JG51 Victories
 

20Aug44
Ofw Joachim Bussert Stab III 16:36 Boston III (Douglas A-20 1GMTAP KBF)

14Sep44
Uffz Helmut Gloeckner Stabs Staffel
14:26 Boston III (Douglas A-20 1GMTAP KBF)
14:29 Boston III (Douglas A-20 1GMTAP KBF)
Lt Gustav Sturm Stabs Staffel
14:31 Boston III (Douglas A-20 1GMTAP KBF)

Re: JG51 Victories
 

22Sep44 Losses for 1 GMTAP KBF
Douglas A-20 Lt Zhilenkov
Douglas A-20 M. Lt Baranov
Douglas A-20 M. Lt Thepermiaks(?)

JG51 claims for 22Sep44
Hptm Joachim Brendel Stab III 10:27 Boston III
Oblt ? III 10:28 Boston III
Uffz Hoppe Stab III 10:25 Yak-7
Ofw Friedrich Simon 9. 10:29 Boston III
Uffz Moelders 10. 10:30 Boston III
Ofw Josef Gaebl 10. 10:31 Boston III

The 22nd fight doesn't say if there was another unit with the 1 GMTAP KBF flying Boston III's. It also doen't have how many planes were damaged and doesn't say what IAP was doing escort. If you want to read about the 1 GMTAP KBF go to www.bellabs.ru/51/ . Maybe a Russian member can give more about the 22 Sep 44.

Re: JG51 Victories
 

Good Stuff Nokose!!! :D

Keep it up,

Rob Romero

Re: JG51 Victories
 

In The Sky Bombers by G.A. Osipov (Shchelkovo series 2003)
Barbarossa The Air Battle by Christer Bergstrom
08Aug41 15:40(Moscow)-
57 BAP (1st mission) on Yelnya 27 SB (11 lost) 1 Bf-109 claimed

JFV 6/II by Jochen Prien
Stab III/JG51 (listed in Barbarossa as II/JG51)
Hptm Richard Leppla DB-3 (32) 15:25 3km W of Jelnja
Lt Karl-Heinz Weber DB-3 (7) 15:25
Hptm Richard Leppla DB-3 (33) 15:26
IV/JG51
11. Lt Georg Seelman DB-3 (28) 15:08
10. Oblt Johann Knauth DB-3 (12) 15:20
11. Lt Karl Schnecker SB-2 (3) 15:21
11. Lt Georg Seelmann DB-3 (29) 15:29
10. Obfw Adolf Borchers DB-3 (12) 15:30
12. Obfr Ernst Weismann DB-3 (3) 15:35
12. Lt Herbert Huppertz DB-3 (30) 15:35
12. Lt Herbert Huppertz DB-3 (31) 15:38
(No Bf-109's lost)

Re: JG51 Victories
 

09Aug41
57 BAP (3AE) (3rd mission) 8 SB (5 lost) claimed 1 Bf-109

JFV 6/I by Jochen Prien
12./JG51
Lt Herbert Huppertz SB-3 (33) 19:00
Uffz Helmut Heerdt SB-3 (2) 19:00
Lt Heinz Baer SB-3 (55) 19:00
Obfhr Ernst Weismann SB-3 (4) 19:03
Obfw Heinrich Hoffman SB-3 (37) 19:05
(Lt Huppertz's Bf-109 shot down)

10Aug41
57 BAP (Night missions)
SB flown bt St. Lt Georgiy Alekseyevich Osipov [author of "In the Sky Bombers"] returned to base with heavy damage

JFV 6/I
9./JG51 Obfw Edmund Wagner DB-3 (17) 19:15
(possibly Osipov's SB)

Re: JG51 Victories
 

JFV 9/II by Jochen Prien
Stab II/JG51 Hptm Hartmann Grasser LaGG-3 (69) 12:05 PlQu 47524
StabII/ JG51 Lt Guenther Ruebell LaGG-3 (37) 12:25 PlQu 47552

Losses II/JG51
5/JG51 N.N. Luftkampf, Rshew 100% Wknr 9564

Source: airforce.ru
LaGG-3 5GIAP Mayor Grigorii Denisovich Onufrienko (29 victories, Total for war) shot down by Grasser
LaGG-3 5GIAP Lt Ibragim Shagiakhmedovich Bikmukhametov returned to base after ramming Bf-109 (Wknr. 9541) claim made by Ruebell

Stalin's Falcons by Tomas Polak
List Onufrienko claiming a Bf-109 on the 04Aug42
Bikmuhametov one Bf-109(10th) shot down and one Bf-109 (11th) rammed

Re: JG51 Victories
 

Was a Bf 109 indeed rammed and if so -whose was it?

