Dresden casualties and an Atom bomb target?
 

Just finished reading Frederick Taylors superb book "Dresden"
I am still puzzled though, since the end of the Cold War we now have many more details on the raid and the book indicates caualties between 25,000 and 200,000+. I have always though the human losses were about the 40,000 region...do we now have true figures?
The book also claims that it was the target city for the Atom Bomb if the war in Europe had continued, do we know if this is true and how close it came to getting a green light, i appreciate the Atom bomb was not ready until 1945.
Certainly loooks to have been a well planned and carried out raid demonstrating to the approaching Russians what RAF bomber command was capable of of doing to a single city in one night.

Re: Dresden casualties and an Atom bomb target?
 

It may very well have been the culmination of a (runaway) process.

You can't expect a weapon as Bomber Command to simply stop a strategy even when such a strategy is little more than kicking a dead horse.

Dresden was a virgin target in a target poor enviorment, that alone was sufficient reason to stage a late war raid. Bomber Command leadership being dedicated to following its main strategy to the end.

A more tactical deployment would probably have saved more allied lives in the end, but that would not have found favor with the air minded strategist at all.

If anything these late war bombings were a demonstration to the own team, to guarantee a strong position in the post war armed forces. The strategic airmen were bombing the hell out of Germany in 1945 to show that their's was the war winning arm.

Re: Dresden casualties and an Atom bomb target?
 

Hello Ruy,
I agree totally that the raid from a war winning aim was pointless, however i think it was more aimed at stopping the war running over against the Soviets after the soon to be German surrender. From a bombing point of view the raid is fascinating, it was only one in a long run of RAF city busting raids but, unfortunatley for the Dresdeners it all came together with ideal weather conditions on that night.
I still would like to know the new ideas on losses in the city

Re: Dresden casualties and an Atom bomb target?
 

.. what is the point of this thread ...aside from inviting an almighty row..if you've read Taylor's book then you're not going to get any 'fresh' arguments here...

Re: Dresden casualties and an Atom bomb target?
 

Why am i inviting a row? who is after an argument?
I have asked several legitimate questions that the book did not answer fully and i was wondering if any members on here had new information as the network of people and knowledge through this site is vast.
If you feel their is no point to this thread then can i suggest you do not answer it.
Regards
Jon

Re: Dresden casualties and an Atom bomb target?
 

I don't think something like true figures will ever be determined for the Dresden bombing. Hundred of thousands of people (mostly German refugees, but also soldiers, Allied POWs, forced workers, concentration camps prisoners... in 1945 more than 10% of people in Germany weren't German, and their fate is even less recorded than Germans) disapperead in the late month of war, and it will be impossible to find most of them, so allowing any people with an idea behind their mind to give any number about the "body count" in Dresden.

It seems to me that 35 000 dead is now the casualty figure accepted by the most of the "serious" German historians as the most probable.

By the way, most raids in 1945 in Eastern Germany had seen for long the numbers of dead artificially inflated by Soviet or communists, that counted with the raid casualties people that died in the ground battle when Red Army invaded the area. For example, Postdam in April 1945 where the raid casualty figure was reduced from 5000 to 1500. Another example is the USAAF raid on Berlin in early February 1945, often cited as having done 25000 dead and that probably did only 10% of this number.

Re: Dresden casualties and an Atom bomb target?
 

Hi Laurent
Thanks for this answer, much appreciated.

Re: Dresden casualties and an Atom bomb target?
 

Indeed, and the same occured with other losses, eg. Soviets claimed 4,5 million people killed in Auschwitz-Birkenau. This propaganda figure was only quite recently reduced to confirmed and much more realistic about 1,5 million. The others did it as well, eg. Germans exagerrated number of bodies found at Katyn (actually 'overclaimed bodies' were at another locations and recovered only a few years ago), another accepted number being I believe 2 millions expulsed Germans, the number coming from Churchill's speach.
The one must take any such numbers with extreme caution.

Re: Dresden casualties and an Atom bomb target?
 

These are legitimate questions and I am puzzled at the insistence of some to prohibit or even question the motives of anyone asking. This type of fire bombing was given as retaliation against the V-1 bombing against England. And yes, the number of dead in various cases were inflated or deflated for propaganda purposes during and after the war. V-2 strikes were initially blamed on gas main explosions in England to help avoid panic.

