SG 4 losses 26.12.1944
 

Gentlemen,
I'm looking for any information regarding the a/c, crashplaces and the circumstances of the following SG 4 losses on 26.12.44:

Hptm. Heinz Jungclausen, Staffelkapitän 3./SG 4, KIA, (Spitfires?)
Hptm. Schürmer, Staffelkapitän 1./SG 4, KIA
Ofw. Weinreich MIA?
Ofw. Karl Zumkeller, KIA, somewhere in Luxembourg

Any information would be appreciated.

Heuser

Re: SG 4 losses 26.12.1944
 

All I can find is the following. It may be of some help

www.luftwaffe39-45.historia.nom.br/ases/jungclausen.htm Heinz Jungclausen



Kind regards
Ross

Re: SG 4 losses 26.12.1944
 

Re: SG 4 losses 26.12.1944
 

Sorry wrong presentation
26/12/1944 Brachtenbach "Barkent"Fw-190 F-8 9:30WNr-9334757./SG 4
Yellow 16+Ofw Zumkeller Karl (WND+KIA)60899/

26/12/1944Bastogne (area) Fw-190 F-8 WNr-683600 6./SG 4 OfwWeinreich Heinrich (KIA)208273/175

26/12/1944Assmannshausen 1KM SFw-190 F-8 WNr-581016 1./SG 4HptmSchümer Erich (KIA)53452/227

26/12/1944Weiler Near Boppard ??Salbing near Borbach? Fw-190 F-8 WNr-582293 3./SG 4
Yellow 2+Hptm Jungclausen Heinz RK (KIA) 57055/8

Re: SG 4 losses 26.12.1944
 

Last chance

26/12/1944 Brachtenbach "Barkent"Fw-190 F-8 9:30 WNr-933475 7./SG 4
Yellow 16+ Ofw Zumkeller Karl (WND+KIA)60899/

26/12/1944 Bastogne (area) Fw-190 F-8 WNr-683600 6./SG 4 Ofw Weinreich Heinrich (KIA)208273/175

26/12/1944 Assmannshausen 1KM S Fw-190 F-8 WNr-581016 1./SG 4 HptmSchümer Erich (KIA)53452/227

26/12/1944 Weiler Near Boppard ??Salbing near Borbach? Fw-190 F-8 WNr-582293 3./SG 4 Yellow 2+ Hptm Jungclausen Heinz RK (KIA) 57055/8

Re: SG 4 losses 26.12.1944
 

Gentlemen,
Thank you very much for all your efforts and your valuable informations. Jungclausen is buried in Boppard (near Weiler) and Schürmer in Wiesbaden. I only have a few RAF claims, are there any known confirmed claims of RAF fighters in this area?

Heuser

Re: SG 4 losses 26.12.1944
 

Hello Heuser !

OFw. Helmut Nietzschmann, Geschwaderstab JG 4, took off at 10:33 h with his Geschwader-Kommodore to a flight in the front area. At about 11:45 h over Naurath, which is about 12 km N/E of Trier, Germany, they met 12 SPITFIRES of No. 421 Sq, which claimed two "Me 109" as shot down. The time is given as 11:45 h and the location is given with Trier in their Operational Log.

Helmut Nietzschmann was initially buried in Naurath ans his father received a letter, dated 2 January 1945 from the Kommodore, describinng the events that day.

Sources:

-Victory-List RAF 400 Series Squadron
-Sturmjäger, Band 2 by Eric Mombeek

Best regards,

Horst Weber

Re: SG 4 losses 26.12.1944
 

Hi, guys

I am trying to match these to the losses as listed in the Summarische Verlustemeldungen for SG 4 on this date.

There are 5 in total, and as no loss reason is given in the list by Flupke, this is a bit difficult.

The losses are:

I./S.G.4:

2 aircraft cat 4 (Destroyed by gunfire from enemy aircraft on operational flight, observed by enemy)

In my opinion this is then Schürmer (or Schümer?) and Jungclausen

II./S.G.4:

This unit has not reported any losses on this date (or at least not filed any before January 31st 1945), which is not unlikely, as the loss of Lt. Schlegel lost on 19.12.1944 is not reported befor February 8th 1945. But... as the loss records from 01.02.1945 through 01.04.1945 are available and the loss is not listed there, it is not very likely...

If this is the case, and the Staffel assignment for Weinreich is correct, this should be in this one.

III./S.G.4:

One aircraft category 1 (Missing due to enemy action). This could not be Zumkeller as I feel I can read out of the entry that he was wounded in action and died of his wounds. He would not thus have been listed as missing.

One aircraft category 21 (Damaged without enemy action on operational flight)

One aircraft category 23 (Damaged without enemy action on non-operational flight)

I feel that one of these are Zumkeller.

Can you add anything with regards to loss reasons Flupke?

Best regards,
Andreas B

Re: SG 4 losses 26.12.1944
 

Attached please find III./S.G. 4 Erfolgsmeldung for 26-12-1944, from the unit's KTB.

regards,
Pawel

Re: SG 4 losses 26.12.1944
 

Hi, Pawel.

Great info, and I stand corrected (which is great when something new can be learned!)

OK, so for III./S.G.4 we have the following:

One aircraft category 1 (Missing due to enemy action). This is then Zumkeller.

