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65 anniversary of Katyn massacre
A few days ago 65 years passed since Soviet government signed order to execute Polish POWs. In the effect 20,000+ Polish officers and policemen were murdered, most if not all receiving a shot into the back of head.
Among them were aviators, a few of them for example. Zbigniew Franciszek Szubert of III/6 Dyon was a fighter pilot, downed and wounded was captured by Soviets. Janina Lewandowska, daughter of gen. Dowbor-Muśnicki, was a liason pilot on an unarmed training aircraft, taken POW she was handed over to Soviets by Germans. Zygmunt Babiński in 1920 almost alone stopped Budenny's cavalry, straffing it in a Bristol Fighter. Between the wars he was a well known sport flyer. Part of mass graves were uncovered by Germans in 1943. After Polish request to Red Cross to investigate, Soviet Union single handedly broke relations with Polish government. Post war a few German POWs were trialed and executed by Soviets 'for murdering Polish POWs'. So called Katyn massacre was surrounded by lies, not only Soviet (which is at least understandable) but also by Western powers, afraid of spoiling good relations with Moscow. Now, on the anniversary, Putin announced that all proceedings concerning investigation of the crime are stopped and that Russia will not hand over the files as they are secret. At the very same time European Parliament refused to commemorate murdered officers, which are only a symbol of Soviet repressions. EP already commemorated Auschwitz Camp victims as well as those kille din Madrid bomb attack a year ago. |
Katyn
I feel this time Franek is entirely right.
Besides, Putin OUGHT TO KNOW that trying to bury events of this kind does not work. See the extermination of the Armenians by the Turcs or the British colonial massacres, i.a. in India, or the wholesale extermination of the rightful inhabitants and owners of North and South America, the "Indians". There were no mass media and no TV reports then but all the same... The main result achieved, if any, is rising suspicion and accusations, which then even can become worse than the truth, however embarrassing for Russia and Putin... |
Yep, Franek is totally right, we should never forget that terrible tragedy that happened in the Katyn forest in 1940. Here is the Katyn Memorial:
http://www.fco.gov.uk/Files/kimage/Intro5_150x195.jpg Regards |
Re: 65 anniversary of The „Katyn” Genocide - Russian Crime and Dishonor!
The „Katyn” Genocide - Russian Crime and Dishonor!
Hi Farnek I am a little bit confused reading your post about Katyn genocidy. I feel you have done not very detail info about this Russian’s crime. So I have decied to make aditional inputs to your post. In the Polish Soviet-Russian relations in XX ceuntry there are several “hot spots”. One of them is 17 IX 1939 and the next following one is “Katyn GenocityAffair”. I think that “13 April” is a “better” memory day for this anniversary and it is very symbolic date. On 13 April German radio had made public information about finding in Katyn forest bodies of 15.000 killed by Rusian Polish officers (missing PoW in Russia). It was a propaganda data, in fact in Katyn forest were mordured by Russian 4.424 Polish officers (including 183 airmen) coming from only one Russian PoW camp - Kozielsk. German then did not have full information and picture about this affair simply overclaimng amount of mordered Poles by Russin almost 3-4 times. Russian do not want to admit now (in 2005) that the Katyn was genocity in spite of that they officaly had said about this crime in 1945 that it was the German genocity (Soviet persecutor Rudenko used such a words during the Nurenberg trial). Russians are saying now that there was simply oridinary killing, no any genocidy, denaing and refusing to admit that it was genocity. For Poles it is obvious, it was genocidy as many more were made by Germans in 1939-45 on Polish citisents (Poles, Jews, Gypsies, Ukrainian, Bialorrusian, ect.). Beside “Katyn forest” the next places of Russian genocidy are: 2. Russian had mordered in Charkov prison the same time 3.820 Polish officers (including 83 airmen) - they were commming from Russian Ostaszkov PoW camp. 3. Russian in Miednoye had mordered next 6.311 Poles the same time - mostly police men corps (also were 2 airmen). 4. In other Russian prisons in the same time were mordered next 7.395 Poles, mostly civils, private owner, persecutors, state and local adminstration representatives, a few offciers ect (there were next 60 airmen). Among almost 22.000 mordered Poles by Russian were in all 328 Polish airmen (young and old officers). Genocidy was done according official Stalin and his team (Molotow, Beria ect.) order given to NKVD’s fire squads as Franke have mentiedned earlier. These about 7.400 civils were mordered by Russian in Zachodnia Bialorusi and Zachodnia Ukraina prisons - former Polish terrory inavaded and occupied by Russian. Among Russian’s victims were: 48 university proffesors, 820 doctors, 1.500 teachers of high and primary schools and ingeneurs, 110 writers and journalists - no workers, no peasants – they were intelectuals. One also should know that after 22 VI 1941 (22.VI - 1.VII 1941) in all Soviet prisons on Western Bialorus and Western Ukriana NKWD priosn’s guards had killed next about 20.000-35.000 Polish citisens (Poles, Jews, Ukrainian, Bialorusian), among killed then were also a few (no more then several tens soldiers) German PoW (mostly comming from Luftwaffe units crews, shot down over Soviet territory) who where