It is unclear if Dresden was an atom bomb target. The Americans received unexploded V-1s and parts from the British, produced a copy they called the "Loon," and were planning on launching them against the Germans but the end of the war in Europe came first.


Ed

Re: Dresden casualties
 

The final report of the Höhere SS and Polizeiführer dated 22 March 1945 gives the following statistics:

13,441 dwellings destroyed;
202,041 dead recovered, mostly women and children.

The report also states that the final total of deceased would amount to around 250,00 since many had been totally incinerated.

Only about 30% of the dead could be identified.

The claim of the East German Communist governtment after the war of 35,000 is a fairy tale. Since Stalin had requested Churchill to bomb Dresden, the communists tried to minimize the atrocity.

Source: Luftwaffe '45 by Manfred Griehl

Re: Dresden casualties and an Atom bomb target?
 

I would go with Klaus on this one. Dresden was absolutely packed with refugees when the raid took place. Most of the victims came under the category of "Im Osten verschollen", disappeared in the east. I have talked with a survivor of the raid, whose entire family was incinerated. After hearing firsthand what happened, the low estimates of casualties become ludicrous and an affront to the memory of the dead. My father was in Cottbus during the raid, and the ground was shaking there during the raid on Dresden.

Re: Dresden casualties and an Atom bomb target?
 

Thanks for the sensible responses from everyone, no heated arguments here.
I agree that when you look at the facts, Dresden full of refugees from other cities and the East, the fact that Dresden was probably one of the few places left in Germany that was still able to be burned as it had not as yet received any major raids, little Flak allowing low accurate bombing, the comments on higher than 40,000 dead are certainly possible.
The evidence for the City being an Atomic bomb target look to come mainly from the German Propoganda side however it also points at the fierce German counter offensive in the Ardennes as shocking the Allies into realising the war may drag on into and past 1945, when the bomb would have been usable. As the book states, it is fair to assume that had Germany continued to be capable of holding back the ground offensive the first Atomic attack of the War could well have been against Germany.

Again thanks for a well balanced and mature discussion on this subject.

Re: Dresden casualties and an Atom bomb target?
 

Sorry but this seems not to be true. The number of the Berlin raid was inflated by the Nazis by the factor 10.
The same is about Dresden. The original police report (after the raids in February) gives a number of "only" 25.000 dead people. Later someone (most probably from Goebbels) add a 0. The official number in the GDR was 35.000 dead people.
So what is the origin of these numbers? Around 25.000 bodies and parts of bodies were found in Dresden after the raids. These were buried at different sites in Dresden and counted. After the war there existed a myth about the high temperatures in the town made people burning so complete with no traces. So the GDR added around 10.000 dead people couldnt be buried. This figure was also quite common in the west. But this is not right, so the real is 25.000+ but not over 30.000.
(Source of this: I know some people who are member in a comission of historians in Dresden, who have the order to research the dead figure. BTW i live in DD since 28 years ;) This is a link to the "Kommission" http://www.dresden.de/ger/02/10/05/c...98c1f90c746a95)

What about the higher figures?
250.000 comes from Propaganda Ministerium (adding a 0)
over 200.000 comes from a german army Major, he was "Adjudant" of the Commanding general in Dresden. He tells his story (and the dead figure) in the 1970s, but all his statings are wrong, including the locations and weapons of the german defense sites in Dresden (was his task in 1945)!
"The final report of the Höhere SS and Polizeiführer dated 22 March 1945", is an falsification of David Irving (is proved by a court). Indeed the report counted 20.204 dead. (Source: http://www.holocaustdenialontrial.or...ns005.asp#5.2d)

For all who interested german wikipedia article about Dresden 1945 is recommened.

Re: Dresden casualties and an Atom bomb target?
 

One adding about "hundred thousands" refugees. It is true that many refugees came to Dresden, but nearly the same number leaved Dresden at the same day. This has been proved by many witnesses ( i habe even one in my familie leaving Dresden and already seeing the first RAF markings!), trains were coming in and going out the whole time. So in Dresden there were "only" some thousand refugees waiting on their train to the west.

Re: Dresden casualties and an Atom bomb target?
 

