Luftwaffe reports on downed Lavochkins
 

Hi Folks,

I am wondering if the Luftwaffe made any difference between the older LaG-5 ('LaGG-5') and the later La-5F, La-5FN (with bubble cockpit) fighters in their victory claims during 1944-45? In 1945, for instance, most of the Lavochkin units used newer La-5FN, La-7 fighters, but the German victory reports still very often talk about the old LaG-5 planes... Any opinion?

Cheers,

Gabor

Re: Luftwaffe reports on downed Lavochkins
 

IMHO, nobody was really able during a DF to distinguish between these subtypes. Afaik, there were even a lot of La5FN-airframes equipped with ASh82F-engine in late 43 and 44, because of production problems wit hthe FN.

The only possibility to find out what type it actually is/was, would have been to check the remains of a crash on the ground.

IMHO, the difference La-5 / LaGG-5 is just different naming. There are even many claims for "LaGG" w/o a number ;). Similar can be found for IL-2. In 44, virtually all IL-2's had a reargunner = Heckschütze. Nevertheless, only some claims are "IL-2 m.H." = mit Heckschütze = with rear gunner, although definitely >90% must have had one.

Re: Luftwaffe reports on downed Lavochkins
 

Hello,

but in experience report, written by JG6 in spring 1945, the authors claims, that the pilots in La-5 figthers perform poor in comparement with pilots La-7 figther, not agressive etc. I would ask, how average german pilot was able to differ both type and this during the fight ??? And the JG6 have before 1945 no engagement with soviet figther, there pilots could know only theoretical about different soviet types...

Even more, many soviet figther regiments at that time have a mix of La-5F/5FN/-7 plane and they could fly in mixed formation.

Best regards

Re: Luftwaffe reports on downed Lavochkins
 

Hi, Igor.

Well, I do not know where you get your information from, but even if parts of the JG 6 had not been in action on the eastern front from their formation, pilots in the unit had definitely had experience from the eastern front.

Some of them enough to fill their scorecard back and front...

Also, which 'average german pilot' filed this report? Barkhorn? In my opinion he would by then have more than theoretical experience with soviet aircraft and opposing soviet pilots in aerial combat.

And maybe german pilots even discussed the situation, and the experiences they made once they got to the eastern front and tried to use this to better their otherwise by then hopeless situation?

I agree that there would be difficulties in discerning La-5's and La-7's by looks only, but there is a small difference in performance isn't there? And this would maybe be the reason for guessing or making a valid assumption that you opposed one or the other aircraft type?

Best regards,
Andreas B

Re: Luftwaffe reports on downed Lavochkins
 

Andreas
Performance's envelope overlapping for both types makes such distinguishment impossible. Lavochkins required a lot of manual adjusting that caused the less experienced pilot to achiewe worser performance. That said I believe it is virtually impossible for a pilot to distinguish both aircraft, especially as the main difference between La-5FN and La-7 was in internal structure.

Re: Luftwaffe reports on downed Lavochkins
 

Ok, I stand corrected.

Best regards,
Andreas B

Re: Luftwaffe reports on downed Lavochkins
 

Hello Andreas,

from the Holm homepage we can see that JG6 did't partipiate in air war in the east until january 1945. And the units, from which the JG6 was established (I,II/ZG26, I/JG5) didn't have also "eastern history".
For me the "average german pilot" from west front(or from German Air Home Defence) at that time is somebody who survive some fligths in the west and has a very little experience.
About Barkhorn. I don't know, if even he could differ both types. He was wounded on 31. May 44 and return back in october 1944 and has relatively few kills at that time. The La-7 was only introduced in that time in few number, therefore I don't belive, he could see one of them.
IIRC, Barkhorn didn't fly as commodore of JG6 in 1945, at least he has not kills...
What the performance of LA-7 concern, the La-7 was faster 50 km/h then La-5FN and could faster climb
Best regards,
Igor

Re: Luftwaffe reports on downed Lavochkins
 

Surely there was a remarkable difference in performance between La5F and La7. The performance of La5FN and La7 is another thing, prototypes always have peak performances while mass production A/C might lagg behind.