taken to the prison duirng he first days of German-Soviet war. Killed people were mostly political prisoners, ordianry criminals were freed by NKVD’s guards. This is also less even know Russian genocidy made on “Poles” prisoners. One also should know that in 1944-45 Soviet marial courts had killed several tens Germans soldiers and officers captured and accused exactly according Soviets courts/persecutors for “Katyn Genocity”! Soviet persecutors used exactly the word genocidy towards German accused and killed for this “Katyn crime! I say again during Nurymberg trial Soviet presecutor (Rudenko) had also said that Katyn was German genocity and the German had responsible for mordering about 11.000 Polish officers. This was said then by Soviet side not for others! Now in 2004/5 Russian side (“president Putin’s team”) is saying the Katyn was simple ordianry crime made by Soviet. After “60 years” they have changed mind and preception of this case! Now in Russian-Polish realtions the Katyn genocity is directly campared by Russian with mordering by Poles about 100.000 (or 50-60.000 depends) Sovite PoW captured during Polish-Soviet wars 1919-1920. This figure is publicised very often by Russian as a counterbalance to own genocidy. Such figure is higly publicited after surfaced on the begining of 90-ties the true about Katyn genocidy, when at last Russian very stubornly have admited – Yes - no any German but we, Russian had terminated Poles PoW in our “peace and love” camps. The fact about this “Pole’s genocidy” of Soviet PoW in 1919-1920 is pattern of simply Soviet-Russian data PR manipulation. There are plenty of true proofs that fact are agains this high figures. In Polish prisons had died for illness, some kind of lack of medicine treatmend, typhus, flue about 16-18.000 Soviet-Russian PoW. As many PoW had died in camps during WW I, WW II in other wars. The main point of difference is this one: there were no any deliberatly Polish state’s or army’s or unit’s orders to kill any Soviet PoW in any Polish camps in 1919-1921. This is crucial difference. The same fate (daying of illnes, lack of tratment) had the Polish PoW kept in Soviet camps in 1919-1921. Soviet-Russian side also forgot to say what they did with white army offciers (mostly Russian) taken to the prison in 1918-1921 during civil war in Russia. I can say one – Soviet-Russian were not human orieted to own white army Russian offciers. Soviet-Russian pseudohistorians are saying about Poles that in Tuchola prison, as they love to compare and call it - “camps of death” - were killed about 22.000 Soviets PoW in 1920-1921. Fact are against this idiots, and not true claims. Soviet PoW were kept there for about 13 months (from the end VIII 1920 to X 1921). In fact in Tuchola had died exactly 1.867 Soviets PoW. About 11 time less then Russian are cliamed. Most cases of dead there were from ephidemy of typhuis, czerwonka, cholera. Soviet-Russian side do not want to say or admit that about 25.000 ex Soviet PoW had changed the side and had joined Polish Army to fight against Bolshevist-Soviet Regime (1919-1920). The real figures of died in the Polish camps (1920-1921) are quite similar but the reason of these deads are different. Second many Polish PoW were killed by Soviet too in 1920-1921 - read Isaac Babel diary for example, when he quite well writen about Russian treatemnt of Polish PoW. Offciers were deliberatly mordered on the spot! Clising this I can proof that any Soviet PoW were not deliberatly killed according any official paper written by state, army, unit order (given by Pilsudzki or somebody else). I can proof too that Russian party and goverment had ordered in March 1940 to mordered Poles due to that Poles were Poles – origin and nation. So Russian did the genocidy (the similar to German genocidy) because Russian had mordered healsy, inteligent, selected people by deliberatly sentenced them for death. They were killed because were Poles elite and they did not want to co-operate with “Stalin” – they had refused to joined Soviet Army and side. They were Polish patritos not Soviet orietned traitors (only several tens of this 14.500 officers and police man changed the side! And save their life) We Poles fought against German and their tighly supporters Russian ally, this is second not nice true for Soviet firends of Hitler. Russians were Hitler’s brathers in arms (kameraden) and supported Germans with fuel, food, row materials, and also worked in co-operation against Polish undegroond movments (Gestapo-NKWD meetings in Poland in December 1939 in Zakopane - Poland territory occupied by Germans). Ending this I remeber one lesson was told by my cousin. He was several years in Syberia (1945-52). He told me such a thing about Russian, he had lerned it in “matuszka Russia” - “When you will be catched on hand, begin imiedietly to laudly cry this is not your hand!”. This is the same with “Katyn genocidy”. Russian behaviour is always the same. Russian loudly cry that are not responsilbe for these gonocidy is a simple empty talking. Katyn was Soviet genocidy and now is the Russian disgrace, dishonor. Regards Mirek Wawrzynski a Pole |
Re: 65 anniversary of Katyn massacre
I was only about 11 or 12 when I read about the Katynwood Massacre in the WW II history magazines of the early 1970's. I remember even at that age how deaply it effected me. I read these magazines to study what I thought was the glory and excitment of WW II. I used to think about the article all the time, but it has been many years since I have done this. Thank you for the reminder.
