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Re: Photos 2-12
Me 262
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=190082550227 Misc. http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=330088221657 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=190081811932 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=160084692521 http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=160084676777 Usual disclaimer, Ed |
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Gentlemen,
in this selection there are two photos that claim to show Hans-Joachim Marseille and the rudder of his aircraft ( # 140 085 020 061 ). I don't think that this is correct. Neither can I identify the pilot wearing sunglasses and a life vest as Oblt. Marseille nor has the rudder of the Bf 109 G got anything to do with Marseille. It shows much rather the victory tally of one of the Experten of III./JG 77, most likely that of Hptm. Kurt Ubben, whose a/c showed a very similar marking on the rudder while Ubben was still serving in the East. So dear bidders, don't go berserk for these two shots in the vain hope that you might have found some missing link in the Marseille history. Then there is a photo # 140 084 994 901 that purportedly shows Gordon Gollob and Gerhard Michalski. Again this captioning seems rather dubious - for once, the pilot standing on the left side is without any doubt Hptm. Kurt Ubben of III./JG 77 whereas the one on the right bears some resemblance with Gordon Gollob but I'm not yet prepeared to buy it for that. Conclusion: Whatever the late grandpa of this seller did in Africa, judging from these two photos he was not with 3./JG 27 or Hans-Joachim Marseille. In fact all these photos were taken after Marseille's death. In case I haven't done it before: Dear Ed West, many thanks for your relentless and unselfish work. Your posts are the highlight when I start my PC in the morning. Carry on the good work ! Regards Jochen Prien |
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Dear Dr. Prien,
Thank you for your kind words. To the frustrated individual: I can stop posting at any time. Regards, Ed West |
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Dear Ed,
Please, keep up your excellent work: it is an immense pleasure to discover genuine gems in your Photos posts, gems we would most probabaly never know about if not grouped by your attention. What's better then share knowledge? Certainly not to keep those pictures hidden as they would, but for your unselfish work. Keep it up and best regards Marc |
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Sure does look like Gollob to me. Maybe it is his stunt double?
Thanks Ed, your the best! Keep it up! Regards, Mike |
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Never posted before but I just wanted to say I also check these posts every day. So thanks Ed!!!! I enjoy them!
Regards, Roland ps. I think if people are willing to pay that kind of money they will find these pictures anyway.... |
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I agree.
Ed |
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We understand, wrackplatz ... but not again ... the same discussion we had months (or a year?) ago and Jochen Prien talked about his so - called fictional "connections" to Sudek13 ... unfortunately the thread is deleted (it seems).
Best wishes Rasmussen |
Re: stop attacks
Let's stop the personal attacks in this thread. The subject is the photos in Ed West's listing. Don't make me lock this thread.
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Ed,
I have'nt posted for some time, but I have to ask you to please keep up the good work. While Jochen Prien looks for your post in the morning I do the same in the evening. I am continually fascinated by your finds (where do you come by all those Fairey Battles.....) my particular interest being those misc items including the unit and personal emblems that continue to appear. Once again - many thanks (don't listen to the disbelievers!) |
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Andy,
Thank you. I appreciate it. Ed |
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i m with Mr Prien here, probably not Marseille...
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Is this Gerhard Michalski (73)?
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140084994901
I do believe the man on the right is Gollob, but are we sure the guy on the left is Michalski –hard to tell from the photos I have –yet there’s something familiar about that face. Thanks, Rob Romero |
Ooops!!!
I should read the posts more carefully, Prien indicates the man on the left is Kurt Ubben (110)!
Soo Sorry! |
I Know I Shouldn't But....
