Who flew this Bf 109F from III./JG 77?
 

Can anyone tell us who flew this Bf 109F, Red (?) 2, from III./JG 77? Notice the three victory bars on the rudder top.
The photo was taken in mid-1941 in Rumania. A precise date of this spectacular accident would also be appreciated.

Re: Who flew this Bf 109F from III./JG 77?
 

Regarding Prien/Stemmer/Rodeike/Bock, "Die Jagdfliegerverbände ..., volume 6/ II, p.352, this "black 2" from 8./ JG 77 was flown from Obfw. Friedrich Blaurock (7./ JG 77) but place and date are unknown for him. About the right pilot he was unsure too.

Best wishes
Rasmussen

Re: Who flew this Bf 109F from III./JG 77?
 

Thanks, Rasmussen, for the details. I do have the quoted book, but it's still packed in a carton box...

Is the aircraft's W.Nr. and sub-type given?

Re: Who flew this Bf 109F from III./JG 77?
 

The W.Nr. wasn't mentioned but the sub-type: F - 4.

Best wishes
Rasmussen

Re: Who flew this Bf 109F from III./JG 77?
 

From another source, also given as being Johannes Pilcher's aircraft after rough landing through a edge... maybe red 2 of 8 staffel / JG 77.

Re: Who flew this Bf 109F from III./JG 77?
 

Did any of the two mentioned pilots have 3 'kills' at that time?
Again, I don't have my references handy.

Re: Who flew this Bf 109F from III./JG 77?
 

I made an effort to try and figure this out several years ago - I think my conclusion was either Pichler or one other guy who's name escapes me now. BTW, it's 'black 2'.

Re: Who flew this Bf 109F from III./JG 77?
 

Johann Pichler sunked 2 british speedboats as a fighter-bomber
during the Balkan and Cretan compaigns. His first 3 claims were

1 - 16.5.1941 - Hurricane
2 - 10.7.1941 - I-16
3 - 10.7.1941 - I-16

On the tail were the symbols of the 2 boats so I think this Bf 109 is not
the regular a/c of Pichler!

Re: Who flew this Bf 109F from III./JG 77?
 

I believe we are working in a wrong way, with Blaurock or Pichler.
Both of these pilots were members of 7th staffel_III JG77.
Complying with the german rules of fighters markings, the tactical numbers of 7th staffel had to be painted in white color, as for instance, on Wolf Dieter Huy Me.109-F.
http://members.aol.com/kaczmarek190/huy.html
In the present case, the tactical number is either red or black (no matter which colour, in fact), denoting an aircraft of the 8th staffel.
Indeed, who was flying with this red or black 2?

Re: Who flew this Bf 109F from III./JG 77?
 

it's Pichler's in all probability ...there's no positive ID on this one though...
another view appears in the original article but wasn't used in our bio..

http://members.aol.com/kaczmarek190/pichler.html

Re: Who flew this Bf 109F from III./JG 77?
 

Please tell us your sources.
In your link we find "Bf 109 F-4 W.Nr 8358 (possibly 'Black 2')".
I hope that's not all! I don't have my books in the office now.
Pichler was in 7./JG 77, our a/c is from 8./JG 77.
Pichler painted the symbols of 2 sunk boats at his tail. Here we only
have 3 victory bars. I think this 109 was only slight damaged so I guess
we can't find a concrete loss record and no pilot. We only can look for
pilots of 8./JG 77 with 3 claims in the middle of 1941.

Re: Who flew this Bf 109F from III./JG 77?
 

That's why I'm doubtful, Hohentwiel! :)
To my advice, Pichler and Blaurock are "out"..., but who was "in" this peculiar craft of the 8/JG 77? :confused:
I wonder...
Hope some replies will help us!

Re: Who flew this Bf 109F from III./JG 77?
 

Here are some pilots of 8./JG 77 who had 3 claims
during Balkan and early Russia compaigns:

Fw. Reinhold Schmetzer - 19.04.41 (3.+4. in one day)
Fw. Hubert Ebeling - 19.04.41 (3.)
Fw. Herbert Kaiser - 16.05.41 (3.)
Oblt. Kurt Ubben - 22.06.41 (3.) - improbable

Lt. Wolfgang Ernst - 04.07.41 (3.)
Fw. Heinrich Hackler - 08.07.41 (3.)
Uffz. Paul Budenz - 31.07.41 (3.)
Uffz. Fritz Kircher - 12.08.41 (3.)

