Jagdflieger unconfirmed victories and official confirmation of claims
 

Scanning through some of records I found out that the majority of German fighter aces have lots of unconfirmed victores on the their accounts, e.g. Lipfert - 27, Johannes Wiese - 75 (fantastic!). My question is what could be the ground, exept lack of witness, for declining claim during official procedure?
Second question is that as far as I know Hartmann and Barkhorn have no unconfirmed victories (please correct if I am wrong). Does it mean that every claim they filed was confirmed by headquarters and what was the reason for that taking into consideration the fact that in some occasions (ecpecially with Hartmann) they even failed to identify the exact plane type they shot down (unsubstantiated "Lagg" are recorded)?
Third question is that how deep personal relationship could effect the claims confirmation procedure in Jagdwaffe? I mean cases with well-known "neck itching" decease. For example Hermann Graf who claimed fantastic ammount of victories during Stalingrad battle and whose 200th claim is not confirmed by Soviet losses as it is in "Graf-Grislawski" book...

TIA

Re: Jagdflieger unconfirmed victories and official confirmation of claims
 

Nikita,

Barkhorn had without witness claim, which was confirmed to him (over enemy territory, so there was no chance to find the wreck, or finding ground witnesses, which was a common procedure, if the claim was over own territory without air witness).
I guess, for some high aces, the authorities confirmed more easily victories (as I found in some documents). Another thing: I guess, some of them did not 'force' their without witness or 'probable' claims (like Lipfert), but the others did (like Hartmann).
Unfortunately, most of their detailed Abschussmeldungen went missing, so hard to say now, how were some of their victories confirmed (without witness and/or without real loss form the other side).

Csaba

Re: Jagdflieger unconfirmed victories and official confirmation of claims
 

Hi Csaba!

Thanks for info on Barkhorn. So he has victories without witness but they all were confirmed to him?

The issue I have touched upon to my mind is a very complicated one. I know how it went with confirmation on the Soviet side and therefore I can explain high rate of overclaims. But what is going on on the German side. I" ve read lots of descriptions how German pilots claimed a victory in the air and somebody confirmed it by radio report. Now and again I face situations when an ace score is closing to some of the "magic number" (100, 150, 200 etc.) he begins to shoot immensly and the majority of what he claimed can not be found in real losses. Hartmann is a vivid example.

Re: Jagdflieger unconfirmed victories and official confirmation of claims
 

Nikita,

Well, I stated, that I know one of Barkhorn's kills, which was over enemy territory without witness and it was confirmed to him. Maybe he has more similar ones, but I know exactly only one, I fond just few of his detailed Abschussmeldungen in BA-MA (will check it in details, if you need).

BTW to me, the Soviet method is more interesting, because I know less about the Soviet system.
I am sure, that the Soviet authorities know the German official loss reports (mostly via radio and the gap between the VVS fighter claims and the German losses was evident instantly) How was it possible, that high number of overclaims were confirmed so easily? And if the Soviet authorities confirmed kills just over own territory in the first part of the conflict, what about the not found German wrecks (to me, the found wrecks would be the main cause of this rule)?

Csaba

Re: Jagdflieger unconfirmed victories and official confirmation of claims
 

Csaba, the Soviet method of air combat victories confirm were theorically more strict than Luftwaffe's, to get a confirmation, you need two witness in the air and/or the confirmation from your gun cammera, even this, a confirmation would not be grant unless the wreckage of the enemy aircraft were found on the ground, so any enemy planes shot down on enemy terriotory WOULD NOT be counted as a personal victory ! But as we know, what real happened usually was much different to what should happened, for example in the first year of Russo-German war, the overclaims of VVS were usually 3:1.
On the other hand, do you really think the claimes of Luftwaffe were accurate ? at least I do not think so, at least, all of Luftwaffe claimes submitted after fall of 1944 were officailly unconfirmed victories, because the confirmation system was broken down at that time.

