P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin
 

Howdy all,

I am trying to help out a German friend of mine with a research request. His father was Oblt. KarlHeinz Dietsche, Staffelkapitaen of 2./JG302. Oblt. Dietsche was involved in air combat with P-47s west of Berlin on 29 Mar 44. He was subsequently shot down in his Fw190 by a P-47 near Stendal, Germany (about 60 miles due west of Berlin). I am trying to determine who the P-47 pilot was who may have shot him down.

I searched the Air Force Historical Research Agency database that documents all AF aerial victory credits. I found 37 confirmed claims for 29 Mar 44. After discarding all P-51 unit credits, I came up with 9 possible candidates. They are as follows:

Callans, Glenn G. 1Lt, 352 FS
Forkin, Thomas J. Capt 352 FS
Jordan, William J. 1Lt. 352 FS
Rankin, Robert J. 1Lt. 61 FS
Rubner, Chester H. Jr. 1Lt. 359 FS
Schilling, David C. Lt. Col. 56 FG
Streit, William F. 1Lt. 352 FS
Thorne, James H. Major 359 FS

Does anyone know which of the above outfits (352nd FS, 61 FS, 359th FS, or 56th FG) was operating west of Berlin on 29 Mar 44?

Thanks much in advance. Cheers, Gary Koch

Hopes this helps close the gaps.

56FG Claims:

56FG HQ LtCol David Schilling 1 ME109 Dest NE Dummer Lake
61FS Lt Robert Rankin 1 ME109 Dest NE Nienburg

356FG Claims:

356 HQ Maj J H Thorne 1 ME109 Dest Steinhuder Lake
359FS Lt C H Rubner 1 ME109 Dest Steinhuder Lake
359FS Lt J B Smith 1 ME109 Dest Steinhuder Lake

No detailed info on file for 353FG claims; 352FS claimed 5 E/A dest during escort over "NW Germany".

The downing location near Stendal makes it appear unlikely this gentleman was downed by a P47; if a P47 was involved it would have been at the extreme edge of its range in March 1944; a P51 would be a more likely opponent. Time of the engagement would help narrow down possible opponents

Re: P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin
 

356th Fighter Group
Lt. Col. Tukey led a penetration support from 1154 to 1545 hrs. Landfall near Egmond at 1235 and R/V near Quackenbruck at 1301.

Three German fighters, identified as Me 109s, were seen in the Steinhuder Lake area. Maj. Thorne (HQ) claimed a 109 shot down and Lt. Rubner (359th Sqn) claimed another 109 shot down in the same action.

56th Fighter Group
Col. Zemke led a withdrawl support from 1242 to 1619 hrs. The planes were divided into 'A' and 'B' groups, although Zemke, Capt. Gladych and Lt. Robey took off on a freelance sweep about 10 minutes in advance of the two main formations.

Lt. Rankin (61st Sqn) was part of 'A' Group lifting off at 1252. Landfall near Ijmuiden at 1333 and R/V near Neinberg at 1410. About this time several German fighters, identified as Me 109s, were seen approaching from the southeast at 23,000 ft. Rankin claimed one destroyed.

Lt. Col. Schilling (HQ) led 'B' group lifting off at 1302. R/V over Sulingen at 1425. The B-17s were then under attack by German fighters that approached from the east. Schilling claimed one Me 109 destroyed.

Hope this helps.

Re: P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin
 

Hello all,

I recently received additional information regarding this particular action. Oblt. KarlHeinz Dietsche, Staffelkapitaen of 2./JG302 was flying Bf109G-6, Werknummer 440160, when he was shot down. He told his son that he was not sure if his opponent was a P-51 or P-47, but believes it was a P-47 because it gained on him in a dive at a much greater rate of speed than his own. It looks like the engagement took place near Magdeburg. He told told his son that he was shot down near Stendal, but he went into the hospital of Jüterbog. Not having a detailed map of the area, does this correspond to any known claims information (P-51 or P-47) for 29 Mar 44? Thanks, Vielen Dank, and Merci beaucoup for any help.

Cheers, Gary Koch

Re: P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin
 

4FG claimed several ME109s on this date, but unfortunately many are lacking location information and where locations are given none are in the vicinity given by your friend's father.