May I propose a slightly different theory here?
a well-financed bidder does not need a search aid - with his money, he can afford to acquire (or hire) some very sophisticated search aids. I'm sure he finds stuff that Ed - and many of us here - miss. I seriously doubt that Ed has any "special powers" or secret tools he uses (and I mean no disrespect to Ed - I for one am very grateful!) I know I've found quite a few gems that Ed has missed - and had Sudek trample me many times, in spite of the fact that Ed (nor anyone else) seemed to have made note of the auction. I have noted that these "hidden gems" tend to go for a lot less though when they are not as well known. I would suggest that Sudek does not look at Ed's posts and go "oh, good! Another one!" Instead, he looks at Ed's posts (and I'm sure he is aware of them) and goes "oh no! another good one spotted! Now every bidder will try and jump on this one!" Perhaps it is not that Sudek uses Ed as a spotter, but rather that Sudek would prefer to see Ed and his posts disappear. After all, Ed points out some pretty good auctions - and this increases attention to them, and increased attention is going to drive up the prices. And this means Sudek will have to dig a little deeper. Sudek (and others like him) will continue to steal our history, but at least with the light of day played upon the process, they will have to pay a little more for it. I doubt it would hurt Sudek if Ed (and anyone else like him) were gagged. Indeed I would suggest it is in Sudek's best interest to permanently stifle Ed and anyone else who would make it easier for those of us of the "great unwashed" to gain access to what once was the playground of the well financed. For too long, our history, the history that our fathers and forefathers fought and died for, has been locked away. With the advent of internet auctions such as eBay, we are unfortunately still locked out of the club, but at least we get a glimpse of what before we never would have seen. So keep publishing, Ed. Maybe your fine efforts will finally drain Sudek's pockets dry, so that perhaps the playing field might become just a little more level. Paul |
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Well, everything it seems is a double edged sword. If it were not for publications like Luftwaffe im Focus, how many photos would end up in the dustbin or in a drawer where others have forgotten them or never been asked if anyone could see them? While eBay is responsible for driving up prices, it is also an opportunity for the "great unwashed' to at least glimpse photos that they may otherwise never have seen.
It's a shame that money is such an issue. I, for one, am just glad I can see something instead of nothing. Should everyone have more money than they need? Should we all be rich? Certainly, the poor who have too little to eat should get some help from everyone who can help them. For myself, I would say just be thankful for what you can do. Regards to all, Ed |
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Hi,
any idea for the unit of these WGr 21 equiped Bf 109G-6 ? http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...m=180084824625 Thnak in advance Von Alles |
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3185 Euro for 5 pieces of paper. Are there hungry people on this planet? Seems not for some peoples. And this for photos that are unpulished and has lost the german copyrights = public domain.
Stupid world. |
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Thank you, Pat, for your kind words. It is Ruy Horta whi is giving me this opportunity to share. Thank you Ruy!
Best regards, Ed |
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Hi RLM-76,
What is the full name of D. T.? Is it confidential? I would wish to know the backgroud story behind this recurring topic. Regards Marc |
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Hi to all,
it's a really hot thread again. First I also want to thank Ed for his work, I start with his lists in the day - like Mr. Prien. Now I want to say some words about some statements here. Quote:
LIF magazine. He can use my complete collection for publishing without payment or something like that. I get my magazine for free - that's it! I only want to see my photos in a perfect print and with some new informations. We all know that collecting photos is becoming a more and more exclusive and expensive hobby. You can have a look in every LIF edition, you will find 50 and more former unpublished photos. If a publisher would plan to start a new magazine like that without a big and very good sorted collection, it would be impossible without help. The prices of photos rise and rise, you find collectors for every boring or unspectacular photo. Because fighter photos, emblems and other highlights became so expensive in the last years, many people start to collect photos of trainers, Ju 52 and so on. Now some of these photos are very expensive too. I think that's the consequence of ebay members like sudek and some others (me too). 5 years ago nobody was willing to pay more than 50 or maybe 100 Eur for a single photo. I know where I'm speaking about - I'm also collecting German fighters - that's my ruin ;-) But don't worry, we all have enough photos for the next 100 issues and more. Quote:
next 1000 years. We have to live with this new circumstances. My only fear is that it will become hard for publishers and authors to get new and unpublished photos for their work in future. Now I want to end, please excuse my bad English. I look forward for the next statements here. Kind regards, Sven. |
