Marseille’s ‘Yellow 14’ with 1.(J)/ LG 2 in Poland in 1939?
 

This E-Bay link claims to include a depiction of Marseille’s ‘Yellow 14’ with 1.(J)/ LG 2 in Poland in 1939 during strafing practice. Any thoughts?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=250063316467


Thanxs,

Rob Romero

Re: Marseille’s ‘Yellow 14’ with 1.(J)/ LG 2 in Poland in 1939?
 

Well, I cannot see any stills in the e-bay post that show a Marseille machine. I'm not sure what the seller is claiming.

If this was shot in 1939 as it states, Marseille did not join the unit until August 1940. His first known machine was white 14, not yellow. His first known "yellow 14" machine was in North Africa in 1941.

Re: Marseille’s ‘Yellow 14’ with 1.(J)/ LG 2 in Poland in 1939?
 

First all my best wishes for 2007...

John, any chance to see your forthcoming Marseille book soon?

Re: Marseille’s ‘Yellow 14’ with 1.(J)/ LG 2 in Poland in 1939?
 

Hello,

My infos about details of early Jochen’s career:
Marseille joined his first unit – 1.(J)/LG 2 – on 10 August 1940.
He was transferred to 4./JG 52 on 24 December 1940. Both these units were using white color of tactical numbers.
Like John has written – his first ‘yellow 14s’ were used in 1941, when Marseille was moved to 3./JG 27 on 21 February.

I wonder if the famous photo, made in Graz on 6 April 1941, with smiled Jochen looking on a damage after a combat mission over Nisz airfield, shows a ‘yellow 14’ also?
Does anybody know it? Is the W.Nr. of this Bf 109 known?

Regards

Nef

Re: Marseille’s ‘Yellow 14’ with 1.(J)/ LG 2 in Poland in 1939?
 

Hi,

there is a photo in Wuebbe`s book about Marseille [page 136], which allegedly shows a e/l due to engine problems on the 23.04.1941 Bf109E-7 WNr.1259 piloted by Marseille. The photo is little blurry but the plane was probably marked with yellow 7.
It seems very probably that I(J)/LG2 used in Poland a yellow "14" since we know that e.g. high numbered planes were used in the 1st and 2nd flight (white 12,13,15; red or black 12,13,14,15).

Regards

Robert

Re: Marseille’s ‘Yellow 14’ with 1.(J)/ LG 2 in Poland in 1939?
 

Robert, thank You for information.
I don’t know Wuebbe’s book and think I’ve never seen this photo before.
Would You be so kind and tell me how to get this photo (or any others of Marseille’s early career, specially from BoB or time when he was in the ranks of Fhr./Ofhr.).
Unfortunatelly I’m moving abroad today and I’ll be unable to watch the forum for few days.

With many thanks in advance

Nef

Re: Marseille’s ‘Yellow 14’ with 1.(J)/ LG 2 in Poland in 1939?
 

Hi,

I`m in Warsaw and where would you be now?

Robert

Re: Marseille’s ‘Yellow 14’ with 1.(J)/ LG 2 in Poland in 1939?
 

Thank you Philippe, and Best Wishes to you.

Yes, hopefully, this year!

Re: Marseille’s ‘Yellow 14’ with 1.(J)/ LG 2 in Poland in 1939?
 

Robert,

I just came back from Paris after performing a piano recital and now have free time for forum.
I’m impatiently waiting for the response :)

Regards

Nef

Re: Marseille’s ‘Yellow 14’ with 1.(J)/ LG 2 in Poland in 1939?
 

Hi Nef,


check your pm-box.

Robert

Marseille
 

Hello guys

Many thanks for the interesting information in this thread. However, I have the following information about the incident on 23 April 1941: Oberfähnrich Marseille claimed his first victory over Africa on 23 April but was shot down by Free French ace Sous Lieutenant James Denis (9 victories) of 73 Sqn, RAF. He force-landed his Bf 109 E-7 (W.Nr. 5160) in no-man's land and later returned to German lines. I do have that he had to force-land due to engine trouble during I./JG 27's transit to North Africa on 18 April 1941. Could the aircraft involved have been Bf 109 E-7 "Yellow 7" (W.Nr. 1259) or perhaps my information about 23 April is inaccurate? I also have that was again hit in aerial combat on both 14 and 16 June, force-landing the first time and managing to return to base the second time but no information as to the aircraft involved. I hope this can add something to this thread.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Marseille’s ‘Yellow 14’ with 1.(J)/ LG 2 in Poland in 1939?
 