If a ramming was involved, how could Ruebell claim it as a victory?

Rob Romero

Re: JG51 Victories
 

The Wknr for the one claimed as rammed is different for the Bf-109F-2 lost in the dogfight in JFV. Maybe Ruebell was attacking the LaGG-3 when this incident happen and saw it going down. It seems that 5GIAP claimed three Bf-109's in this fight but only 1 is listed. Hopefully someone has info on the Wknr listed as rammed.

Re: JG51 Victories
 

Source: Barbarossa- The Air Battle by Christer Bergstroem
Lists 18 SB of the 39SBAP attacking the Bug River bridge on 22Jun41. All 18 lost. He lists 2 to H. Baer, 4 to Hoefemeier and 6 to other JG51 pilots.

JFV 6/I by Jochen Prien
22Jun41
1. Oblt Heinz Baer
SB-2 (19) 09:40
SB-2 (20) 09:45
1. Obfw Heinrich Hoefemeier
SB-2 (1) 09:40
SB-2 (2) 09:42
SB-2 (3) 09:43 Kossow-Siedlce
SB-2 (4) 09:45 ""
3. Oblt Heinrich Kraft
SB-2 (6) 09:55
SB-2 (7) 10:02
3. Oblt Erich Viebahn
SB-2 (1) 09:57
SB-2 (2) 09:58
3. Uffz Egon Grosse
SB-2 (1) 09:57
SB-2 (2) 09:59
3. Uffz Wilhelm Theimann
SB-2 (2) 10:00
3. Uffz Herbert Bareuther
SB-2 (1) 10:01
3. Lt Fritz Duenkel
SB-2 (1) 10:03

JG 51 Victories
 

Hello Nokose

Excellent and informative post as usual! Just one observation: could it have been that Oberfeldwebel Heinrich Höfemeier (96 victories, RK, killed in action 7 August 1943) of 1./JG 51 was wounded in battle with these SB twin-engined bombers in Bf 109 F-2 "White 5" (W.Nr. 5423) east of Siedlce on 22 June 1941? I have the impresson that this was the case or was it in some later combat?

Horrido!

Leo

Re: JG51 Victories
 

In Christer Bergstroem's book "Barbarossa The Air Battle" (I liked this one better then BCRS#1) it did mention that he was wounded in the arm during this dogfight.

Re: JG51 Victories
 

22Jun41 Kobrin area
123IAP lost 9 I-153 during day.

JFV6/I
IV/JG51
11. Oblt. Franz Hahn
I-153 (8) 03:40 W of Kobryn
I-153 (9) 03:45 ""
I-153 (10) 03:47 " "
(Source allaces.ru shows 123IAP c.o. Major Boris Nikolayich Surin (KIA) approx 05:00 Moscow time which is possibly the only victory by Hahn [IMHO])
11. Lt Georg Seelman I-153 (4) 07:05
11. Fw Erwin Janke I-153 (2) 07:05
10. Oblt Johann Knauth I-153 (2) 07:06
10. Lt Bernd Gallowitsch I-153 (6) 07:10 W of Kobryn
10. Uffz Willi Hegner I-153 (1) 07:12 W of Kobryn

12. Oblt Karl-Gottfried Nordmann I-153 (10) 10:10 W of Kobryn
(source: Barbarossa the Air Battle by Christer Bergstroem lists this as I-153 Lt Petr S. Ryabtsev who rammed a Bf-109. No losses of Bf-109's)

JFV 9/II
Stab/JG53
Maj. Guenther Frhr von Maltzahn I-153 (16) 07:17 Kobryn area
Lt Franz Schiehs I-153 (1) 07:25 W of Kobryn
Oblt Wilfried Pufaht I-153 (1) 07:28 W of Kobryn

Re: JG51 Victories
 

20Feb45

Hptm. Joachim Brendel III/JG51 Pillau
Yak-3 Groupe Normandie-Nieman Lt Pierre Bleton (POW)

Source: Stalin's Falcons by Tomas Polak with Christopher Shores.