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Gentlemen,
We needed to respect us the opinion of all of the members of this excellent site. If somebody doesn't agree, everything well, but without attacks. Mr. Jochen Prien manifested his/her opinion and ready. In my opinion, the guy of the picture is not H.J.Marseille. Mr. Von Alles asked a question on the unit of Bf 109G-6 equipped with WGr 21 and it didn't receive any attention. I agree with Mr. John Beaman, it is necessary to stop the attacks. Ed. please not to your excellent work, we needed ourselves him! Hugs to all, E. Brettas www.avesdobrasil.com.br Bird of Brazil in Watercolor |
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Stephen |
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Hi Stephen,
Thanks for the lead! Marc |
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Hi to the moderators,
do we have censorship in this forum? I think it's not OK to delete statements of some members here. It doesn't matter if we agree with some opinions or not, but I think to delete some states in definitely not the right way. If my critical words are not OK for you now, you can censor them too... Also it's not OK to give personal informations about people like Stephen did. Günter. |
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Günther,
I partly agree with you. I don't welcome selective deleting of posts. If something is not correct, than please state so and/or delete the complete thread. Choosing which post should stay and which one should be deleted of a thread is indeed censorship. I don't feel that you should protect DT's name. He is a public figure by choice and should not hide behind a Ebay-name. cheers, John. |
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When someone makes a personal attack (luckily it's rare), I don't think it has any place here - isn't the forum supposed to be an enjoyable thing to be part of? |
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Hi Nick,
it's not OK to attack another person - right. But we don't know if there is a truth behind the statements which were posted here. Everybody has the chance to clear such reproaches or to say something against. But if you delete some single statements you influence the complete thread. That's my opinion. I like the publishing work of Mr. Prien very much but we all read some strange states on this board in the past. I think that's a fact that we can find photos of sudeks archive in the JFV series. That's OK for me. And we also could follow a link to another forum in a former discussion here. There a member of sudeks team told who is allowed to use the archive and who is not. So it's possible that some people made agreements with sudek himself. And if this is true I think that it's immoral - or let me better say - very questionable. Regards, Günter. |
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Hi John and Günther,
I'm far away to read all the dicussion on this board, but I often read the interessting longer ones. This discussion too! I'm agree with you, censorship in this way are not okay. If someone (like the moderator) selectiv delet posts, the whole discussion makes no sense and give a totaly wrong "picture" (on this board like on other boards). I don't like this way, sorry! A discussionboard is a discussionboard and not a statementboard. Panzerscheibe |
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
What has he actually done wrong? If he broke the law, tell the police. If he's breaking the auction rules, tell ebay. If you don't like capitalism, this forum probably isn't the best place to fight it either. No one has offered any evidence of Jochen Prien actually doing anything wrong. If he or any other author makes an effort to obtain the best possible photos for a book, what is actually wrong with that provided they are obtained honestly? Also, huge numbers of photos feature in more than one personal collection or public archive. |
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Quote:
I have to say that you do not see the 'global' picture concerning research and the attempts of researchers to get their work into print. Ever before the advent of the internet, researchers were networking with each other, exchanging views, information, contacts and photographs. That is undisputed fact, and I can give you a long list of pre-internet contacts if you so wish. I also know that in pre-internet times, certain researchers were not prepared to work with other researchers (no names, no pack drill on this one!). That is fact. That is also life, because not everyone gets on well. Now if sudek wants to allow certain researchers/authors to make use of some of the information/photos in his collection, that's his prerogative, and ultimately, readers of certain books will reap the benefit of seeing good stuff in print. Is there really anything wrong with that? No there isn't. Is it immoral, or very questionable? No it isn't. You need to get the whole thing in proper perspective. And I'll answer the inevitable question that is likely to surface. Go look at my two books on the Messerschmitt 110 in the Classic series and you will see photos in them from sudek. I make no apologies for stating that. sudek has provided assistance in getting photos into published works, and that should be applauded. I know of certain people (as do others) whose attitude over the years has been to gather stuff in and then never to let a soul near their collection/archive - that again is their prerogative (but they would still approach you and try to snaffle stuff from yours). What I have written above is all fact. It is the truth. Some people may not like it, but that's the way it is. |
