359 FG dogfight with Russian fighters?
 

I read a thread about the 359 FG being involved in a dogfight with Russian Yak's or Lagg's on 03/18/45 (near Zackerick or N of Kustrin). It stated that 9 Russian fighters went down. Is this combat in the same area as JG52 was stationed. I know the book by Toliver and Constable of Erich Hartman has been probably added to by the authors but I was wondering if the incident described in the mustang chapter might have sparked this incident.

Re: 359 FG dogfight with Russian fighters?
 

No Gruppe of JG52 was based that far North to reach Küstrin. I&III were in the area of todays Czech Rep. / South Poland, and II/JG52 was in Hungary.

In this Hartmann-book is a report about an attack on VVS-bombers+escort in todays Czech Rep., which ended in a DF between USAAF & VVS-fighters. So, I don't think there is any connection.

How many AC did the US loose in this incident you describe? 9 losses on soviet side would be a lot!

Re: 359 FG dogfight with Russian fighters?
 

From what I gathered from the thread for the 23-24.06.06 the info came from the book "Mustangs and Unicorns" a history of the 359 FG and the 369FS was flying P-51's. It didn't mention US losses and didn't have a VVS IAP listed. The attack listed in "The Blond Knight of Germany" didn't say where it took place and most of it was probably made up by the authors to make a good story but some times a good fact is blown up to make a better story.

Re: 359 FG dogfight with Russian fighters?
 

Nokose, I don't think "The Blond Knight of Germany" is a well search book. Though I do not know the details about the clash you mentioned, but when the war was nearly end in Europe and the Front of Soviet and western Allies drawed closer and closer, clashed between VVS and Wester Allies airforce happened many times, the reasons was wrongly indentification, normally soviet and western allied pilots were not familiar with each other's aircrafts and the mark on aircrafts, according to the rule of thumb that time, any aircrafts you found in the air belonged to enemy until proved otherwise, quitely a few aircrafts from both sides were shot down and sadly result with loss of lives, Besides the clashed you mentioned, P-38s of USAAF 82 FG also clased with Yak-1 of VVS 866 IAP on Nov 7 1944

Re: 359 FG dogfight with Russian fighters?
 

A bit off topic, but luckily, when No.442 Squadron R.C.A.F. met up with the Russians near Berlin on April 16, 1945, no shots were exchanged, even though, one pilot from 442 did fly through the formation to have a closer look!

Stephen

Re: 359 FG dogfight with Russian fighters?
 

I wonder how many Yak's showed up on someone's score as a BF109 by mistake. As far as the book on Hartman maybe someone from Russia and the west that doesn't have a bias should get together to write his story. I've read the 82FG and the 866 IAP story before but wonder about the one with 359 FG from the VVS point now.

Re: 359 FG dogfight with Russian fighters?
 

Probably not so many, and the same for the other way around, even if such incidents happened, they were caused by "trigger-happy" pilots on both sides, but never as a result of orders, and therefore, the number of incidents were, AFAIK, limited.

Re: 359 FG dogfight with Russian fighters?
 

The "trigger happy" is probably right as becoming an "Ace" was a goal. Vlad Antipov's volume 2 "Dragons on Birds Wings" looks like it will have some more of these encounters when it comes out from the few teasor's in the description.

Re: 359 FG dogfight with Russian fighters?
 

Knowing one of the 359th FG pilots who was involved in the incident, I feel "trigger happy" is a bit of a short-sighted way of looking at it.

Please take into account the confusion caused by:
- bombs raining down from above, scattering your flight
- not knowing Soviets are in the area, having captured a base you assume to be German
- having a mix of 109s and 190s blending into a mix of very similarly looking (shape and camouflage) Yaks and Lavochkins
- lack of red stars on the wings of the Soviet planes
- insufficient airplane recognition training, which didn't focus enough (at all?) on Soviet types
- the utter chaos and confusion of WW2 air combat in general

That may begin to sketch the picture.

Of course pilots were keen to score, but mix in the above ingredients and you should wonder why not more such incidents happened!

In any case Brian Cull is currently writing on the subject of friendly fire, so a more thorough research may become available in te next few years?

Re: 359 FG dogfight with Russian fighters?
 

Of course, by use the expression "trigger happy", I didn't mean any kind of intention, nor the idea that it was linked to the score.

Simply that such incidents happened when unknown planes were instantly attacked without sufficient ID, and that was not limited to incidents with the soviets but also between british and americans (Closterman in the last version of his "Big Show" describes at least three incidents between RAF and USAAF), or in other circumstances.

Most probably, such incidents contributed to give birth to the widespread rumors that persisted long after the war that Germany used captured allied airplanes (I can remember espisodes about "german B-17s" or "german P-47s") against their initial owners, while Germany used captured airplanes only for evaluation purposes.

Re: 359 FG dogfight with Russian fighters?
 

The thing is, the aircraft had already been positively ID'd as German Fw 190s and Bf 109s. When Yaks and Lavochkins entered the scene they were logically assumed to be German as well! They didn't look like unknown planes, you see, they looked like the German ones. Same camo (grey), same shapes (109 & Yak; 190 & La-5). Germans were known to fiddle with their markings, so the lack of markings on the upper wing didn't help the Soviets' case.
Even top-ace Ray Wetmore, who is known for having had an extremely sharp eyesight, nearly opened fire on an La-5.

I heard a story once of a Mustang shooting down another Mustang, after having mistaken it for an Me 262 - thinking the latter's droptanks were jet nacelles!! :)

Blue on blue incidents happened pretty often, unfortunately. Like you said Pierre Clostermann mentioned a few. Indeed Typhoon and Tempest units were occasionally bounced. Their relatively unfamiliar planes and green-grey camo being mistaken for low-flying German JaBo's. But I guess the 18th March incident is so striking, because of the fact it happened on a large scale between two nations who would soon be locked in a long and dangerous cold war.


PS. Check out Brian Cull's post if you haven't yet... Interesting and tragic stuff...
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=2670

Re: 359 FG dogfight with Russian fighters?
 

Thanks for your answer.

Clearly, confused circumstances can lead to tragic mistakes.

P.S. : Clostermann also describes a situation in which he fired (without hitting) on a Typhoon he had mistaken as a Fw-190, showing that US pilots weren't the only ones to occasionally confuse the big Hawker fighters with LW planes...

I didn't know about this one, interestingly it was not the only time when Mustangs with drop tanks were mistaken for twin-engined planes...

When Japan's 64th Sentai encountered Mustangs for the first time (in 1943 I think), they identified them at first as friendly Ki-45 Toryus before realising the were US planes.

Re: 359 FG dogfight with Russian fighters?
 

I sent Brian Cull a copy of the complete report from the Combined Chiefs of Staff file at the National Archives, College Park, Maryland regarding the shootdown of Soviet fighters mentioned in this thread. I previously listed this file number on this web site in answer to Cull's request for information on friendly fire.

Apparently, the 359 FG tried to hide the incident from HQ 8th AF and denied any involvement. But later in the CCS file, information appears that the 359 FG pilots did indeed shoot down the Soviet aircraft.

And yes, the USAAF pilots were trigger happy and would shoot down anything that flew. Aircraft identification was not the forte of every USAAF pilot. P-38s of the 10th Recon Group were constantly being jumped and attacked by 9th AF P-47s during later stages of the war over the continent.

How could a USAAF pilot confuse a P-38 from any Luftwaffe aircraft?

Norman Malayney

Re: 359 FG dogfight with Russian fighters?
 

Well, the P-38's silhouette wasn't that far away from the Fw 189's, albeit the latter wasn't a very common sight over the Western Front...