But we have some more pilots with 2 claims, maybe a third claim
was unconfirmed later! Any more information is welcome!

Re: Who flew this Bf 109F from III./JG 77?
 

Hello Hohentwiel and Parabellum,

I think Mr. Prien knows the difference between the 7. and 8.Staffel and his request was to say who flew the a/c during the accident and not who was the "owner" of the a/c. So he said Obfw. Blaurock (maybe) but he wasn't sure.

Best wishes
Rasmussen

Re: Who flew this Bf 109F from III./JG 77?
 

Right, but we want to know both pilots :)

Re: Who flew this Bf 109F from III./JG 77?
 

Hope you'll understand that I only want to say that carefulness is mother of security, in such an attempt to identify a pilot, so many years after.
It seems that, even now, nothing can be ascertained regarding to the identity of the temporary and/or the usual pilot of this rough-landed Me109-F from 8/JG77.
In which circumstance would it have been flown with a member of 7/JG77 at the steering-stick?
For me, it's a "big questionmark"! :)
Cheers,

Re: Who flew this Bf 109F from III./JG 77?
 

Hi Boys,

In Bernd Beards' book "Aircraft of the Luftwaffe Fighter Aces II" Has a picture of this same a/c but, in a different angle indicating as Johannes Pilcher's aircraft (Pichler?) of the III. / JG 77. (Pag 119)
Hugs,

E. Brettas
www.avesdobrasil.com.br
Bird of Brazil

Re: Who flew this Bf 109F from III./JG 77?
 

Hi, guys.

There are about 35 losses for the III./J.G.77 in the relevant categories from the start of Barbarossa to end of 1941.

In my opinion, the best way to go is to list these, and then take away the ones that are improbable, and get a shortlist. In my opinion, the aircraft noted as damaged (below 50%), and with the loss reasons 'Bei Landung ausgebrochen', 'Überschlag bei Landung' or the relevant 'Beim Start' reasons are the most probable ones. Will post a list of the losses of the unit that are most probable during the weekend.

I agree with the previous comments with regards to Staffel belongings, and to try to assign this aircraft to a pilot from another Staffel with the relevant number of kills is nonsense.

If this aircraft was piloted by Pilcher or Blaurock when it was damaged, it would still be the ordinary aircraft of a 8. Staffel pilot that had three claims at the time. The only real proof one can ever have is the entry from the pilot log book, (or some other refrence from the time), linking this Bf 109F with Black 2 code to a named pilot. Until then my bet is on a 8. Staffel pilot.

Regards

Re: Who flew this Bf 109F from III./JG 77?
 

I plainly agree with you, Andreas! :)
Thank you for spending some research time at our benefit.

Regards,

Re: Who flew this Bf 109F from III./JG 77?
 

Hi.

Have given this a bit of thought. In my opinion there are two possibilities, namely that the aircraft came from the 8. Staffel or from the Stab III.

In that case, the following losses would be the ones to choose amongst:

Stab III.

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=112634

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=112635

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=112868

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=112870



8. Staffel

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=112655

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=112855

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=112859

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=112869

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=112876

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=104597


In my opinion, the low damage 8. Staffel aircraft are the most likely ones, and thus it seems that WNr 7119, 8414 and 7083 are the most likely candidates, perhaps with 7083 being the best bet.

With regards to 8358, this was a 7. Staffel aircraft, and the loss record looks like this:

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=112783

Blaurock was mentioned, and so does this loss record:

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=112760

Ok, enough for tonight, hope this is of some use for you guys.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Who flew this Bf 109F from III./JG 77?
 

Wk Nr 7083? Techn.Mängel? (technical defaults).
May be, may be...
Some hedges on Jazi airfield?...
Many thanks, Andreas, for the "in research" spent time! :)

Re: Who flew this Bf 109F from III./JG 77?
 

That's actually Jassy (Iaşi) airfield, located in Eastern Moldavia (Rumania).