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Hi John,
How true indeed. Like anything else in life, it all depends on the individual and what he/she would like to do with "their" stuff. I, myself, have been hoarding good primary wartime private snaps because I have plans to do something with this stuff that I have worked very hard to obtain. Whether that happens or not is a good question. Father time will be the judge of that but my intentions are good. I have also been known to be generous and share my stuff the odd time with researchers and noted authors. That being said, I've come to dislike the vacum cleaners out there that suck all this stuff up and never share it. Obviously that's their choice, but the learning curve for the rest of us will be that much longer. Just like noted authorities not being able to share information etc between themselves, "we" are the ones that suffer, not them. I've learned from the best but a good friend of mine taught me a valuable lesson and that is life is way too short to be playing these games. So, if Sudek want's to pick and choose who he gives his blessing to, well, then that's they way it goes but there's one thing to bare in mind, you can't take this stuff with you to the other side. Stephen |
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Nick,
Have you ever met one that said otherwise? ;) Stephen |
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Hi John Vasco,
sounds good what you are telling us enthusiast. Looks like a few guys of you researchers / photo collectors standing on the right side and a few on the wrong :-). That's the world, money are all and moral nothing, - lucky to have not the money for bidding. But don't forget, wind could quickly change the direction and may be you stay one day on the "wrong" side. Have fun Panzerscheibe |
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Hi John,
thank you for your informations it's good to here the state of a man who is working together with sudek. I'm sorry, I don't know your books, I've never heard about your work before. Maybe I missed something until know, please excuse me. I can't believe that a man who is spending millions of EUR/USD for a great photo collection is supporting some authors and publishers for free. Why should he do it? Just for fun or as a hobby? OK, maybe I'm wrong and we should be happy that such collectors share their gathered photos with us. I have not enough cash to buy every interesting book so I have to look for new and former unpublished material in few books or magazines I can get. Günter. |
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John is an author who's special interest is for example in Bf 110 and
Zerstörerverbände. He is one of the people "standing on the right side" and before sudek started bidding at ebay he was one of the enthusiasts who bid hard to get photos for their publishing work. Now he need not bid any more because he has access to sudeks archive. OK, I won't tell more because I don't want that my post will be deleted again. |
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The two original wrackplatz were soft deleted by me.
Any personal attack, which the moderator team thinks goes too far, will be deleted. This is a policy of the TOCH! forum and has been stated many times in the past, hence should not come as a surprise. What constitutes going too far? That's a subjective matter, but once decided upon we are unanimous in the action. The issue may be valid, it may even be matter for a discussion on this forum, but the way it is conducted is essential. It was my call that in this case Wrackplatz had crossed the (MY) boundary. Let me state that the soft deletion of two posts was the only action taken. Call it what you want, censorship even, but TOCH! is a moderated forum. Sometimes everyone will agree with our actions as moderator (and even host), but on occasion some or many will disagree. Bottom-line is that we need to moderate to keep the general atmosphere positive and constructive. The main gripe against TOCH! in the past was it's laissez faire policy. Now, from time to time, we have to face the accusation of censorship, which proofs you can't please everyone all the time. Do I like deleting posts, no. It does leave ugly gaps and most of the time hurt feelings. However that can't be helped. Locking or deleting a thread leaves all parties offended or hurt. There is little leeway for the moderator to act. In this particular case there was a moderator action and (even) a moderating error. One can be turned back, the other cannot, but both must be accepted as fact. The combination of events make this more of an exeption than a rule. (Edit) Note that RLM-76 was not censored, but choose to (soft)delete his own post. His action may have been triggered by the ongoing discussion, but as far as I know wasn't forced by any moderator. I suggest we keep our focus and discuss the content of these images. HOWEVER I agree that TOCH! is a forum with a wide scope for DISCUSSION. As long as that discussion is focused, constructive and free of personal attack. If you wish to discuss eBay, as related to our interest of WW2 aviation, feel free to do so within these boundaries. You will be surprised how far you can go as long as you remain civil and use your common sense. |
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