Re: Jagdflieger unconfirmed victories and official confirmation of claims
 

The fact that some fighter pilots (of every nation) failed to properly recognize in the heat of combat their victims' aircraft type doesn't mean anything.
The only issue is if the enemy aircraft was actually destroyed or not, and if this was properly recorded or not.

Very interesting thread, by the way...

Re: Jagdflieger unconfirmed victories and official confirmation of claims
 

Their were some LW pilots who used fighters with a gun camera to confirm there kills. Wolgang Spate still had camera footage after the war of his fights and put some in his book, "Top Secret Bird". In 1944 over Germany some of them wanted the camera planes to verify their kills. Others didn't want them because it "hindered the performace of the plane.

Re: Jagdflieger unconfirmed victories and official confirmation of claims
 

Hello Gentlements!
Confirmation procedure and real OKL award situation well described in Y-S Lorant's book "JG300" vol.1.
Seems claims of ASM grade, unconfirmed etc. became rare in 1944 and confirmation procedure extremely simplified. Also he mentioned situation when OKL awarded two or more different units for one plane claimed shot down. For example flak and fighter units should be awarded separately for common plane in first war years and in 1944 seems different fighters units took part in plane destruction could be awarded separately also.
Soviet and German confimation system in reality based only on witness accounts and overclaim generally tha same rate 3:1.

P.S. Gun camera not used for confirmation in Luftwaffe, but only for study films creation.

Regards.

Re: Jagdflieger unconfirmed victories and official confirmation of claims
 

To say that Luftwaffe on average overclaimed 3:1 during the whole war is simply not true, and its sounds as historical revisionism.
As it has been discussed here previously, a few units on a few occasion indeed overclaimed to a rather high degree, but that was the exception rather than the norm. Of course, overclaim in the Jagdwaffe did exist, but to a much lesser degree than Shikhov alleged.
In one instance when I could check both the claims and the other side's losses (over Transylvania, in the Autumn of 1944), for every Luftwaffe fighter claim there was almost always a matching Rumanian loss. And that was fairly close to the war's end, when Luftwaffe air victory confirmation wasn't that strict as previously...

Re: Jagdflieger unconfirmed victories and official confirmation of claims
 

Hello Denes.
In fact I am sure that 1:3 is usual overclaim rate and 1:2 is low level.
Actually very difficult and almost impossible to compare for example Geman claims and Soviet losses as most loss categories is "not returned" and "write-offs due to weared". Especially last one. 40% losses due to wearance? For examle in 1944 wroted-off many P-39, Spit IX and Bostons due to this reason. Seems in fact the reason is some combat and/or non combat damages when aircraft became non applicable for combat.
USAF has special damage grade when a/c could be used in OTU only or for ground studies. But VVS RRKKA not.
May be you have on hand Jagdwaffe claims (OKL award) amount in the East for 1944 ? Interesting to compare.

Best regards.

Re: Jagdflieger unconfirmed victories and official confirmation of claims
 

I should say that Luftwaffe overclaim in my opinion depended on two factors: activity of combat and personal characters of individual pilot. I know some examples when Hartmann overclaimed vastly and to the contrary I have not faced any such occasion as regards to Lipfert.
Here is the example: August 9, 1942 pilots of JG3 and I/JG53 claimed 50 enemy planes around Kalatch and Stalingrad. In fact 8 VA and 102 IAD PVO lost 19 planes. If we presume that all of them were shot down by fighters we will have overclaim ratio at 2,6. At the same time on August 11, 1942 all German fighter claims correspond with matching Soviet losses.

Re: Jagdflieger unconfirmed victories and official confirmation of claims
 

Soviet authorities knew about German losses mostly from recon reports and POW interrogation. As regards to overclaim confirmation in 1941-43 that did not have much importance, since there were huge losses and claims were getting confirmed primarily to offset losses. Besides, in the mess of first two years of fighting authorities did not pay much attention to claim verification procedure. Though, in theory Soviet confirmation rules were very strict. But they were observed only in formal way. Thus, a group which was aimed at finding wrecks of shot down planes could collect evidence of local inhabitants for one plane and confirm several as shot down. Only in 1943-44 with the appearance of guncameras situation went better somehow.