For a copy of a WWII Luftwaffe map of western Europe visit this link:

http://jg26.vze.com/

Re: P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin
 

Lt. Col. Clark led the 4th Fighter Group on a Target Withdrawl Support to Brunswick from 1135 to 1635. A mixed bag of Messerschmitts and Focke-Wulfs were claimed as shot down:

334th FS:
Lt. Col. James A. Clark, FW-190, 1450 hrs, Magdeburg area.
Lt. Allan F. Bunte, FW-190, 1450 hrs, Magdeburg area.
Lt. David W. Howe, FW-190, 1329 hrs, 10 mi. n/w of Brunswick.
Lt. H. Thomas Biel, FW-190, 1330 hrs, Gifhorn, west of Brunswick.

335th FS:
Lt. Pierce W. McKennon, FW-190, ---- hrs, Brunswick area.
Lt. Clemens A. Fielder, ME-109, time and location unknown.
Lt. Charles F. Anderson, 2 FW-190s, time and location unknown.
Lt. Ralph W. Saunders, ME-109, time and location unknown.
Lt. Robert C. Church, ME-109, time and location unknown.
Lt. Paul S. Riley, ME-109, time and location unknown.

336th FS:
Capt. Don S. Gentile, 2 Fw-190s, ME-109, 1330-1400 hrs, Brunswick area.
Lt. John D. Godfrey, 2 Fw-190s, 1330 hrs, Brunswick area.
F/O Frederick W. Glover, Fw-190, 1330 hrs, Brunswick area.
Capt. Kenneth D. Peterson, 2 Fw-190s, 1315 hrs, s/w of Brunswick.

Lt. Col. Everett Stewart led the 355th Fighter Group on a Target Support over Brunswick from 1124 to 1609. They claimed 14 German planes shot down at locations unknown to me. Capt. Joseph E. Broadhead of the 357th Fighter Group claimed a German aircraft destroyed but I don't know the details. The 354th Fighter Group was off duty that day, as far as I know.

Re: P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin
 

The 355th FG attacked 40-50 Fw 190's near Brunswick (the target) at approximately 1320GMT and had claims of 14 air and two ground. Both the 354FS and 357FS were attacking in P-51B's. The Luftwaffe fighter force approached the B-17s from SW direction.

The 51 would usually close on an Fw 190 in a dive with no problem... although nothing out dove a Jug.

Regards,

Bill Marshall

Re: P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin
 

Actually, T-bolt had pretty poor dive performance, both Mustang and Spitfire outdiving it. This was a surprising result of supersonic dive tests performed in Britain.

Re: P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin
 

Franek - two points.

One you are actually correct about a Mustang outdiving a P-47 depending on model - but I really was referring to Fw 190 and 109 vs P-47 in a dive and should have been more explicit in my comments.


For the second point, I am aware of the results of tests done by USAAF at Wright Pat in comparisons of the P-51B versus Spit IX, Fw 190D, P-47D-10 and the Bf 109G12 - and the Mustang outdove all of them to varying degrees. In the case of the 47D it intially opened a gap and then the 47 matched the dive. In addition, the P-51B slightly out accelerated the P-51D in all envelopes because of the greater weight of the 51D.

I read a similar report on the P-47M versus the P-51D and the report stated that on initial nose over the 51 opened a slight gap but the P-47M closed and then moved ahead.. I will try to dig up the report so that this discussion does not remain hearsay.

Also, I have never seen a comparison of the P-51B vs the P-47D-25 or other versions which had the 'Paddle Blade' modifications that went into combat in January 1944.

Do you know which versions of Spit, Jug and Mustang were used by the Germans to conduct their tests and under which circumstances?

Re: P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin
 

Bill
The tests I mention were performed by Britons in 1943. A Spitfire tested was PR.XI, basically the same aircraft as Mk IX. It was found that it was a superior aircraft in a long term dive, this due to thin airfoil. Had it been realised before, the fate of several Germans would have been different.
Mustang was fast indeed, but it suffered from directional stability problems, which resulted in structural failures. I cannot say if it was the only problem though.
Thunderbolt was anything but aerodynamic, I suppose it gained its reputation by quick entering into dive without a half roll but it was not a good diver. It had a much safer structure allowing to recover from such dives without a risk though, possibly due to lower Gs applied.
I do not have any data allowing direct comparison of supersonic speeds between German and Allied aircraft unfortunatelly.
Best wishes

Re: P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin
 

All of the fighters mentioned had compressibility issues which led to structural failures when pilots tried to pull out of dive before reaching dense enough altitude to use trim to start the pull out. This resulted in either control reversals or 'concrete stick' as back pressure was attempted to pull the aircraft out pre-maturely.

