Bf 109F-2 WNr. 8240 III. JG 3
 

Hi Friends,

Could anybody feel information on this a/c? Pilot? Place?
http://old.messerschmitt-bf109.de/pi...9f2_182-swfoto
Thank you very much to all.

E. Brettas
www.avesdobrasil.com.br
Bird of Brazil

Re: Bf 109F-2 WNr. 8240 III. JG 3
 

It was listed as a damaged (25%) on one occation and then a loss on another. However this photo would appear to be when it was damaged, 40% by Walter Oesau on July 7, 1941 when he crashlanded after a fight with an enemy fighter. The markings match. The local is gived as Polonnoje.

Re: Bf 109F-2 WNr. 8240 III. JG 3
 

The problem with that ID though it certainly seems logical, is that the kill tally on the tail doesn't match Oesau's at the time - think he had 40+. I think this was discussed here previously.

Re: Bf 109F-2 WNr. 8240 III. JG 3
 

Oi John Beaman,
Where is Polonnoje?

Re: Bf 109F-2 WNr. 8240 III. JG 3
 

Polonnoje is in the Ukraine, near Kiew.
III./JG 3 was there from 6.7.41 to 21.7.41.

Re: Bf 109F-2 WNr. 8240 III. JG 3
 

Hi,

Thank you very much!

E. Brettas
www.avesdobrasil.com.br
Bird of Brazil

Re: Bf 109F-2 WNr. 8240 III. JG 3
 

You are correct Jim. He actually had claimed 58 by that time. Perhaps they had not been confirmed, although that does seem a stretch between 58 and the number of marks on the tail. However, everything else fits.

Re: Bf 109F-2 WNr. 8240 III. JG 3
 

Hi,

just a thought: what if he started counting "again" at the Russian front? Maybe those vics marked on the rudder are only his eastern victories, or optionally, his victories achieved during his service in JG 3?

Best regards
RM

Re: Bf 109F-2 WNr. 8240 III. JG 3
 

The first two victories seems to have roundels above them - at least they look a lot lighter than the rest... Would be nice with a high resolution shot at the rudder...

Re: Bf 109F-2 WNr. 8240 III. JG 3
 

Olt.Herbert Kijewski?
He replaced wounded Hptm. Andres on the 28.08.41 and was acting Gruppenkommander. He claimed 3 victories in the West but only two were credited:
- 06.06.40 Spitfire
- 07.06.40 Spitfire
- 05.09.40 Hurricane (not credited)
His 18th victory came on the 26.08.41 and his 19th on the 11.09.41.
It`s only a assumption, but ?

Regards

Robert

Re: Bf 109F-2 WNr. 8240 III. JG 3
 

A theory or two only:
1.
It was not uncommon practice that a number of victories was painted within a wrath of for example oak leaves after receiving a decoration such as the RK, or perhaps after an even number of victories.
Can it be that the top of the rudder was to be decorated by such a decoration commemorating an award or achievement? The picture of this F-2 shows 18 victory markings, whereof the first two seem to have circles or cockades painted above, followed by the others having a dark "spot" visible above the remaining bars, possibly red stars.

Assuming that the commemorative victory emblem would have been painted as the "Half century" celebration after 50 victories and comparing with the victory listing of Oeasau at http://www.luftwaffe.cz/oesau.html
The following is possible:

After his 50:th victory, a Spitfire on 16.5.1941, he is listed for a further Hurricane on 28.5.1941 over Pas-de-Calais. Depending on the actual known confirmed and approved victories at the time, the first two bars with roundels might represent his last two kills assumed won in the West. (Plus or minus one victory is possible at the time, I believe.)
The remaining 16 with red stars are then consequently his first Barbarossa campaign victories

2.
However as no such painted commemoration is visible, another theory mentioned earlier on this thread is simpler and perhaps more plausible:
As his victories from No. 49 and onwards came while flying with JG 3, according to the same source above, the theory that the bars only represent Oesau's victories while flying for JG 3 is possible.

The first two with roundels on top would then represent two out of his last three confirmed victories on the Channel front. The third was perhaps confirmed later? The remaining 16 are consequently the first 16 victories from Barbarossa.
If so, this photo might have occurred around the first week of July 1941when he might have been in the Ukraine area. Vegetation and nature in the background does no speak against time and location, I believe.

According to the above it might well have been the 109 of Oesau. - At least far from impossible.

Just some thoughts..........

Re: Bf 109F-2 WNr. 8240 III. JG 3
 

And who's to say that the rudder is not a replacement to the aircraft in question?

Stephen

Re: Bf 109F-2 WNr. 8240 III. JG 3
 

Which is basically the same as attaching a replacement aircraft to the rudder?

Leaving the jokes aside, when neglecting the rudder, we still have a F-2 in III/ JG 3 markings with Gruppenkommandeur markings, crash landed in an open country summer landscape, the fuselage adorned with a yellow tailband.
Assuming that the rudder, with first cokades and thereafter red stars over the victory bars, does origin from the same campaign front as the fuselage, Oesau must be a prime suspect behind this "mystery" aircraft. Or ?

The time given by aircraft version, unit, tactical markings, victory markings, vegetation and landscape together, fits reasonably well with Ukraine in the summer of 1941, which also coincides with III/JG 3 whereabouts at that time.

Re: Bf 109F-2 WNr. 8240 III. JG 3
 

No offence taken, Glad, about the joke(s) comment. I was making light of the fact that "we" should be thinking outside of the box instead of being transfixed on the tally - that's all. ;)

Stephen

Re: Bf 109F-2 WNr. 8240 III. JG 3
 

WNr. 8240 is recorded in the losses for 7.Jul 41. as 40% damaged. If the machine was repaired in field, it is entirely possible that it was involved in a later unreported incident during the summer of 41 (less/= 10%) - maybe when Kijewski was acting Kdr. MAchine later went to JG 51 and was again reported damaged 9.Aug 42 and was finally a total loss on 3.Sep when Karl-Heinz Weber was forced to bailout of this machine.

Re: Bf 109F-2 WNr. 8240 III. JG 3
 

Re: Bf 109F-2 WNr. 8240 III. JG 3
 

SMF 144 :) History can also be a bit of fun! (But still dead serious)

John B. Nicely put ! (Good to learn I might have been on the right track......at least not too deep into the darkest forest)

Cheers all!