Re: Jagdflieger unconfirmed victories and official confirmation of claims
 

Nikita,

well, my opinion is the same as yours regarding the German (and Hungarian) overclaims, as I described it in my aces book.
BTW another cathegory, over Hungary there were many Hungarian-German 'collective' air victories, and these planes were confirmed individually many times in both sides (in Hungarian side with less points and with the mentioned German claims, at the Luftwaffe, as 'full own' kills). Sometimes even shared with the AA artillery as well (but confirmed separately as a full kill). It happened at night too (same plane was confirmed to German night fighters and AA artillery separately).

Dénes,

in few occasions, over Transylvania, the AA artillery claimed the same planes as the Jagdwaffe, so they are overclaimed there as well (fighters or AA artillery, or both).

Re: Jagdflieger unconfirmed victories and official confirmation of claims
 

The air combats I was referring to took part away from so-called 'sensitive centres', so there was no established flak over there. One may assume that there was light troop flak in the combat area; however, chances are slim. I believe that the Rumanian aircraft the German fighters claimed were shut down in air combat, not by flak (there are other Rumanian losses too, which do not have Luftwaffe fighter claim equivalents, those might have indeed been shot down by flak).

Re: Jagdflieger unconfirmed victories and official confirmation of claims
 

Denes, that depend on theatre, in the battle of Britian, in the aircombat over Italy and Balkan after 1943, and over Western Europe after Normandy, the overclaim rate of Luftwaffe were at least 3:1

Re: Jagdflieger unconfirmed victories and official confirmation of claims
 

Marsyao, can you support your claim with concrete numbers (incl. the sources you're relying on)?

Re: Jagdflieger unconfirmed victories and official confirmation of claims
 

Of course, John Foreman's "fighter command diary", Morton Jessen's " The Focke-Wulf Fw 190 in North Africa", Nick Beale's excellent researchs about air war over Italy, Christopher shores's "2nd tactiv air force", Francis K. Mason's "battle for Britian".
Denes, according to my reading about air war in WWII, NONE of nation's airforce had an overclaim rate less then 2:1, Luftwaffe certainly did not submit more overall accurate claims than other airforce such like USAAF or RAF, to be fair, claims submitted by other airforce were not more accurate than Luftwaffe's either.

Re: Jagdflieger unconfirmed victories and official confirmation of claims
 

Marsyao, such generalizations don't lead anywhere. Although 'everyone was the same, everyone overclaimed to the same degree' sounds very politically correct, it simply doesn't reflect historical reality. That's why I asked for concrete numbers for concrete time periods, to see if we can collectively analyse them and to realize where we can go from there.

Re: Jagdflieger unconfirmed victories and official confirmation of claims
 

then Denes, I suggest you read those books I mentioned above, all you need is there

Re: Jagdflieger unconfirmed victories and official confirmation of claims
 

Well, Luftwaffe claims over Yugoslavia during the April War in 1941 were almost 100% matching Yugoslav losses. On other hand, IV./JG 27 wildly overclaimed in late 1943.

Re: Jagdflieger unconfirmed victories and official confirmation of claims
 

Figures for April 1941:
at least 61 claim for 47 shot down, 7 severely damaged, 2 slightly damaged and an Fi 156 forced to land although undamaged. Of these 61, at least 3 claims remained unconfirmed although in each of these cases Yugoslav aircraft was actually shot down.

Re: Jagdflieger unconfirmed victories and official confirmation of claims
 

hi, Boris, one of important reason for overclaim was misjudge the damaged enemy aircrafts for those shoting down, and for different time and different theatre, the accuracy of claims could be vastly different even for the same units.
Besides, are you sure those none of those Yugoslavia aircrafts were shot down by ground fire or shot down by Italian ?