The P51D had several mods applied to correct the wing root/spar failures of the B/C which killed several pilots... while 'directional stability' at very high speeds manifested itself, it was actually better served in that respect than the D which required the fin 'strake' modification to assist after removing the 'turtledeck' of the B/C.

The also D had a greater root chord than the B and improved the gear and door design - which was identified as one of the root causes (i.e 'popping open in compressibility dive)... which makes a D so easy to identify from above (from a B/C) with a more pronounced angle from the leading edge inboard of the .50 Cal machine guns.

The P-38 had a different aerodynamic issue due to the interaction if center section airflow over the horizontal stab - causing flutter in a high speed dive.

I candidly do not know what issues the Spit or FW or 109 had re; Compressibility. I'm pretty sure that Mach Critical was in same range for all ----> .79 to .82 range

None of the pilots I talked to growing up ever mentioned that the P-47 was difficult to control in a dive and these included Gabreski and Mahurin and Billy Hovde (who flew in the 355th FG with my father in WWII - first P-47's, then Mustangs). They were very unequivocal in their praise of the 47 in pursuit of both the Fw 190 and Bf 109 in dives.

These are interesting debates which I have had in different formats with Wing Commander Brown in his assessments of 'Best WWII fighter..' Thank you Franek!

Regards,

Bill

Re: P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin
 

Bill
Yes, indeed, every 'modern' piston fighter was able to reach tremendous speeds, though I think control reversal (aeroelasticity) was more an issue of early jets rather than pistons. More an issue was propeller overspeeding and all the issues related to speed of prop tip.
Problems with Mustang were more related to trouble with identifying weak points rather than rectifying them. Early P-51B/C suffered several high speed dive crashes but I think it was suspected a structural weakness rather than unstability.
Measured Spitfire CrM was 0,89, this based on tests by 'Fuehrer' Martindale. I think it was a highest value for any piston fighter. I recall reading about German high speed dives but I cannot recall where.
The main issue with Thunderbolt was that due to superior engine power it was better suited to high speed manouvers, also it never accelerated that fast to reach dangerous speeds. The one must have been very careful in Spitfire, but I think the main problem was that it was not realised that Spitfire could have outdived any German aircraft. Pilots were not awared and not believed that.
Best wishes
Franek
PS I am droping you a PM.

Re: P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin
 

The critical mach number (and hence maximum dive speed) of the Spitfire was higher than its contemporaries because of the thinner wing. Mcrit is a function of the thickness of the wing and how far aft is the point of maximum thickness. Hoerner's classic work on aircraft drag has a figure showing the curve produced from the experimental data on many aircraft. The Spitfire is, if I remember correctly, around 0.91, the Mustang around 0.84. Other aircraft, such as the Me 262, cluster around 0.78-0.82. Which is sufficient in itself to prove that no, the Me262 did not go supersonic. Some aircraft e.g the P-38 encounter compressibility problems at speeds lower than Mcrit because of local interferences, in this case between the fuselage and the nacelles.

A postwar Spitfire PR XIX was timed at a greater rate of descent (than Martindale) in a thunderstorm over the South China Sea: however, I suspect that the air mass itself was descending and thus the local Mach Number no greater.

Re: P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin
 

Re: P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin
 

Acceleration is one thing, maximum speed attainable - another. Airfoil and wing shape are decisive in regard of aircraft performance.

Ridiculous comment, because it was essentially a modified Mk IX airframe with enlarged oil tank, wing leading edge tanks, unarmoured windscreen and retractable tailwheel. Not the changes making a substantial difference.

Wing did not differ from later variants and it was the only variant then available. Actually, it was found it is quite fast aircraft but Spitfire was faster. There was no dissapointment.

Those were not ordinary pilots flying those dives. Several flights had been done and it was found that the aircraft is surprisingly bad and dissapointing in dive.

They did so, because nobody believed it is possible to catch a diving German, Helmut Wick believed this and it costed him life. It was quite a different story with tropicalised variants but for another reason.