I think (!), that the differentiation kalender mentions (from Barkhorn's units report) was based mainly on stuff like "Red nose" of Guards units etc. Definitely it was not possible for a fighter pilot to differentiate between La5FN and F during a normal fight. La7 is a bit easier because of cooler-inlet-position.

OT: Franek, just as a reminder: Lavochkins are not the only A/C which had problems like this. Think about Me109F's breaking apart, DB605's killing guys like Marseille etc. ENd of OT ;).

Re: Luftwaffe reports on downed Lavochkins
 

Franek, you are way off in your suggestions that difference in performance between the La-5FN and La-7 was masked by inadequate pilot capabilities.

The difference between sea level speed is about 30 km/t (approx. 574 vs 615 km/h), at altitude some 40 km/h (635 vs 677). Climb is also very much better, 1215 m/min for the -5FN vs 1310 m/min for the -7. This is something you would notice and there is no way the La-7 would be delivered to novice pilots who did not know how to handle it to get the best out of their new aircraft.

That is performance, there are also considerable differences in external appearance. Most importantly the oil cooler was moved from a ventral nose position to a ventral mid-fuselage position and the the engine cowling was virtually circular without the dorsal scoop of the La-5F/FN. Not always easy to distinguish in combat of course, but it is certainly not corect to say that "the main difference between La-5FN and La-7 was in internal structure". As a matter of fact, there are virtually no internal differences between the two, only external.

I suspect your derogatory characteristics of this remarkable Soviet fighter is yet another attack on Soviet hardware, and of course, not based on facts.

Regards,

Kjetil

Re: Luftwaffe reports on downed Lavochkins
 

Jörg, this "red nose" story is another nonsence from JG6 report.
First, we can not really established the discrepancy of quality of soviet figther in dependency to which unit they belong, guard or not. E.g. in 2nd Air Army most units was guard, but in 16th air army they wasn't.

Second, not all guard unit has the "red nose" and vice versa, not all "red nose" was guard. In the same regiment the 1st squadron could painted the nose in red, the 2nd squadron in yellow and the 3rd in blue...

Regards

Re: Luftwaffe reports on downed Lavochkins
 

Just my two cents...... in the ranks of JG 6, especially with I./JG 6, there were still a lot of pilots with experience on the Eastern front. Within I./JG 6 several pilots had flown numerous missions with I./ZG 1 in Russia. I./ZG 1 became later I./ZG 26 and then I./JG 6. Also in II. and III. Gruppe were several pilots who had seen combat on the eastern front in other units before.

cheers,

John.

Ps. I am not familiar with difference between La-5 and La-7, so I can not comment on the validity of the report itself.

Re: Luftwaffe reports on downed Lavochkins
 

Joerg
There is a difference between teething problems and design misconceptions, etc.

Kjetil
What is your point? Are you trying to prove that Soviet aircraft were on par with Western ones? Stalinist propagandists tried to prove that as well.
Fact is I have some pieces of Soviet hardware at home and it is not a problem for me to compare them to Western stuff. Also, there is plenty of Soviet hardware in Poland, so I am used to it in general. The difference is huge.
In regard of Lavochkins, your claim that there was no structural difference between La-5FN and La-7 is just ridiculous and proves you have no slightest idea about those aircraft. Sorry.
That said, your comment about importance of pilots' capabilities is not valid as well. While Western aircraft were automatised to a high degree (radiators, propeller/pitch settings, fuel mixture, gyro gunsight), thus allowing pilot to concentrate on combat, Soviet aircraft still required a lot of manual adjusting. Eg. young pilots often set their radiators fully open just to avoid overheating, thus substantially reducing performance. So simple. I do not even mention quality and wear problems, that were very important issues.

Re: Luftwaffe reports on downed Lavochkins
 

Franek, you do make some of the most ill-informed, yet funny, posts on this forum!

I'm not trying to prove anything really, since my points should be clear to most by now. Of course certain late-war Soviet aircraft were on par with Western ones! It has nothing to do with "Stalinist propaganda", something you would know if you weren't blinded by your Polish nationalist propaganda.

I don't get your reference to your Soviet hardware at home, are you talking about household appliances or are you saying that you have a real La-7 at home???? Otherwise I cannot see the relevance of your statement. Or are you really saying that a WWII La-7 is bad because you have a kitchen blender that dosn't quite work for you?

