Bf 109 identity
 

Hi Guys.
I am including a photo of this Bf 109.It was sent to me by someone who found an article in Australia.
It is of a Bf 109 werkno 110396.
The colours look more like Italy than N africa.
The uniforms of what looks like groundcrew can be N Africa or Italy.
Any gen on type according to Werkno an where??
Thanks
Stefaan Bouwer

Re: Bf 109 identity
 

Its Bf 109G-5. It certainly is not Africa and very unlikely to be Italy.

Re: Bf 109 identity
 

Do I see a pale No. 14 just beneath the yellow fuel octane triangle?

Re: Bf 109 identity
 

An Erla built a/c, between Nov 43 and June 44.

Re: Bf 109 identity
 

Why not an H from 5.F123, under the sun of french august sommer ??? in maybe Guyancourt..

REMI

Re: Bf 109 identity
 

But not impossible, given that NAG 11 had a few G-5s on strength in 1944. I know of two in the 110... series they lost but not this particular one

No doubt someone here knows when they stared putting tall tails on G-5s, which would narrow dow the dates a bit.

Re: Bf 109 identity
 

Do you know this for certain? I ask because Prien says that both G-5s and G-6s were included in the 110 200 - 110 500 production batch. Please note that I am not arguing with your statement, I am only asking.

The tall tail with what appears to be a rounded lower rear tail, was first produced with the installation of the 605AS engine, starting in Dec 43 at B&V. But, the AS used 87 octane gas, so it would appear that the sucker was modded to ASM status.

And, what unit carried small a/c numbers? NAG 11 as Nick says?

Re: Bf 109 identity
 

George, just going by what Prien has in his 109 book, WNr 110001-110576. Not saying it is a G-5 or a G-6.

Re: Bf 109 identity
 

Hi

Its Bf 109G-5. It certainly is not Africa and very unlikely to be Italy.

Don't agree with this.
No S African groundcrew members served with Aussie squadrons in Europe wearing S African uniforms.Photo caption states that the guy left seated below is a S African serving with an Aussie groundcrew.S African and Australian squadrons were mixed in ie 253 Wing at Falconare Jul 44 till Jan 45 and at cesenatico Jan 45 till july 45.
Could also have been with 239 Wing in Italy.
I am including anothe worked image on yellow 14
Stefaan

Re: Bf 109 identity
 

The "14" is imho not yellow. As reference you have the yellow fuel triangle.

Re: Bf 109 identity
 

IMHO looks like a G-5/AS or G-6/AS painted light grey and there were DB605AS engines made for the C3 (according to Valtonen) so it can be with or without MW50. These were usually seen above Reich, not in the Italy.

Re: Bf 109 identity
 

DB605AS did not require C3 when running w/o MW-50, it only required B4. The DB605ASM required C3 at first but order was relaxed later on and B4 could be used along with MW-50.

Re: Bf 109 identity
 

I finally managed to see the enlarged picture which for some reason would not open til now.
It's most likely a G-5/U2(/AS) or G-6/U2(/AS) which underwent the MW-50 modification in early 44. A DB605AM or a DB605ASM has been installed as underlined by the C3 triangle, a requirement which compatible with an early MW-50 equipped a/c.
This picture has been most likely taken between february and late summer 44.

Re: Bf 109 identity
 

Olivier,
There were several different variants of the DB 605AS engines.

The first produced DB 605AS versions were simply conversions of the DB 605A and retained 1:7,3/7,5 compression ratio and were for B4 fuel. The G-6/AS planes of the Finnish air force had these engines.

After initial conversion engines the early produced version of the DB 605AS had higher compression ratio (1:8,3/8,5) and required C3 fuel even if not setup for MW50, these engines are sometimes called as the DB 605ASC.

Later there were many other versions called ASB, ASM etc. some required C3 and/or MW50, some B4, some could use both fuels. But these probably came too late for G-5 or G-6 as seen in the picture.

Sources are Valtonen's article in the SIHL and various DB documentation.