I don't have anymore info on this one

Re: JG51 Victories
 

The 355th FG lost two P-51s on September 18, 1944 on Frantic VII, near Kotje.

One was Vigna who hit a tree near the airfield chasing a 109 and the other wa was Thompson accidently shooting down Peters further SW.

Di JG 51 claim either one and what were their losses/damaged?

Regards,

Bill

Re: JG51 Victories
 

I believe Vigna was downed by a German, was not he? He reputedly landed at Nasielsk to see his victim. I have heard a story that a few years ago a German pilot visited the place of the crash but no further details nor if it is true story.
No known claims anyway.

Re: JG51 Victories
 

Franek - I just re-read the Macr 'witness report' by Thompson and it reads quite differently in that Thompson and Peters were shooting at a 109 on the deck, and Vigna flying Peters' wing flew too low and hit a tree -

Now at the end of the day who is to know whether an unseen 109 was behind all of them and Thompson assumed it was an accident... so I can't say for sure that Vigna was NOT shot down.

This is the situation in which Thompson accidently shot down Peters..when he crossed between Thompson and the 109 being chased - realized what he had done and the 109 got away.

Regards,

Bill

Re: JG51 Victories
 

Leo - off topic but I would solicit your help in two loose ends for the 355th.

On May 19, 1944 Hudson Packard chased a Do 217 into a cloud deck near Gardelegen at 1255. According to J-1127 he collided with a "me 110 (training)" and went in 2 miles east of Mieste (?).

Do you have any details regarding the Me 110?

On August 16, 1944 acccording to Tony Woods/Les Butler LW awards list Uffr Probst of 2./JG3 rammed John Riggs at low altitude, killing Riggs.

According to report J-1955, Probst was credited for the ramming but they described his unit as "8 (heavy) Udet" and suffered 90% damage to his 109.

Do you have any details or corrections to either?

Regards and many thanks for your help.

Bill

Re: JG51 Victories
 

Bill
I am certain I have heard the story of a victorious German airman landing at Nasielsk and visiting the crashsite, but as you know we cannot be certain of anything. The fact is that there are no known German claims for Mustangs. I will ask Mike Fly to have a closer look.
Best wishes
Franek

Re: JG51 Victories
 

Franek - thanks. We know for certain that Peters was shot up accidentally by Thompson, landed nearby and died of wounds while the Wermacht kept Polish farmers from helping him.

We know for certain Vigna was flying Peters wing and we know for certain Thompson was chasing a 109 when Peters cut in front.

We can assume that it was Vigna that Thompson saw crash and explode while they chased the 109 because Peters landed under control and was seen by a Polish farmer to die in the cockpit - but Mustang was intact.

I believ that the Vigna crash was near the airfield at Katne which leads me to suspect the Nasielsk site was where Peters landed, as the MACR only discusses 'last seen' versus seen to land intact.

Regards,

Bill

Re: JG51 Victories
 

10.06.43:

VVS attack airfield Sescha, 3rd wave consist of 9 Pe-2 from 6 bap with escort of 2 La-5 of 522 iap made navigational mistake and went out of target incorrect direction, came under attack of large group of Fw190 and all shot down.

10./JG 51 and 12./JG 51 pilots claimed 14 victories, 2 x LaGG-5 and 12 x Pe-2:

12./JG 51 claimed 6 victories, all by Ofw. Hans Pfahler.
Fw. Rudolf Wagner.
10 claimed 5 victories:
3 by Oblt. Horst-Günther von Fassong, 2 by Fw. Rudolf Wagner, 1 by Fw. Kurt Dombacher, 1 by Ltn. Westner, 1 by Uffz. Barsch.

Both LaGG-5 claims confirmed (Lt.Oparin, 522 iap, MiA, and Ml.Lt.Ishimskij, 522 iap, MiA). 9 of 12 Pe-2 confirmed (including squadron commander Major I.Ageyev, 6 bap).

Re: JG51 Victories
 

Eugen,
Do you know what units and losses were in the first 2 waves? There appears to be another dogfight going on in the same area and time. Fw. Wilhelm Milder 12./JG51 claimed two Il-2 at 19:20 and 19:36 in 34 222. The 15(Span.)/JG51 were in that area from 19:04-19:20 and claimed two Il-2 and 5 LaGG-3.