Re: P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin
 

Re: P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin
 

Speed of sound is constant and always Mach=1. It is a proportion of speed of desired object to speed of sound at given parameters - u/a.
Aim of tests was to find an aircraft with highest speed it could achieve in relation to speed of sound , ie. Mcr. So if aircraft achieved its Mcr at dive from 28,000 ft, putting it on 40,000 ft would not change anything.
Perhaps, but analysis of known records concerning 1943 combats does not support thesis of Thunderbolt's superiority.
Nope, I am not talking about surprising attack but prolonged chase.
It was occassionally reported by pilots that the German aircraft are not that fasr in dive, eg. during Circus 138, Sgt(?) Karol Sumara of 316 Sqn noted that F.W.190 cannot outdive Spitfire - it was him, who was bounced.
A very interesting is analysis of pilots' opinions after test flying of clipped wing Spitfire. It shows, what is the value of accounts and opinions in general.

Re: P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin
 

Re: P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin
 

I am afraid you cannot understand simple laws of physics. If an aircraft reaches Mcr at low level, increasing it will not change anything! Mcr is constant non-dimensional value non dependant on AS.

Yup, let's go. Please, prove me that M=0,83 that Herb Fisher was unable to exceed is more than M=0,89 achieved by Martindale.

Every aircraft that was reported to have poor handling qualities or performances was tested at Boscombe Down. In most cases this was caused by poor servicing - apparently this was the case of this Spitfire, which was damaged at 66 Sqn, then rpaired and sent to BD.

There was no Spitfire with such serial.

Ridiculous. Making complaints because the aircraft reached the top speed for a propeller driven aircraft and this caused a few malfunctions? Fisher achieved TAS=560, a little bit less than Martindale, I would love to see what would have happen with Thunderbolt flying with TAS=600.

This was also reported by Polish pilots. I am not sure what it has to dive speeds but eg. Mustangs also suffered such failures. They were fatal however, so no such aircraft was ever tested.

You may like it or not but PAF was the greatest foreign operator of Spitfires. Thus, I may conclude Polish stats or observations would be representative for the type.

I do not know if you do that willingly or not but it was clearly noted that Fw 190 was able to escape (Split-S) due to excellent ailerons' efficiency and superrior roll rate. This was improved in later Spitfires, starting with Mk XII.

I doubt if Fw 190D had much different Mcr than Fw 190A, this means their maximum speeds must have been similar.

Re: P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin
 

Re: P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin
 

All six of you?
That is why Mach number is used.
It does not matter, due to nature of Mach.
What page?
If it was an instrument speed it would be called IAS and not TAS. Otherwise nobody used ASI to such measurements!
That means that Fw 190 was worser even from Thunderbolt, nothing more.
This was simply realised in 1943, when it was a little bit too late. Had it been found earlier, no doubt Spit pilots would have been encouraged to chase their enemies.
Acceleration is one thing, speed is another, and yet another is air combat. No aircraft could escape Spitfire by simple diving because Spitfire is the fastest piston aircraft ever known.

Re: P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin
 

Spitfire is the fastest single engine piston plane ever known..............

Ehhhhhhhh NOT

The record for the fastest single-engined piston plane is held by a modified Grumman F8F Bearcat
545.07 mph (876.47 km/h) in 1969
Before that a Messerschmitt Bf 209 hold the speed record for 30 years.
469.22 mph on April 26, 1939

Olve Dybvig

Re: P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin
 

Olve, are you trying to prove 545 mph is more than 600 mph?

Re: P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin
 

ha ha funny Franek
Well, No spitfire hold the world record of the fastest aircraft.
Perheps the Spit is awsome in dive, but since the current record holder is not tested in the same condition, the frase: Spitfire is the fastest piston aircraft ever known, has no value

remains me of the old add; Wolkswagen Beetle, no one faster in free dive

Best
Olve Dybvig

Re: P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin
 

Franek - Iim pretty sure the fastest production fighter in level flight is the P-51H which flew at 487mph at 25,000 feet. I think the Do-335 was the fastest German fighter at 474mph and I recall that one variant of the Spitfire attained 479mph. They never flew against each other obviously.

The fastest experimental P-51 was the XP-51G at 495mph and the fastest experimental P-47 was the P-47J at 507mph. All of these were achieved at high altitude in level flight.

I am not aware of any 'official' faster speeds for un-modified ships in level flight.