Regarding the plane in the picture; it seem to be a G-5 or G-6 (according to Wnr), it's also probably a AS (tall tail, light grey camouflage) and the C3 triangle means that it had a DB 605AS with CR 1:8,3/8,5 and/or MW50. Time frame for such variant might be something like summer 1944.

Re: Bf 109 identity
 

Hi Guys.
Thanks for all the info.
In summery it then looks like a G-5 or G-6,AS,Most likely in Italy late summer 1944 from NAG 11 the most likely Unit.
Stefaan

Re: Bf 109 identity
 

It's definite an G - 5 (according W.Nr.), produced in March 1944 and delivered in all probability in the beginning of April 1944. Maybe the a/c was later "rebuilt" to an G-5/AS like some other in this range.

Best wishes
Rasmussen

Re: Bf 109 identity
 

Hello Rasmussen,

A bit a part of the subject, maybe not, What hv you to tell about G-5 rebuilt as H models

remi

Re: Bf 109 identity
 

Harri,

Indeed the ASC required C3 but i was just tackling the AS(M) issue not the ASB/ASC series. Those were introduced at about the same time as the DB605DB/DC were. They were upgraded ASMs put to DB/DC standard, and yes the ASC indeed required C3 but those were not cleared for use until early 45 as underlined by T-AMT docs, a date which is not too compatible with the picture and the Werknummer.

There were 350 (IIRC) conversion kits issued early 44 for conversion of 109G/U2s using GM-1 to MW-50 use. The a/c retained the old insulated GM-1 tank, had several parts replaced and the DB605AM or ASM fitted. As described in the early DB605ASM docs, this engine required C3 when initialy introduced. Order was later relaxed, with B4 being tolerated provided the boost was not used without MW-50. This relaxation occured late summer 44.
Information solely based on DB, Mtt and RLM docs.

Cheers,
olivier

Re: Bf 109 identity
 

Olivier,
I'm just saying that early DB 605AS engines with 1:8,3/8,5 compression ratio required initially C3 fuel regardless if there was MW50 (DB 605ASM) or not (designation unknown to me, probably still DB 605AS). That is why I wrote "these engines are sometimes called as the DB 605ASC" despite that designation came later. There are pictures of such planes and the point is that C3 triangle does not mean that there was MW50 in the plane.

Generally it's one thing what the specifications say and what was planned to produce but it's whole another thing what really came out of production lines or repairing centres.

Re: Bf 109 identity
 

Do you have an idea when those early AS(C) engines with high CR were delivered ? Or reference to a document ?
Cause every DB605AS stuff i have seen so far show no need for C3 (even in the various manuals and datasheets). The only case were i have seen C3 mentionned is with the early ASM engine and that's with the low CR.

Re: Bf 109 identity
 

Olivier,
I don't know any dates. According to Valtonen (he refers some sort of LW memo) it was planned to switch to higher CR after a small serie of lower CR engines but in reality there certainly was quite large number of low CR engines (the Finnish air force AS planes with lower CR engines were delivered summer 1944). Most probably there were several versions of AS engines (high and low CR etc.) in production same time depending on manufacturer.

Generally it's difficult find exact documentation on these because there is quite a lot confusing documentation. So in practice pictorial evidence seem to give most reliable view.

Re: Bf 109 identity
 

Ok that's what i though. Indeed plans were made to increase the CR early on but this did not come to fruition until late 1944 and the engine so modified suffered from reliability problems due to C3 fuel quality. ASC/DC clearance did not come until february 45.

Re: Bf 109 identity
 

Olivier,
I checked couple microfilms to find out which engines were actually produced. The designations for the DB 605AM and ASM used for the G-14 (and apparently for the G-6 too) appear to be according to specification :

9-605-2213 for the AM
9-605-2223 for the ASM

Then I have practically unreadable power curve sheet which (might) give following designations:

9-605-2218 for the AM
9-605-2230 for the ASM

Do you know the designation(s) for the DB605AS? (there probably is several versions as the original plan was to build only 200 with lower CR according to Valtonen).

Of above listed engines at least the 2213 should be with higher compression ratio, but I'll try to find more documents on this.