Re: JG51 Victories
 

There were 2 waves of Il-2 formations, and 2 waves of Pe-2. Pe-2's losses were only in 3rd wave. Its only I can say at moment.

Re: JG51 Victories
 

One of the claims for 10Jun43 on Tony Woods list for Pfahler is a duplicate so there is 11 claims for Pe-2's instead of 12. If you look at the time, location and altitude it might help in seeing the overclaim or possible shared claim.
10. Fw Kurt Dombacher Pe-2 19:03 34333 (3000m)
12. Ofw Hans Pfahler LaGG-5 19:05 34413 (2800m)
12. Ofw Hans Pfahler Pe-2 19:07 34412(2700m)
10. Fw Rudolf Wagner Pe-2 19:09 34274 (2300m)
12. Ofw Hans Pfahler Pe-2 19:09 34274 (1900m)
10. Oblt Horst-Guenther von Fassong LaGG-5 19:11 34281 (2000m)
10. Lt Westner Pe-2 19:13 34413 (1000m)
12. Ofw Hans Pfahler Pe-2 19:15 34233 (500m)
10. Oblt Horst-Guenther von Fassong Pe-2 19:16 34232 (1000m)
10. Uffz Barsch Pe-2 19:17 34231 (100m)
12. Ofw Hans Pfahler Pe-2 19:18 35893 (100m)
10. Fw rudolf Wagner Pe-2 19:19 35861 (100m)
10. Oblt Horst-Guenther von Fassong Pe-2 19:20 35833 (100m)

Re: JG51 Victories
 

Bill
Mike suggests that there could have been some misidentification or misinterpretation by the locals, so your version may be correct. He will check accounts published in Poland. Both Mustangs crashed close to Nasielsk, Vigna NW and Peters W of. Airfield is at Chrcynne, SE Nasielsk (still active). Distances are less than 10 miles. It is possible that the German pilot tried to get to Modlin airfield and their anti-aircraft defences.
Now, how about German losses?

Re: JG51 Victories
 

Franek - thanks as usual for added details. if you will PM me I will send you my Awards lists and my losses lists.

Henry Brown- Yellow Flight Leader Borax Squadron (made up of 355/361 and 4FG ships) was awarded a Destroyed and a damaged 109 near Warsaw plus a damaged Ju-87 on the airfield.

John Elder -357FS CO was awarded a destroyed 109 NW of Warsaw.

Ralph Michelena -358FS was awarded a destroyed and a damaged 109

Marcell Webb was awarded a damaged 109 near Warsaw.

All of the engagements seem to be between 1245 and 1300 (British) on the NW to SE target track to and over Warsaw.

Brown was in Lead Squadron (Borax- Marshall CO), Elder (357) and Lenfest (354) were leading the two squadrons covering the middle and Sluga was leading 358 at the rear.

The Me 109s were reported as flying in 'gaggles' of no more than six and attempting to use cloud cover to slip into the formations. Most of the 109s were attempting to attack from high rear where the 358 were, and the rest came from 12 O'clock high where first Borax, then 357FS engaged briefly.

Major Marshall had issued strict orders to make no more than one pass and return because of fuel reserve concerns.

Brown's combat film on the damaged Me 109 was severe from the looks of it as he hit the 109 in a slight off angle head on pass, then snapped around to take the trail 109, then went to the deck (as usual) and strafed the airfield. The film showed strikes from nose to tail on the lead ship but he was too busy to turn and follow up.

Regards,
Bill

Re: JG51 Victories
 

26Jul41
50 SBAP lost 6 Pe-2 and 122 IAP lost 1 MiG-3 to II/ and III/JG51.
Source: Barbarossa The Air Battle by Christer Bergstrom

JFV 6/I by Jochen Prien
4. Lt Georg-Peter Eder Pe-2 (8) 18:43
4. Fw Otto Schultz Pe-2 (10) 18:45
4. Lt Horst Walther Pe-2 (2) 18:50
4. Fw Otto Schultz Pe-2 (11) 18:50
4. Oblt. Erich Hohagen I-18 (24) 19:01
9. Lt Maximillian Mayerl Pe-2 (5) 18:45 5km S of Dorogobush
Pe-2 (6) 18:45 10km S of Dorogobush

Re: JG51 Victories
 

I couldn't find this thread sometime back but my friend "Kirche" found it and read this post. Having seen the original report he said all of this was wrong that showed up on the source that I ran across in 2007. He stated there was only one dogfight for the 5 GIAP that day of 4 Bf 109 vs. 3 LaGG-3 which ended with NO RESULTS. He said that the possible information was possibly from the memoirs of N.G. Ilyin who might have been confused about the date of the incident he was describing. So scrap this date from your list result for this incident.

