Heinkel He 60 losses
 

The following units were equipped with the He 60 at the start of the war:

1.(M)/106
1./BFGr.196
1.(M)/506
1.(M)/706
1.(M)/306
5./BFGr.196

What losses did these units suffer in 1939?

Thanks,

Neil

Re: Heinkel He 60 losses
 

Only three He 60 were lost in the period 01.09.1939 to 31.12.1939, all during September 1939.

03.09.1939 1./506 He 60D W.Nr. 1463 M7+DH 100% Pillau-Neutief. During take-off for a recce sortie to the Bay of Danzig, the floats hit harbour installations. The aircraft caught fire and was completely wrecked. Lt.d.R. Hoffmann (observer) and Uffz. Damrau (pilot) were both killed.

11.09.1939 1./506 He 60E W.Nr. 1587 100% Pillau-Neutief. Crashed shortly before landing when the pilot was temporary blinded by light. Lt.z.See Kleemann (observer) and Lt. Nick (pilot) were both rescued unwounded.

22.09.1939 1./306 He 60 W.Nr. not known K6+QH Damaged during forced landing off Kaaseberga near Kivik in Sweden due to engine problems. The aircraft was towed to Ystad by Swedish destroyer "Vidar" and interned. Returned to Germany 04.11.1940. Oblt. Gerhard Grosse (pilot) and Lt.z.See Helmut von Rabenau (observer) were both unwounded and interned in Sweden. Both returned to Germany 08.06.1940.

Re: Heinkel He 60 losses
 

About the first loss, the Volksbund database has an Uffz Ernst August Damrau who died on 2 September 1939 in Pillau/Neutief.

This is in all probability the same man, but there is a discrepency on the death date (maybe due to a night crash?).

There are several Hoffman listed by the database on 2 and 3 September but none is a Leutnant, and none died in Pillau (tested all possibles writings for Ho(e)f(f)man(n)).

Seaplanes, seeing your name just reminded me I had a question for you for some time. On 2 October 1944, a 605 Sqn Mosquito flown by Flt Lt Roy Lelong claimed 5 Do 24 destroyed and two damaged in Jasmunder Bay, and a Bv 138 damaged off Rugen Island, all on "the ground" (ie water in these cases). Do you have anything about such losses ?

Thanks in advance, and sorry for hijacking this thread

Laurent

Re: Heinkel He 60 losses
 

Hi,


I have also He 60 from 1/506 shot down by polish AA fire between 13-14.00 NE of Hallerowo. Could it be a He 59? How many He 59 were lost in September 1939 in polish campaign (I have: one on the 02.09, one on the 03.09, one on the 12.09 and one on the 01.10)?
Does somebody have a exactly times of accidents involving previous mentioned He 60`s?

Regards

Robert

Re: Heinkel He 60 losses
 

First the losses on October 2, 1944. You do know that this period is very difficult for losses, particulary if no one was injured, killed or missing. My records are very reliable up to the end of May 1944, then up to the end of August 1944 with some difficulty and from then on I have only those based on the WAST Namentliche Verlustmeldungen. I do have losses for October 2, 1944, but this is only for a Do 24 lost in the Med.

So to the He 59 in September 1939. I have losses registered on the 04.09., 26.09. and 29.09.1939.

Re: Heinkel He 60 losses
 

Hi Seaplanes,

I have:


02.09.39 - He 59 3/506 morning sea Flak s/d 100%
03.09.39 - He 59 3/706 18-19.00 Hel Flak s/d 100%
12.09.39 - He 59 1/506 Pillau crashed 100% (??? perhaps this is a loss from11.09.39)
01.10.39 - He 59 1/506 13.55 Hel Flak s/d 100%.
All information`s were taken from polish books or from Verlustmeldungen.
Which details you have?

Regards

Robert

Re: Heinkel He 60 losses
 

Thanks. I also have the Do 24 loss in Egean (WNr 2112). According to my files it was shot down by a Beaufighter flown by the crew Bays-Battiste of 46 Sqn. I have the crew list (3 dead, 3 survivors) but no details about passengers, except that they were 22 and there was only 1 survivor.