You are a master of turning things around (which you need to be since your arguments are usually so inherently bad og faulty).

Your original statement "the main difference between La-5FN and La-7 was in internal structure" is wrong. The main difference is external, as I said. Find some good drawings, liker in Erik Pilawskii's book on VVS fighter colours, and see for yourself.

I didn't say that there was no structural difference between them (so here you are actually lying unless you retract that statement), I said that the majority of this was external.

Kjetil (slightly amused)

Re: Luftwaffe reports on downed Lavochkins
 

Kjetil
As I wrote earlier, I cannot understand what you are trying to prove. The main difference between La-5FN and La-7 was a metal spar and this was the reason of the new designation. Otherwise it would have been called like La-5FNb or something like that.
Concerning Soviet hardware, I have some aircraft parts of various origin in my collection. Unfortunatelly it turned impossible for me to acquire a complete seat for La, but I am crossing fingers I will get it one day. So, I know what I am talking about, when I say that Soviet hardware was inferior. Frankly, it often looks so awful, the one does not want to touch it!
Thus said, such Soviet fighters like Spitfire or Kingcobra certainly were on par with Western aircraft, but Soviet designs were not. Soviet propaganda tried to prove otherwise and found some followers in kind of Pilawski, but the facts are undeniable. Both Kingcobras and Spitfires were in Soviet service in the early 1950s, long time after Soviet designs were phased out. Kingcobra, while tested against ultimate Yak-9P turned superior, still being much older design. It was mentioned on very this forum some time ago, but apparently you are not interested in facts, if you repeat what you wrote previously.

Re: Luftwaffe reports on downed Lavochkins
 

Now we are moving into the realm of Polish contrafactual history and I dare not go there!

And yet you keep it in your house! Better hire an interior decorator!

LOL!

A better turner, hence a better fighter! Ahh, now I see where you are going with this. The ultimate fighter of WWII was the PZL 7/11. Of course!

I wonder if other Polish contributers on this board agree with Franek's opinions of Soviet aircraft?

Kjetil

Re: Luftwaffe reports on downed Lavochkins
 

Hi John,

IIRC you write the book about JG6 ? Could I ask you, when it appears ?

My assumption was, that after more then one year figthing in the west, not many pilots survive from I./ZG1... But I suppose you are better inform as me :)

Best regards

Re: Luftwaffe reports on downed Lavochkins
 

Kjetil and Franek:

Let’s keep it nice and on subject which is Luftwaffe reports on LaGGs. If you keep up the personal attacks, I’ll lock the thread.

Re: Luftwaffe reports on downed Lavochkins
 

John, certainly understand your concern and the discussion with Franek regarding the merits of Soviet aircraft is over from my side.

I do have something else however, that may add to the original disucssion.

According to Soviets pilots Luftwaffe fighter often stayed at high altitude in the last months of the war, refusing to engage Soviet fighters low down in dogfights, often to the frustration of the latter (since the high-altitude perfomance of their Lavochkin wa snot as good as the Germans, reportedly). And I suspect that if they did engage it was the usual hit-and-run tactic
leaving little time to gain an impression of the opponent's aircraft. This could be one reason why the reports often refer only to "generic" La-5s.

Kjetil

Re: Luftwaffe reports on downed Lavochkins
 

Hi all,

I suppose, we have hier one very simple explanation. All pilots from all air forces could not really correct identify there opponents. Why we discuss about La's ?? The same issue was with P-47C/D or P-51B/C if we look in Tony Wood's list. The same issue is with identity of german planes. E.g. all Fw-190 for soviet pilot were "foker" FW-190 and they never report about Fw-190A,F,G etc. The same story with Bf109...

The report from JG6 astonished me personally, because I suppose, it is unable to distinguish both type, if you don't take a seat on the chair :)

Regards

Re: Luftwaffe reports on downed Lavochkins
 

Hi Igor,

this is very interesting. Can you tell me which IAPs used different colors to mark the spinners of their 3 squadrons? Would be especially interested in the 5th and 17th VVS, - if any. Thanks,

Gabor

Re: Luftwaffe reports on downed Lavochkins
 

John
There was a question about difference between La-5FN and La-7 and I answered it as best as I could. This, together with details of Lend-Lease aircraft, is a widely available info, eg. in MBI monographs or Red Stars series.