It should be noted that the Reno racer Bearcats and Mustangs (HIGHLY modified) flew at 528 mph world speed records on the deck but were never tested for max speed at optimal altitude and presumably would have been faster in 20-25,000 range if the contrast between P-51 on the deck and altitude were used as a thought guideline. I recall (but could be wrong) taht the only non Bearcat/Mustang a/c that exceeded 500mph on the deck was the highly modified Sea Fury..

Offhand what true airspeeds were recorded and validated (accurate TAS) in either the Luftwaffe or RAF dive tests for the Spit, the P-47, the Fw 190 and the P-51? For example the Mach crit number for the 51 airfoil was around .82 but the mach limitation in a dive was .76 before bad things happened - a reflection of the entire a/c not just the wing.

What was a comparable critical mach for the Spit in a dive?

Re: P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin
 

You do relize that on the deck at Reno is around 5000ft.

Did Franek say the fastest in level flight?

Re: P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin
 

He said: Spitfire is the fastest piston aircraft ever known.
And since official speed records are done in level flight, we have to use that

Olve

Re: P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin
 

Yes - I do know what the 'altitude' of the deck is at Reno. The rules however stipulate that the speed records be established 300 feet AGL not sea level.

No - He stated fastest fighter (presumably piston) but I must admit I have serious doubts that a Spitfire ever came close to 600mph in a dive but willing to examine the facts (and the data).

The 262 reached a verified and validated .86 Mach in a dive - no way the Spit exceeded that and kept it's tail on.

Re: P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin
 

Nice data on the Spit's dive performance
http://www.spitfireperformance.com/sd2011.jpg

Re: P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin
 

Re: P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin
 

Both North American and USAAF dive tests established the .76 Mach 'Do Not Exceed' limit for the Mustang (same for A, B/C, D and K) which was about 475mph TAS and 280 IAS at 20,000 feet. Obviously this isn't too far from the Mcrit of those models Laminar Flow airfoil at .82.. I believe, opinion wise, that several example exist where higher speeds were attained (and survived) but they weren't documented under rigid scientific framework.

I also know the P-51H exceeded 500+ TAS in a dive but I haven't been able to put my fingers on the data - it also had a thinner laminar flow wing and 1,000 pounds lighter - and seem to recall the Mcrit was .85 for the thinner wing but not sure.

The P-51 was just plain 'cleaner' aerodynamically than any operational piston engine fighter in WWII... which is why I seriously doubt that any spitfire came close to 600mph in a dive much less 500 w/o ripping it's drawers.

Franek - where can we look to see what you have seen on the test data?

My sources are the North American data published in Mustang by Robert Gruenhagen, and Mustang Designer by Ray Wagner - which is as much about Edgar Schmued (Head of NA Design and father of P-51).

Regards,

Bill

Re: P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin
 

Well, a look at respective angle of dive column proves any discussion with you is just a waste of time. Bye.

Bill
Mustang was cleaner, no doubt, but Spitfire dived better.
When I cope with recent projects, I will make some sort of order with my papers and then let you know exact details. IIRC (this may be in archive) Mustang's top speed was around M=0,8 and Thunderbolt's - M=0,7 but I may be wrong.

Re: P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin
 

Re: P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin
 

Re: P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin
 

Cool it guys or this thread is frozen and maybe gone. Stick to the issues.

Re: P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin
 

Re: P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin
 

I suggest you consult the records concerning the diving trials carried out at Boscombe down by Sq.Ldr. Martindale, where a dive Mach of around 0.91 was achieved. The tail stayed on but the reduction gear broke and the propellor came off. He was able to bring the aircraft to a safe landing - a photograph has been published.

I'm far from clear why a Spitfire's tail should come off but a 190's stay on?

Re: P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin
 

Apologies for the duplication: for some reason my machine wasn't picking up the later parts of this discussion when I first entered it. No doubt my fault.

However, as the appropriate test results are presumably still available, perhaps a visit to the National Archives is called for?

Re: P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin
 

John
I simply leave this discussion. In my opinion, if one uses speed after recovery from a dive as an argument against high dive performances, it is an indicator not to waste time anymore.

Re: P-47 Actions 29 Mar 44 near Berlin
 

To all concerned, my name is john, and I am the son of the first pilot listed, Glenn G. Callans. I have most of my fathers records and will search for the event listed. I will post it if any information relates to it. Regretably, my father passed April 9, 1994. However I know if he were here he would with out a doubt be apart of this forum. He loved reuniting with his former "Thunderbolt" and other flight buddies.