Hello,

You have added a lot, Leo.

My infos are that on 18 April only 1./JG 27 commanded by Oblt. Redlich transferred to Africa. Date of relocation Homuth’s 3./JG 27 is not 18, but 20 (or 21) April. On that day Marseille, following engine problems, crashed his 109 (W.Nr. unknown) near Cahela, Great Syrta. The plane was lost and he had to walk thru the desert. There’s a funny story, that he asked a panzer offizier for a lift to Gazala and after all he asked Jochen for no less then 50 victories as a payment for a ride.
The whole Gruppe landed in Gazala till 22nd.

First Marseille’s victory over Africa from 23 April, a Hurricane, was claimed on 12.50 hours.
Some sources states that Marseille was shot down in the same fight, others says that it happened in the evening, during the third sortie of the day.
Usually it is said that he flew Bf 109 E-7 W.Nr. 5160 – that’s why Roberts’s infos are so interesting for me (I’ve never heard about W.Nr. 1259 before). Anyway, Johen was very lucky because his plane got over 30 hits into cockpit and engine – after emergency landing in Gazala it was scrapped.

No signs about lost fights on 14 and 16 June. My infos are that his Bf 109 E-7 W.Nr. 1562 was hit on 21 May (again into engine), glided into own lines and crashlanded. This event teached Johen a lot, he has changed his style of flying (growed up) :) and never lost fight in the future.

Little correction of my post from 8 January: on 6 April 3./JG 27 attacked Ljubljana (not Nisz) airfield and after hits from a/a fire Marseille laded in Graz without any problems.
Over Nisz a/a fire shoot down 109 of Hpt. Ihlefeld, gruppenkommandeur I(J)/LG 2, who was taken PoW for few days.

Searching in my books I’ve read today, that Marseille was transferred from 1(J)./LG 2 to 4./JG 52 in October 1940. I knew about 24 December. How was it really?

Regards

Nef

Marseille
 

Hello Nef

I wish to thank you for your kind reply to my post. You certainly added much new information to what I had on this ace! Many thanks in particular for the information that 3./JG 27 transferred to North Africa on 20 (21) April and not 18 April. The information that he was involved in an incident on 21 May was new to me and much appreciated as well as the fact that your sources make no mention of the incidents on 14 and 16 June. The sources I have, mainly Obermaier upon which much is based, state that Marseille was transferred to 4./JG 52 on 24 December 1940 to be quickly dismissed by a certain Johannes Steinhoff for disciplinary problems and posted to 3./JG 27 on 21 February 1941. However, I would not be surprised that some sources mention that he was posted to 4./JG 52 in October 1940. While writing my version of his thumbnail biography I found much conflicting information that had me checking and rechecking my sources so hopefully this minor mystery can be cleared up as well. Just a thought: could that Bf 109 E-7 (W.Nr. 1259), possibly "Yellow 7", have been the fighter crash-landed on 20 or 21 April and whose werknummer is unknown if indeed the fighter he was shot down on 23 April was Bf 109 E-7 (W.Nr. 5160)? This is speculation of course but nevertheless rather interesting. I too had never read of this Bf 109 E-7 (W.Nr. 1259) as well and thus my interest in this thread.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Marseille’s ‘Yellow 14’ with 1.(J)/ LG 2 in Poland in 1939?
 

Hi, guys.

The loss records are as follows:

1. Aircraft lost on April 20th:

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=113086

2. Aircraft lost on April 23rd:

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=113087

WIll look up the others later tonight, have to restart a server now.

Best regards,
Andreas B

Re: Marseille’s ‘Yellow 14’ with 1.(J)/ LG 2 in Poland in 1939?
 

Hi.