As for the Jasmunder Bay strafing, I was hoping you had something in an unit war diary, or pilot diary. If such losses were indeed inflicted, a Do 24 unit was probably wiped out (at least for aircraft) for some time, and this may appear in some documents. So I was hoping a specialist like you may have something about it.

Thanks anyway

Laurent

Re: Heinkel He 60 losses
 

Thanks for the information on He 60 losses in 1939. I'd be very interested in He 59 and He 115 losses in 1939 too.

Thanks,

Neil

Re: Heinkel He 60 losses
 

Hello,

It happened on the 2.9.1939.

Regards,
Marius

Re: Heinkel He 60 losses
 

Robert,

False. What is your source?


False. This aircraft was not lost.

Yes, 11.9.1939, but He 60.


??? What is your source?

Regards,
Marius

Re: Heinkel He 60 losses
 

Hi Marius,


the sources are some polish books about Hel defence and Morski Dywizjon Lotniczy.
Do you have more about this incident on 03.09.39 involving 3/706?

Regards

Robert

Re: Heinkel He 60 losses
 

Robert,

as I remember Polish AA shoot down 1 He 59 only. I must look for the details, but I mean it was on the morning of the 6th.

The aircraft on the 3rd was reported missing, but it should be the one with engine problems. There were no other losses on that day.

The term "missing" on the GQM loss lists does not mean "lost". This is very important for every historian who is working with these documents.

Regards,
Marius

Re: Heinkel He 60 losses
 

I was a bit quick off the mark when I claimed a He 59 loss on 11.09.39. From the KTB's of Gen.d.Lw.b.Ob.d.M/O.Qu. only two He 59's were lost during September 1939.

04.09.39 He 59D W.Nr. 2000 M7+XL of 3./506 (Pillau). 100% near Hela when shot down by Polish anti-aircraft fire. The entire crew were reported missing. Lt.z.See Münscher (B), Uffz. Becker (F), Uffz. Fuchs (Bf) and Uffz. Mux (Bw).

26.09.39 He 59D W.Nr. 1975 of 3./106 (Norderney). 100% destroyed when blown off the slipway during a storm at Norderney. No casualties.

The next He 59 loss I have is from 04.10.39.

For those of you claiming other losses than the two mentioned above, I would appreciate your sorce.

Re: Heinkel He 60 losses
 

Hi,

thanks. As I said my sources are polish books. So let`s wait for Marius details because these planes claimed as shot down could be only damaged.

Regards

Robert

Re: Heinkel He 60 losses
 

Hello,

I can confirm the loss of M7+XL with the whole crew, but for the morning of the 6.9.1939.
The 4.9.1939 in the KTB Gen.d.Lw.b.Ob.d.M/O.Qu. is just a mistake. The aircraft was reported missing a day earlier, on the 3rd. Next, now crashed aircraft (shot down by AA at Gdingen - Gdynia) was reported on the 6.9.1939 (Lt.z.See Münscher).

Regards,
Marius

Re: Heinkel He 60 losses
 

Hi Marius

What is the source for your information. I have the date 04.09.39 from two different KTB's.

Re: Heinkel He 60 losses
 

Hi,

you can find the data for 3.9. and 6.9. on GQM Luftwaffe loss lists. I cannot give you concrete sources now, but I saw many original documents, among others some KTB`s. I must find the info in my "chaos of papers".
What is the signature of both KTB´s you are referring to?

Regards,
Marius

Re: Heinkel He 60 losses
 

Hi Marius,


and this a/c from 3/706? You wrote that it was not lost. Only damaged?

Regards

Robert

Re: Heinkel He 60 losses
 

Sorry All
I am wading in with a question to Laurent and Seaplanes regarding the Do 24 WNr 2112 loss in the Med!:o I know it's late...

Checking the book Do 24 by Pieter van Wijngaarden/Prudent Staal they say (in Dutch..:( ) "09/05/44 gezonken na aanvaring met mijnenveger. Inzittenden vermist"

While I can't lay claim to fully understand what this loss is all about (why doesn't every author write in Swedish??:D ), it doesn't quite sound like a Beaufighter kill at the date you list!

I am dying for a good explanation....