Bob |
Genocide
Mirek I agree with you but please note : the word you want to use is genocide in English.
Nevertheless I don't think we can say that the USSR, or more accurately the Russians, committed a "genocide" in Poland. A genocide is the systematic killing of all members of a nation etc. including workers, farmers etc., not only the intellectual élite. I think the Russians just wanted Poland to become part of Russia again (like in the past) - always that horrible Russian imperialism (see Georgia and other countries...). If the Russians really had tried to commit a genocide in Poland they'd killed at least 10 million Poles, possibly more (there were approx. 30 million I think), proving the intention of SYSTEMATIC elimination of this nation. They "only" wanted to eliminate those who were educated and able to think (teachers, writers, officers, politicians, doctors etc.), and understood politics, in order not to have any trouble when integrating Poland into Russia. Besides, most of them disliked communism very much, which was a crime already in Soviet eyes. Especially during the Vietnam War which ended 1975 all those disgusting communists and communist-lovers in the WEST kept repeating that the USA were committing a "genocide" in Vietnam. They systematically misused this word, which ought to be used carefully, for their low propaganda purposes. This is why this word lost part ot its meaning - because of these dirty, barking communist traitors, who now have become very, very discrete... The massive bombing of North and even South Vietnam by the USA certainly was not okay but this was a brutal and stupid way of waging war, no genocide. This is the way American people and governments are : "the big stick". Ha! |
Genocide - a definition
Weird, a thread was closed to avoid a discussion on a subject that is clearly defined and not to be discussed.
A UN convention on genocide of 1948 in article 2 says: In the present Convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:
Several actions of Soviet Union fit the definition not only in regard of Poles but also other nations like Chechens, Tatars or Ukrainians to name a few. Why to discuss the obvious? |
Re: Genocide - a definition
Quote:
Here have your pie and eat it. |
Re: 65 anniversary of Katyn massacre
War is legalized killing. Then we have the illegal killing of combatants and non-combatants. In all cases, everyone is equally dead. In my opinion, no one should be killing anyone but the legal and illegal killing continues, daily.
Franek, if you want to complain to anyone, complain to the German and Russian governments directly. Your desire to call this genocide on the Polish people is just part of the killing of people by other people for ages. Your nationalistic displays here have no bearing on actual history. The truth is known by the survivors. And there was an American report on the Katyn Forest Massacre. My father was in the Polish Army. Regards, Ed P.S. There is an English language book by Polish General Anders. You should read it. And if it is hatred you have for the Germans and/or Russians, talk to someone about this. "Hate is too great a burden to bear." |
Re: 65 anniversary of Katyn massacre
Ed
I am not sure what is your point but you definetelly confuse war with genocide, both being clearly defined. Genocide may occur without any war, as sample of Soviet or German (Gypsies) genocides indicate. Otherwise I really do not understand what my post reminding anniversary of this murder had anything to 'nationalistic displays'. Finally, complains to German or Russian governments are just only part of the story. It is a fact both British and US governments deliberatelly lied about the massacre and they still do not admit to. I understand they are elected democratically, so I feel free to complain to their electors. |
Re: 65 anniversary of Katyn massacre
There is too much killing in the world, legal and illegal. Murder, war, genocide, the common theme is all are dead. Illegal killing occurs daily, around the world. That is my point. And apparently, no one is thinking about the past, so the killing, genocide, whatever you want to call it-- the killing of humans by other humans-- continues today. Just because one tribe of humans kills another tribe to fit the description of genocide-- all are equally dead no matter how they died. And the criminals who do it, some of them, perhaps many of them, escape justice, but what are YOU going to do about it?