Igor
There are reports noting either Me 109F or G, but otherwise your comment is spot on.

Re: Luftwaffe reports on downed Lavochkins
 

Differences:

LaGG-3 (german identificate this as LaGG-3 or just LaGG)
http://www.wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Maga...68/Draw/21.jpg

La-5 - La-5F (german identificate La-5 as LaGG-5 or LaGG-9)
http://www.wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Maga...69/Draw/03.jpg

La-5F - La-5FN (german identificate this as La-5)
http://www.wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Maga...69/Draw/07.jpg

La-5FN - La-7 (german identificate this as La-5 or very rare as La-7)
http://www.wunderwaffe.narod.ru/Maga...70/Draw/02.jpg

As You can see, there is lack of visual differences between La5FN and La-7, and it was very easy to misidentificate.

About colour marking of spinnercowl - AFAIK, there are following colours in Polk (equal german Gruppe) - as it was in 9 GvIAP:
1 Eskadrilya (Staffel) - red
2 Eskadrilya (Staffel) - blue
3 Eskadrilya (Staffel) - Yellow

At least red cowl markings of La-7 were used in following regiments:
2 GvIAP,9 GvIAP, 32 GvIAP, 41 GvIAP, 63 GvIAP, 111 GvIAP, 176 GvIAP.

A little OT: 2 Franek Grabowski:
You are NOT right. I can proove it, if You want.
According veterans memories, it was not serious problem to control manually all sistems in dogfight for them even when they were very young and unexpirienced pilots because it was so well trained IN EVERY pilot school, that in dogfight could swich all controls "automatically", without loosing concentration.

MAY be You are thinking that La-5 & La-7 was a "bad" fighter... But german pilots, who was shot down by La's, disagree with You :) And dont forget that top scored Allied ace was pilot of La-5, La-5FN and La-7 - I.N.Kogedub.

Re: Luftwaffe reports on downed Lavochkins
 

IIRC there were at least 40 changes between La-5FN and La-7. But i think it's right to say that in Germany this would be a letter behind the type designation.

Bad quality of parts shouldn't get to the assumption, the soviet planes hadn't good aerodynamics. In german reports about captived planes is stated, that british and soviet planes had in general worse quality in production, but this cannot be said about aerodynamic parts. Such differences were one of the reasons for the higher production figures of the allied industries. (Source: Budraß)

Re: Luftwaffe reports on downed Lavochkins
 

2 Jens: are You talking about captured La-5F, wich was tested by Germans?

In russian forum there was a thread about THIS La-5F... It was very long serviced aircraft, with 2 !!! belly landings... And damaged engine... :)

Re: Luftwaffe reports on downed Lavochkins
 

According the veteran memo, in 41 GIAP only the 3rd squadron has a red cowl, the other squadron has another colour(Alekseev from 41 GIAP)

2Gabor. Unfortenately I has not any details about the planes of 17 Air Army.

Re: Luftwaffe reports on downed Lavochkins
 

Evgeniy
You should note that there was no particular order of colours and this varied between units.
But you just prove my point! It is evident from your post that the performance are strictly dependant on pilot's abilities.
Otherwise, according to the veterans they often preliminary set everything before entering the combat just to avoid distraction. As I understand, average flight time of a Soviet pilot was in the area of 200-300 hrs before entering the combat. I am wondering, that if Westerners trained pilots for about 600 hrs, and then still introduced automatic devices, does it not mean they were worth of it?
Following this logic, you will find a number of pilots convinced of I-15's superiority.
And Rechkalov had 60+3 flying Airacobras. What is the conclusion? I do not mention the fact, that those victories cannot be compared to the ones of eg. Gabreski and Johnson due to different verification system.
Actually I have seen various hypothesis but not the proof the aircraft was worn out or damaged. Most of the Russian researchers are confused with the case and one of the versions I have heard is that possibly Lerche did not adjust all the systems properly. An argument supporting the thesis was the fact, Soviet test pilots did similar mistakes.

Jens
When the report had been filed? I believe all the Allied reports post-1943 underline the fact of decreasing quality of the German production. Nonetheless it must be noted aerodynamics is just only one factor.