Cannot find any 14. or 16. june, but the I. Gruppe lost at least 4 aircraft on the 15th.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Marseille’s ‘Yellow 14’ with 1.(J)/ LG 2 in Poland in 1939?
 

Hello,

What an interesting topic.
Here are my records regarding Marseille's Emils:

Bf109 E-1 WNr.3579 02.09.40 1.(J)/LG2 Fhr. Hans-Joachim Marseille, unbekannte Ursache - Bruchlandung, nahe Fl.Pl. Calais-Marck - 50% ws.14+ (E-4)
Bf109 E-4 WNr.5797 11.09.40 1.(J)/LG2 Fhr. Hans-Joachim Marseille, Luftkampf mit Hurricane SÖ London - Notlandung, bei Wissant - 75% (E-7)
Bf109 E-3 WNr.5094 23.09.40 1.(J)/LG2 Fhr. Hans-Joachim Marseille, Luftkampf vor Dover - Absturz, in die See - 100% (E-7)
Bf109 E-3 WNr.1259 20.04.41 3./JG27 Obfhr. Hans-Joachim Marseille, Motorschaden - Notlandung, bei Cahela - 80% (E-7)
Bf109 E-3 WNr.5160 23.04.41 3./JG27 Obfhr. Hans-Joachim Marseille (verl.), Luftkampf mit Hurricane - Bauchlandung, Raum Tobruk - 100% (E-7)
Bf109 E-3 WNr.1567 21.05.41 3./JG27 Obfhr. Hans-Joachim Marseille, Luftkampf mit Jäger im Raum Tobruk - Bruchlandung, hinter den eigenen Linien - 40% (E-7)

As you can see I have the WNr.1567 instead 1562. Did I make a typing error? I have no records for the WNr.1562.

regards,
Tomislav

Re: Marseille’s ‘Yellow 14’ with 1.(J)/ LG 2 in Poland in 1939?
 

Hi.

Tomislav, you are correct that the WNr in the loss list is recorded as 1567:

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=113141

Regards,
Andreas B

Marseille
 

Hello guys

Many thanks to all for the very nice information in this thread. It has certainly enabled me to have a much more accurate understanding of Marseille's career. I was able to correct the transit date of 3./JG 27, the information concerning him being shot down on 14 and 16 June, add the incident of 21 May as well as the werknummer and possibly tactical code of his fighter lost during the transit. Many thanks to all for your participation!

Horrido!

Leo

Re: Marseille’s ‘Yellow 14’ with 1.(J)/ LG 2 in Poland in 1939?
 

Andreas, Tomislav – Your posts are just wonderful. I look for details concerning Marseille for over ten years but never got so much valuable informations in such short time !

My sources are inaccurate and often contradictory (besides I’ve never read any biography), that’s why werknummer for 21 May was wrong. I had also slightly differing details about 11 and 23 Sept 1940 – all because of the same reason.

As we are at the early period of Masreille’s career, I’ve got some other questions. The first matter are the dates of 7 victories from BoB (specially vic. nr 1). Usually I met:

1. 24.08.40 -- Spitfire
2. 02.09.40 -- Spitfire
3. 11.09.40 -- Spitfire 17:05
4. 15.09.40 -- Hurricane
5. 18.09.40 -- Spitfire 10:40
6. 27.09.40 -- Hurricane
7. 28.09.40 -- Spitfire

The most popular info is that he got his 1st on 24 August, but once I saw 20 August. Can anybody confirm that 20 August is a mystake? Problem is, that on Tony Wood’s list (BoB) I couldn’t find Marseille’s name at all!

I also search for dates of awards EK I and II kl. Unfortunatelly until now I’ve found only, that he was awarded II kl. on the beginning and I kl. at the end of September 1940. Are there more exactly infos?

The last thing – does anybody know, how much combat missions Marseille flew during Battle of Britain? This could be very interesting.

With many thanks for current help

Nef

Marseille
 

Hi guys

I just was wondering if any of you had come across this web site featuring what is said to have been Marseille's Bf 109 E-4 "White 14" (W.Nr. 3579). If true it is rather interesting. www.ontario-warbirds.ca/Russell%20BF109E4.htm

Horrido!

Leo