I want to see an end to it, the killing. Ed |
62 years ago Katyn was made public. Genocide issue.
62 years ago Katyn was made public (on 13 IV 1943) + genocide issue.
Going back to disscution began by Franke, I have attached some useful links which all reading in English and wanting to broaden their knowledge can find much more about "Katyn". On April 13 1943 Berlin Radio announced this find to the world: "A great pit was found, 28 metres long and 16 metres wide, filled with twelve layers of bodies of Polish officers, numbering about 3,000. They were clad in full military uniform, and while many of them had their hands tied, all of them had wounds in the back of their necks caused by pistol shots. The identification of the bodies will not cause great difficulties because of the mummifying property of the soil and because the Bolsheviks had left on the bodies the identity documents of the victims. It has already been ascertained that among the murdered is a General Smorawinski from Lublin.". This is from WIKIPEDIA. see more going to: Very useful source information about Katyn is WIKIPEDIA http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_Massacre Very detail site about whole Karyn's" issue http://www.mswia.gov.pl/mednoe.html Katyn in Nuremberg http://nobsnews.blogspot.com/1994/12/katyn-in-nuremberg.html Genocide's issue Thanks for correction Hawk-Eye, my speling check does not work so it looks as it looks. I would like to explain about the case of genocide and meaning of it. This is important in WW II hitory Genocide - if you look on this meaning as a vertical "example of killing - agains all, antion like Jews, Gypsies" you may say that Katyn was no a example of genocide as many Russian ect are just now saying. There are also on the West simple total lack of undrestanding the evil of communism (big Russia state of workers and peasants + happienes), I see it (as many Poles) other and this is different meaning. Any communits regime do not kill any population in "verical fashion" - as did German for example with all Jews, Gypsies, no matter age, sex, ect. Communist's regime makes it according class principless, so if you have more the "x US Dollars", you have to be destroy as a public enemy, no matter Russian, Pole, Jews, German (all these nations) because you are from one of public enemy class (no right to live, to have property). So intelectual class was also Russian-Soviet public enemy and had to be exterminated because being more inteligent, more power class, less co-operative with Russian regime. Among 22.000 killed Polish citisens were: Poles, Jews, Ukrainians,Bialorussian, Gerogians or other small nations who were Poles "citisents" and belong to one enemy class - intelectulas - which did want to join Red Russian. Russian could not to turn over them and they had to be mordered as a specific "stuborn class", an "obstacle" on their the road to conquer the whole country and later whole capitalist word. As Hawk-Eye have written: They "only" wanted to eliminate those who were educated and able to think (teachers, writers, officers, politicians, doctors etc.), and understood politics, in order not to have any trouble when integrating Poland into Russia. Besides, most of them disliked communism very much, which was a crime already in Soviet eyes." This was a specific class to be mordered and this I can or other Poles are saying - genocide - this is cricial point of this case - "horisontal termination" - according class and nation rules. BTW during the Great Pruges (1937-1938) Russian have even develop special category people of "Polish's plots" . From about 700.000 official killed ussin citisents in about one year there were about 125.000 Poles orgin who had stayed in Russia and live under new regime. They were shot due to their Polish origin and as a potential spy for our country. So I can right to say about Russian they they make genocide toward Poles and second toward specific class of Poles this high educated, representatives of Polish's state system. Russian (Chines, Korean, Khmer Ruge ect) made the same genocide crime's toward own peoples. They did it in horizonal way - against classes (these who can read, write, have more as it was in Kambodia for example). Germans had made the horrible crimes in "vertical way" the genocide - all have to be mordered as a untermench (specialy Jews, Gypsies but also Poles, Ukrainian ect.). Germans were very proud of them during the whole war, many photos made by them are evident proofs of their happiens during mordering childern, women, old people - these "rats" and untermenchen had no rigths to live on the big III Reich soil. Regards, Mirek W |
Re: 65 anniversary of Katyn massacre
Poland has bad neighbours and weak friends. Katyn was a Soviet war-crime which has gone unpunished.