Possibly the best summary of the documentation sources, opposing arguments and rational analysis regarding Dresden casultieswas presented in the Deborah Lippstadt/Penguin trial a few years ago. IMHO, the expert witness presentation on Dresden is particularly important from a historian's view as it shows how sources were manipulated and how once "myths" are started how difficult it is to put them to rest. The recent history of Germany begining with the Weimar republic and continuing through the end of the third reich is marked with many examples of historical "myths" possibly exceeded only by those that originated during the same period from the USSR. As a historian, I firmly believe the truth is out there, but one may have to look hard to find it, listening to and reading a great deal of lies and distortions along the way. IMHO, it again appears that when this board strays from airplanes, quality of the board discussions declines significantly.

Best Regards,

Artie Bob

Re: Dresden casualties and an Atom bomb target?
 

Problem in the case of Dresden is that all parties have a stake, including the former allies. Which makes no party free of bias. As long as people keep that in mind, you can have a fair evaluation.

Re: Dresden casualties and an Atom bomb target?
 

Well it isn't that bad, just that some people find it difficult to respect the opinion of others if it is contrary to their believe. By escalating the discussion into an argument they block any discussion period.

It is an effective means of stopping what could otherwise become an interesting debate.

But IMHO it would be a shame if TOCH! were only to deal with RLM#, WNr. and production, claims and loss figures etc.

Unfortunately targets of indiscriminate bombings (by either side) will remain part of our interest and should remain part of what we can discuss.

If not, well I'd soon lose interest in hosting this forum.

Re: Dresden casualties and an Atom bomb target?
 

Well said Ruy. And with all due respect to appropriate caution, as indicated by ArtieBob, I think one problem of the internet is denouncing "myths" and unconventional statements. I am persuing several leads to information that I would not have if I had simply accepted them as myths. In the end, if there is nothing to find, I will find nothing. So far, I am finding good information to build on.


Regards,
Ed

Re: Dresden casualties and an Atom bomb target?
 

What appears to have added to the high casualties is the fact that when the second wave arrived over the city the fires were so well alight, the master bomber made a decision then,to shift the bombing to an area not designated as the main target, this then hit areas people had ran too during the earlier bombing. Also Dresdens shelters were poor when compared to other often bombed German cities and the public looked to have stayed below ground and died from lack of oxygen rather than risk the HE above. One German soldier on leave describes how he and 5 others survived in the middle of the city by staying above ground behind a low garden wall out of the wind, beating each others clothes when they caught fire.
From an RAF point of view the raid was nothing special with Bomb loads or numbers of aircraft, it just all came together on that terrible night. The tales of fighters straffing civilians now look to be untrue, this has only been disproved by people being willing to discuss the Dresden raid.
And can i just say i agree with the last two posts ,we must be able to discuss these attacks no matter how bitter they taste in our mouths.

Re: Dresden casualties and an Atom bomb target?
 

So what is the origin of these numbers? Around 25.000 bodies and parts of bodies were found in Dresden after the raids. These were buried at different sites in Dresden and counted. After the war there existed a myth about the high temperatures in the town made people burning so complete with no traces. So the GDR added around 10.000 dead people couldnt be buried. This figure was also quite common in the west. But this is not right, so the real is 25.000+ but not over 30.000. ......

It seems that counting the deads in a totally ruined city, is something like impossible, in fact these figures hv to be read as at least 25.000 deads ,ok we found the bodies, now question is how many bodies were not found, not just the english but american too attacked Dresden the english twice,
concerning the inflated figures, its not a "nazi" particularity, at the end of the war 15+ millions died in the intern.camps, now figures hv by more than 10 fold reduced,
Futher as history is always nd maybe many more than in the past a political weapon, I don't know why we hv to believe more the todays " put on the market" figures than those of the past.

Concerning the "only" 30.000 deads, "only" is to report to 100.000/200.000
previous figure, for years in Germany, it was quite " de mauvais gout" or bad educated people that speak of these things, now we could speak openly because there is "only" 30.000 deads, in fact the worst thing is that the "nazi" exagerated the casualties, but 30.000 even not necessary to disturb the good people with so few, nd in fact if there is 30.000 people dead, as the previous "official" figure was 102.000, 72.000 people ar still alive...finally a good news

remi

Re: Dresden casualties and an Atom bomb target?
 

The topic is now shifting and the thread has run its course.

I'm locking the topic, maybe next time we can keep it constructive and focused.