter role and, in specific, as a bomber interceptor. Ironically, the aircraft was an answer looking for a purpose. Mis-used in its original guise as a bomber, it was also mis-used similarly as a fighter, to wit, the Nowotny dibacle. Subsequently, Steinhoff and company would not relent on their advocacy of the aircraft in the fighter-to-fighter role, to which it was ill-suited, wasting valuable time. Even when the target was forced upon the fighter force to directly attack the bombers, the strategy to do so was flawed, forcing another delay and frantic effort to redevelop a workable offense, which was finally put into effect in Feb. or Mar. 1945. The Me 262 had been rushed into service long before the bugs had been worked out. These, alone, accounted for many of the combat problems. And, it wasn't just the engines, but the airframe, as well. In the fall of 1944 in a complaint by KG-51, they requested 3 spare noses for each aircraft, as the guns or gun barrels would work themselves loose in a mission, requiring replacement of the nose. Parts had to be beefed up because they were inadequate to the rigors of field and combat conditions. It amazes me that, as late as April 1945, technical meetings were being held on developments of various variants as the nation collapsed around their ears. In a mia culpa, it is far easier being an armchair critic when seeing what happened in hindsight. Regards, Richard |
Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
“The subject of how to employ the Me 262 as a bomber was discussed at quite some length at the famous Göring conference of late May 1944.”
Richard, thanks for that info and for the analysis in Your 9th November 2007, 03:12 message. Juha |
Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
If I remember correctly, the Bridge at Remagen was the only time German jet bombing missions (Me 262 and Ar 234) were used in a relatively sustained manner against a fixed target, heavily defended by Allied AA and fighter patrols. I don't have my references at hand, but if someone can shed some light on the missions, it might give the best indication as to whether the German jets of the time would have performed effectively.
As an aside, an Ar 234 nuisance raid against a RAF airfield in Belgium in 44/45 caused minor damage to RAF Meteors on the ground and was probably the closest thing to jet-versus-jet combat in WW2. |
Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
Richard
It is a simple issue of what is the target for a fighter bomber. It is obvious you would not bomb a city with them, as you need big bombers or at least a number of V1s to have an effect (apart of psychological perhaps). Fighter bombers attack small targets of tactical importance and therefore high accuracy is needed. Me 262 was way too fast to make an accurate target approach, and technology of the time not allowed for precision bombing from level flight. Well, even today, with laser guided bombs it is still a hard task. Thus there was nothing wrong with the concept, but the platform was wrong. |
Me 262 A-2
Hello Geoff
Here is a short excerpt from the rather dated The Warplanes of the Third Reich by William Green concerning KG 51's raids against the Nijmegen bridge. "The Me 262s of KG 51 now began to make regular attacks on the strategic Nijmegen road bridge held by British forces, and fighter patrols and anti-aircraft defences were ineffective in dealing with them. The Me 262s flew singly and during daylight approached at altitudes of the order of 25,000 ft., releasing their bombs at about 18,000 ft. in a shallow dive. At dusk when viability was poor they went in at about 1,000 ft., diving to 500 ft. to drop their bombs, and at night they approached at approximately 12,000 ft. and dived to 8,000 ft. before releasing their bombs. Under these conditions of high speed and rapid changes of altitude heavy anti-aircraft artillery was useless, although the bombing was quite indiscriminate. Even though the attacks were little more than nuisance raids the fact that the Me 262s could attack at will was intensely annoying, and both umbrella and radial barrages were maintained around the bridge in an attempt to solve the problem, but failed to knock down one Me 262. Spitfire XIVs and Tempest Vs were assigned the task of patrolling the bridge, but enjoyed little success, and on most occasions when the RAF fighters did succeed in "bouncing" the jet fighter-bombers, the Me 262s were able to half-roll and dive away, or to climb away at a much higher rate than their attackers." Please remember that this is a dated source so perhaps new information will differ but perhaps this can help you. Horrido! Leo |
Re: Should the Me262 been used exclusively as a jabo ....
Dear Franek,
I'm dealing with one or more test reports of the Lotfe bombers' bombing accuracy. I believe it is pointless for you to argue against the facts. Regards, Richard |
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