Re: Jagdflieger unconfirmed victories and official confirmation of claims
 

These are figures for actions against the Luftwaffe, aircraft claimed/lost in action against the Italians are separated from this total and not included here. As for the AA claims, just a few (but only few) of these 47 could have fallen to flak instead of fighters.

Re: Jagdflieger unconfirmed victories and official confirmation of claims
 

Denes,

you are completely right! Generalization is a very bad thing. And it seems some people are reading the "wrong books".

It is just not true Luftwaffe oveclaimed during the whole war 2:1 or even 3:1. Maybe it was so in 1944-45, but not at the beginning of the war.

I think the years 1939 and 1940 - until the end of French campaign, were rather accurate. In 1939 appr. 80-90% of German claims are confirmed by known Polish total losses. This is much better than 2:1. And we do not know some Polish losses due to lack of documents. I think the French campaign will be similar.
The Battle over Britain will be different to much causes (channel, lack of fuel, more participating aircraft on both sides and so on...).

Regards,
Marius

Re: Jagdflieger unconfirmed victories and official confirmation of claims
 

I agree with what Nikita Egorov wrote in reply 11. Of course with a strict debriefing system one could improve claim accuracy markedly as USN did, was that from 1943 onwards. Also RAF could markedly improve its claim accuracy when it finally decided to tackle the overclaiming problem. IMHO on the long run the knowledge that a confirmation system is lax would decline claim accuracy because many of good fighter pilots were very competitive and if they noticed that others got their claims accepted lightly and got medals and promotions because of that the temptation to do same was strong. Of course some would not fall to temptation because of theit integrity or because they didn't care were they 6th or 24th in the ranking list. They just wanted to do they job propertly and got they satisfaction from that and from the successes of their unit. IMHO a figter unit was in this sense an organization as any other, there were primadonnas and there were those who cared mostly the overall performance plus of course those who did their duty but not much else and so on.

Re: Jagdflieger unconfirmed victories and official confirmation of claims
 

Well, German claims (or rather veirfied victories - there is a difference) were more-less accurate only when the wrecks were counted. That is why kills in Poland, France, Yugoslavia were closer to the actual enemy losses than in the Battle of Britain or in Normandy.
Otherwise, verification of claims was only a morale boosting process and of no other great value but perhaps some assesment of training and armament.

Re: Jagdflieger unconfirmed victories and official confirmation of claims
 

The denial of own losses is propaganda too to calm down
the own pilots, soldiers, civil population...

Re: Jagdflieger unconfirmed victories and official confirmation of claims
 

I wonder which side in your opinion denied own losses?

Re: Jagdflieger unconfirmed victories and official confirmation of claims
 

I have done some research about Kursk air battle and my estimations were as follow:
1. German fighters overclaim 1:3 but if Flak is considered in all ways even higher.
2. Soviet fighters overclaim 1:8 up to 1:10.

Reasons for this quotas.
1.
-In July 1943 no more any eyewitnesses were needed in Luftwaffe. Claims were confirmed "unter Vorbehalt". (source Aders/Held JG-51)
-Flak also claimed a great a amount. But theres is to consider not only Luftwaffe Flak but also Heeres Flak which isn't counted at Luftwaffe documents. Alone one Panzerkorps at Kursk claimed 10% of all soviet air losses.
2. For the soviet side i haven't any reasons for this quotas found. Maybe LW documents are not correct, since they show quite different figures and also german POW said other figures.

Re: Jagdflieger unconfirmed victories and official confirmation of claims
 

I think, here is two main points, why VVS has higher overclaims rates as the other(beside the assumtion, that LW documents is not full)

First, the high own losses forced the regiment commander and other pilot claims highest possible LW losses, otherwise they could have problem with their higher commanders(own losses w/o own success never look well)

And the second, if we say, that VVS at that time has many young inexpierience pilot, they could not really say, if enemy plane was really shot down. The correct result evaluation of the shooting and fight(and the fights was very hard), belongs to the pilot skills, as well the start and landings.