Cheers
Stig

Re: Heinkel He 60 losses
 

Hi Robert,

it was 3./706. I remember as I was researching the losses in Poland one aircraft was reported with engine trouble. Nothing more, but I suppose it made a forcelanding and therefore was missing for a short time. In the meantine the "loss" was sent to the Oberkommando and GQM. Later it was not corrected. This happened in the Poland period many times.

Regards,
Marius

Re: Heinkel He 60 losses
 

Hi Marius,

thanks for info!

Regards

Robert

Re: Heinkel He 60 losses
 

Stig, you pointed something interesting. The loss on 2 Oct 1944 was a Do 24 coded KK+LC. The Wnr 2212 was also coded KK+LC but was lost as you say on 9 May 1944. I just get confused between the two losses.

So the Wnr of this loss is unknown to me, but I maintain a Do 24 was shot down at this date and place.

Regards

Laurent

Re: Heinkel He 60 losses
 

Hi Laurent

As a matter of chance I found another KK+LC, WNr 1033!
No idea of course if this is "your" KK+LC.... :)
Reported as belonging to Seenotstaffel 7 which WAS based in Greece at the time! So what do you say about that??
Cheers
Stig

Re: Heinkel He 60 losses
 

Hi laurent

The translation is

"09/05/44 gezonken na aanvaring met mijnenveger. Inzittenden vermist"
"09/05/44 sunk after a collision with a minesweper.
Inboards missing"

Regards Peter van Gogh

P.S. have you checkts this site ? http://www.dornier24.com/

Re: Heinkel He 60 losses
 

Hello Seaplanes and Marius,

I must admit that I'm confused regarding loss of He.59D M7+XL.
According to Marius it went missing on 3.IX and then it reappeared on 6.IX as shot down over Gdynia.
According to Seaplanes it was destroyed on 4.IX near Hela.

As far as I know (from the Polish claims) it seems that version of Seaplanes is more reliable since I do not know any claim from 6.IX over Gdynia (but this does not mean that there was no any. It is possible that I've missed this claim). So could you be so kind and once again explain which version is true?!

Also (correct me if I'm mistaken) Luftwaffe lost 6 seaplanes in IX.1939:
3 He.60 (2.IX, 11.IX and 22.IX)
2 He.59 (4(6?).IX, 26.IX)
1 He.114 (crashed in the sea NE off Hallerowo on 11.IX)
Any information regarding damaged planes?!

BTW. What was He.60 (K6+QH) doing over Kivik?!

Best regards from Warsaw,
Andrzej

Re: Heinkel He 60 losses
 

If you are looking at the floatplanes only, your list is nearly complete apart from a second He 114 W.Nr. 2571 of 1./506 lost 17.09.39 at Pillau when landing with tailwind. The two crewmembers were rescued uninjured.
In addition to the floatplanes, Luftwaffe lost no fewer than 6 Dornier Do 18 flying boats during September 1939.

Re: Heinkel He 60 losses
 

Hello Seaplanes,

Thank you! :)
Do you have further info on Do.18 flying boats?! That is dates and causes of the loss?!

Thanks in advance!

Re: Heinkel He 60 losses
 

The Do 18 losses are as follows:
03.09.39 2./106 Do 18D-2 W.Nr. 723 M2+IK 100% Baltrum
07.09.39 2./606 Do 18D-3 W.Nr. 833 8L+WK 100% Hörnum
12.09.39 2./106 Do 18D-2 W.Nr. 717 M2+EK 100% North Sea
13.09.39 2./106 Do 18D-2 W.Nr. 718 M2+LK 100% Ameland
26.09.39 2./506 Do 18D-3 W.Nr. 731 M7+YK 100% North Sea
29.09.39 2./106 Do 18D-0 W.Nr. 668 20% Norderney.

Re: Heinkel He 60 losses
 

Thank you Seaplanes :)

Did all of them were lost due to failures or some of them were caused by enemy action?!

Re: Heinkel He 60 losses
 

Hi,

I have:

29.09.39 Do 18 2/106 Nordeney damaged 20% - by night landing hit the sandbank
26.09.39 Do 18 2/506 Quadrat 3440 emergency landed due to enemy fire, 4 POWs.