One aircraft category 21 (Damaged without enemy action on operational flight). I think they listed the damage to Weist aircraft in this category, as the aircraft was damaged bei so-called Bodenberührung the GenQu6Abt would rate is as not infolcted by enemy action. (in this case questionable if you read the entire report, but nonetheless the probable action by the statistics office)

One aircraft category 23 (Damaged without enemy action on non-operational flight). Not in this list, and probably a landing/take-off accident or similar during a transfer flight or something like that later on in the day.

The damage to Fw. Tschöp aircraft is probably judged to be below 10%, and thus not reported to the GenQu6Abt at all.

Pawel, I have entered all S.G.4 losses in the Summarische Verlustemeldungen into the database, and it would be highly interesting to compare this to any further information like this you might have. Pleas contact me by PM.

Best regards,
Andreas B

Re: SG 4 losses 26.12.1944
 

Very interesting, Pawel! Maybe you want to share more pages of such a fantastic document ;)?

Anyway, at least I'd like to know what the mentiones 12 "M8" ordonance is?

Re: SG 4 losses 26.12.1944
 

Not an expert in this field, description is given as '8 cm R Sprenggranat-Patr.'

HTH,
Pawel

Re: SG 4 losses 26.12.1944
 

III./SG 4's KTB is on microfilm at the Imperial War Museum if that's any help.

The M8 is the [i]Panzerblitz[/1] 1 rocket and they exepended 12 of them, so one aircraft carried rockets (six under each wing) and the other six had AB 250 canisters.

Re: SG 4 losses 26.12.1944
 

And as RL10/359 (KTB III./SG 4 1.11.1944-19.1.1945) and RL10/464 (Anlagen zum KTB III./SG 4) in BA/MA Freiburg. The Erfolgsberichte belong to RL10/464 and there are ones for the following dates; 7.12.44, 18.12.44, 24.12.44, 26.12.44, 1.1.45, 2.1.45, 7.1.45 and 10.1.45.

cheers,

John.

Re: SG 4 losses 26.12.1944
 

Nick,

as a follow up; I am not 100% convinced that M.8 and Panzerblitz 1 are identical. There is a report of III./SG 4 of 19.12.1944 which is an "Erfahrungsbericht über den Einsatz von Fw 190 mit Pz.-Blitz und M.8". This report also mentions that "Aus einer Höhe von etwa 30 m und einem Gleitwinkel von etwa 10 Grad wurden von jeder Maschine Salven von 1 mal 6 Schuss Pz.-Blitz und 1 mal 6 Schuss M.8 abgeschossen." This gives me the impression that they are not 100% identical. However, I never found what the difference was....

cheers,

John

Re: SG 4 losses 26.12.1944
 

...and also on T971 roll 9

Another description of M8 from III./S.G. 4 file is -
Sprenggranaten mit Raketenantrieb nach Werferart

regards,
Pawel

Re: SG 4 losses 26.12.1944
 

Good point. So which type were the rockets that the RAF Air Technical Intelligence investigators found on the shot down SG 4 Fw 190, I wonder?

I do have an idea though: Panzerblitz = an armour-piercing warhead (hollow charge?) and M.8 = Minengeschoß or ...kopf as with the R4M, a warhead depending on blast effect. Both could have used a common rocket motor.

Re: SG 4 losses 26.12.1944
 

Hi Nick,

I assume you mean the rockets found at the crashsite of Fw. Rudolf Fye of 9./SG 4 who crashed near Maasmechelen on 1.1.45. The Crashed Enemy Aircraft Report mentions that RP were found. Do you know if a report exist on the technical evaluation of these RP? Five were found. The Erfahrungsbericht of III./SG 4 for 1.1.45 indicates that these were M.8.

cheers,

John.

Re: SG 4 losses 26.12.1944
 

Hi John,

I made a note on a visit to the PRO in September 1986 (!) that there is a report on AIR40/2161 "A.I.2(g) reports 1613 - 1750 (incomplete)". All I wrote down then was "1.1.45: 8 cm rocket on Fw 190 at Asch, 70 cm length, six u/w [= underwing] rails like RAF RP's." I'm sure there's more to the report than that but I only took a quick note as I intended to get back to it some day but in the same file (and same page of my notebook) I found my first wreck report on an NSG 9 Ju 87 and got distracted …

Re: SG 4 losses 26.12.1944
 

Nick,

yep, that is the same Fw 190. If anybody has those pages (report) than I would very much like to have copies......and Nick, you shouldn't be so distracted easily......:-)

cheers,

John.

Re: SG 4 losses 26.12.1944
 

I would also like to get a copy of the report, if that is possible.

Here, from p. 213 of "Flugzeugbewaffnung" by Hanfried Schliephake is a copy of the British drawing of that rocket from the downed Fw 190. Note that the author calls it a "Panzerblitz 1" whereas, at least on the drawing, it is termed only an "8 cm Rocket Projectile."

Re: SG 4 losses 26.12.1944
 

Hello George !

This drawing doesn't show a weapon with armour-piercing capabilities. How comes the name "Panzerblitz" ?.

Best regards,

Horst Weber

Re: SG 4 losses 26.12.1944
 

A very good question, Horst. As I said, the British did not call it an armour-piercing rocket. And, since the Germans were attacking airfields and not tank concentrations, there is no reason why their Fw 190s should be carrying anti-tank rockets. So, as you questioned, Horst, this does not appear to be the Panzerblitz rocket at all, and is perhaps the M.8 rocket that John Manrho has referred to.