Both Russia (sic USSR) and Germany (sic Nazi) regarded Poles as a problem rather than a nation. Both Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany wanted to extinguish the Polish nation - Polish culture - even the langauge. Between 1939 and 1945 they did their utmost to do so. They failed. After 1945 the Soviets saw Poland only as a buffer-zone between them and NATO. Silly Soviets! President Putin is no golden boy. Poland is stronger than President Putin. One thousand years from now people will still be speaking Polish - but hardly anyone will know who President Putin was. But not all Russians wake up hating Poles - presumably the reverse also applies. I have seen some pretty gruesome images from the 1920's & 1940's conflicts. Nothing changes on this earth - that's the way it is down here. But down here is not 'omega'......... Graham |
Re: 65 anniversary of Katyn massacre
Katyn and genocide?
It was not genocide by all means, it was execution of anti-soviet representatives of capitalist classes to prevent any possible resistance on returned russian territories (which were getting back to Russia from Poland in Sept 1939 by Molotov-Ribbentrop Treaty) millions of Soviets were executed by commies for political reasons in 1917-1953. Should we treat all what happened with Soviet people in XX century as genocide? Probably, yes. Should we use the same definition for Katyn massacre? No, because those poor Poles were just a small speck of dust in the universe of war for communist future of the human race. It's impossible to dedicate them from the whole bloody picture and say that killing Polish people is something extraordinary for Soviets and might be treated as something personal against Poland and Polish people. For good commie there is no nationality, only class nature matters. All killed Poles were officers. Capitalists for soviets. That's why they were doomed. And last but not the least: Should Russians call genocide the killing of 100 thousand Soviet POWs in Poland in 1920-21? I have heard Poles don't like to talk about it. And what about 1612? Was it genocide on Russian people? Sorry, I think this anti-russian thread is stupid |
Re: 65 anniversary of Katyn massacre
Ed
>There is too much killing in the world, legal and illegal. Well, considering a major portion of deaths is caused by cars, would you scrap them all? >Murder, war, genocide, the common theme is all are dead. Wrong thinking. War does not necessarilly means killing. Genocide does not mean war. Why do you confuse clear and obvious definitions? Just because one tribe of humans kills another tribe to fit the description of genocide-- all are equally dead no matter how they died. The matter is why they died and not how they died. >And the criminals who do it, some of them, perhaps many of them, escape justice, but what are YOU going to do about it? So do you think imperfections of justice system justify just anything? >I want to see an end to it, the killing. Excellent, but tell me, why you did not protest against Auschwitz thread? Mazila >It was not genocide by all means, it was execution of anti-soviet representatives of capitalist classes to prevent any possible resistance on returned russian territories (which were getting back to Russia from Poland in Sept 1939 by Molotov-Ribbentrop Treaty) Read the definition of genocide. This was a genocide. Otherwise there were no Russian territories taken over by Red Army. >millions of Soviets were executed by commies for political reasons in 1917-1953. So you consider this a justification? >Should we treat all what happened with Soviet people in XX century as genocide? Probably, yes. Soviet Union was (is) a criminal state and as such should be trialed just as Germany was in Nurenberg. >Should we use the same definition for Katyn massacre? Yes, especially having in mind Gestapo-NKVD agreements of Zakopane meeting. >No, because those poor Poles were just a small speck of dust in the universe of war for communist future of the human race. It's impossible to dedicate them from the whole bloody picture and say that killing Polish people is something extraordinary for Soviets and might be treated as something personal against Poland and Polish people. Poor Russians are just a small speck of dust in the universe. Should we care about them at all? >For good commie there is no nationality, only class nature matters. All killed Poles were officers. Capitalists for soviets. That's why they were doomed. Most of those officers were reserve officers, ie. ordinary people who finished studies. They were doctors, engineers, teachers or lawyers. >Should Russians call genocide the killing of 100 thousand Soviet POWs in Poland in 1920-21? I have heard Poles don't like to talk about it. You heard it wrong, because Poland is quite open for such discussions. Your problem is that there was no genocide and the matter appeared just after Yeltsin finally admitted Soviet Union was responsible for Katyn massacre. Actually, Soviet/Russian propaganda claims are denied by Russians themselves, eg. Pavel Aptekar of Moscow, whose grandpa was in Polish PoW camp. In turn, what had happenned to Polish PoWs, who were taken by Soviets? Why Merian Cooper (of King Kong fame) had to escape from a Soviet camp? >And what about 1612? Was it genocide on Russian people? How about Troy? >Sorry, I think this anti-russian thread is stupid No, it is not. Current Russia continues traditions of criminal Soviet Union and this is just unacceptable in civilised standards. |
Re: 65 anniversary of Katyn massacre
You are obsessed. Get some help.
Ed |
Re: 65 anniversary of Katyn massacre
And now I will close this thread, not because of the general subject, but the direction this discussion is going.
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