Regards

Robert

Re: Heinkel He 60 losses
 

Hi Seaplanes

I have in the stkfz base Do18 D-0 wnr668 as D-ASYA

Regards
Peter van Gogh

Re: Heinkel He 60 losses
 

Hi,

I found another one:

06.09.39 Gen.d.Lw.b.Ob.d.M. bei Gdingen durch Flak abgeschossen He 59 100% four MIA. I wonder if anybody could add some additional details about this one?

Regards

Robert

Re: Heinkel He 60 losses
 

Robert,

see posts #13 and #15.

Regards,
Marius

Re: Heinkel He 60 losses
 

Marius,

I`m really confused. I don`t know when this plane was shot down? On the 03,04 or 06.09? In the evening (polish AA gave the time of the this clame at 21.00 hours) and you wrote in the morning? The Verlustmeldung tells by Gdynia and the polish AA artillery said over Hel?

Regards

Robert

Re: Heinkel He 60 losses
 

Robert,

it was the second aircraft in the formation of 3./506. Time of the attack: 4.00-4.20 hours in the morning of the 6.9. The He 59 crashed 200 m to the south of Hel.
As I read in Polish books the 2.MDAplot shot this aircraft down nearby Hel at appr. 4.30 hours. This is correct! All other Polish claims on the 3.9. or 4.9 or 5.9. are just mistakes.

Regards,
Marius

Re: Heinkel He 60 losses
 

Hi Marius,

so 06.09.39 early morning.
Thanks.

Robert

Re: Heinkel He 60 losses
 

Hello Marius and Robert,

(1) If He.59 was destroyed on 6.IX/4.20 what was the source of the false information about 4.IX?! I suppose that aircraft which went missing on 3.IX was found?! What type of aircraft it was?
(2) I have four more destroyed aircrafts which I can not identify:
1.IX - Plane crashed in Wejherowo near cement plant. Two pilots were found. Both were already dead. Type of aircraft unknown (probably reconnaissance).
4.IX - Plane damaged over Rumia airport went down between Reda and Rekowo. Crew taken POW. Type of aircraft unknown.
6.IX/21.00 - Aircraft shot down over Hela by kpt. Dziubiński. Plane went down in the see. Patrolboat was sent to the place of the crash and collected from the water pilot's glove, collar and pieces of the wing (probably reconnaissance or hydroplane).
7.IX - Minesweeper Jaskołka spotted enemy plane diving when sailing in the Puck Bay. One bomb was released from 600 m and exploded near the ship. Though plane dived to the see and huge explosion was heard and seen [probably fuel explosion when plane hit the shallow bottom of the bay]. Pilot's glove and life jacket were collected from the water (presumed to be a bomber, though doubtful to me).
Can anyone help and identify destroyed planes?!

Regards,
Andrzej

Re: Heinkel He 60 losses
 

Hello,

I've noticed some discrepancies between data given by Marius in his book about Luftwaffe in Poland and data presented in this topic about seaplanes. According to Marius there were:
Shot down - 3 seaplanes (2 in East, 1 in West)
Destroyed - 10 seaplanes (4 in East, 6 in West)
Damaged (20-59%) - 5 seaplanes

The problem is that in this topic there are only 8 seaplanes mentioned as lost due to accidents:
2.IX He.60D (Pillau) 1./Kü.Fl.Gr. 506
3.IX Do.18 (Baltrum) 2./Kü.Fl.Gr. 106
7.IX Do.18 (Hörnum) 2./Kü.Fl.Gr. 606
11.IX He.60E (Pillau) 1./Kü.Fl.Gr. 506
12.IX Do.18 (North Sea) 2./Kü.Fl.Gr. 106
13.IX Do.18 (Ameland) 2./Kü.Fl.Gr. 106
17.IX He.114 (Pillau) 1./Kü.Fl.Gr. 506
26.IX He.59D (Norderney) 3./Kü.Fl.Gr. 106

So we are missing 2 destroyed seaplanes (1 in East and 1 in West). Anyone knows when and where those 2 missing planes were destroyed?!


Also Seaplanes mentioned that He.60 which was interned in Sweden on 22.IX was from 1./Kü.Fl.Gr. 306, but it's markings (K6+QH) indicates that as far as I know the plane was in fact from 1./Kü.Fl.Gr. 406. Can anyone help and solve this discrepancy?!


Best regards,
Andrzej