Now day's I do not use Tomas Polak's "Stalin's Falcons". The best book so far is Михаил Быков "Советские Асы Победы Сталинских Соколов" which I got out of a Russian book store in New York for a good price.

Re: JG51 Victories
 

Michael,

So do you know the correct date/victors for these losses?

LaGG-3 5GIAP Mayor Grigorii Denisovich Onufrienko (29 victories, Total for war) shot down by Grasser
LaGG-3 5GIAP Lt Ibragim Shagiakhmedovich Bikmukhametov returned to base after ramming Bf-109 (Wknr. 9541) claim made by Ruebell

Nick

PS - Who do I have to bribe for a copy of the book you mentioned?

Re: JG51 Victories
 

Well, now the best book is Михаил Быков "Все асы Сталина 1936-1953 гг." (Mikhail Bykov "All Stalin's aces 1936-1953"). It has A LOT of corrections and additions. The 2008 edition is now seriously outdated.

Russian on-line shop:
http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/24803155/
On-line edition:
http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/28344359/
(click "Читать фрагмент" to appreciate the quality of the book)
Also Google Books:
http://books.google.ru/books/about/%...AJ&redir_esc=y
http://books.google.ru/books?id=mGw5...page&q&f=false

Re: JG51 Victories
 

JFV 9/II by Jochen Prien
Stab II/JG51 Hptm Hartmann Grasser LaGG-3 (69) 12:05 PlQu 47524
StabII/ JG51 Lt Guenther Ruebell LaGG-3 (37) 12:25 PlQu 47552

The only exact loss of fighters 3VA in a day in this area (to the north of Rzhev) is 163 IAP 210 IAD 13.15-14.35 (M.T.) fight of 6 Yak-1 against 4 Bf-109 - loss of second lieutenant Guryev Andrey Mikhaylovich (Vydrino-Shestino's region; parachute in the territory of the opponent).
In OBD-Memorial there are details: http://www.obd-memorial.ru/html/info.htm?id=9553899
On protection of Pe-2; he is hit in air fight; jumped out on a parachute; at a landing he was shot by the fascist plane; 05.08.1942 he is buried 1,5 km to the north of the village of Chentsovo of the Rzhev district
Chentsovo (56.4009606;34.3391954)
"the bad guy" is perhaps it there was Guenther Ruebell
I think that else losses of fighters of the Soviet Air Force were only round Zubtsov in 1VA.

Re: JG51 Victories
 

On going through one of my notebooks of material while researching JG 54, I ruled the following to claims out of their tally. So I looked into the other units operating in the Staraya Russa - Demyansk region and only I./JG 51 came forward.

27 Feb 1942 (Possible only) on checking JFV 9/I it has 1./JG 51 listing one claim but no pilot, type and no location but the time of 15:10. I know that when more then one pilot made a claim for the plane sometimes it was just awarded to the unit and not a pilot or it could be that the pilot's claim was just lost to history. On this day the reconnaissance Pe-3 of 321 ORAE flown by Lt. Mikhail Alekseevich Voronshchikov and crew were listed as MIA. Yes, there is also the possibility that they were shot down by AAA.

03 Feb 1942 (Possible) SW of Staraya Russa
LaGG-3 38 IAP flown by St.Lt. Mikhail Nikitovich Zhukov (7 victory ace) was shot down in a dogfight by two Bf 109 and Zhukov was WIA his fighter crashing. Again going to JFV 9/I the unit operating on the Soviet North West Front was I./JG 51. Making a claim that day was Lt. Herbert Epphardt 3./JG 51 for an I-61 (1) 13:47 with no location. Also listed as above two claims for 1./JG 51 with no pilot. type and location but times 13:57 and 15:07.

Re: JG51 Victories
 

Hi Michael,

www.allaces.ru tells us that Vasili Nikitovich Suetin of 521 IAP was KIA this date. Is he also a likely opponent to these claims?

Nick