355 FG engagements w/experten
 

I think I have narrowed down most of the units that enagaged w/355th but wish to solicit expert opinions from this Board on some more question marks?

I have dates and units (probably correct) of different pilots that went down on dates but the Unit raises questions - what I would very much like is info re: where and what type fighter were these pilots KIA/WIA? Thanks to all of you in advance -

1943
10/4 Hptm Rudolph Sigmund NJG3
12/1 Hptm Helmut Hoppe Jg26
12/1 Fw Alfred Miksch JG1
12/1 Oblt Herbert Schramm JG27

1944
1/29 Oblt Willi Kientsch JG27
1/29 Ltn Gunther Haase JG54 (III/JG54?)

2/11 Maj Franz Beyer JG3

2/20 Hptm Helmut Mertens JG3
2/20 Uffr Gerhard Raimann JG54 (III/JG54?)

3/6 Oblt Gerhard Loos JG54 (III/JG54?)

3/8 Ltn Hans Frese JG3
3/8 Ofw Rudolph Ehrenberger JG27
3/8 Hptm Hermann Segatz JG1

3/18 Ltn Rudolph Graph JG54 (III/JG54?)
3/18 Fw Karl-Otto Harloff JG3

3/29 Hptm Detlef Rohwer JG1

4/08 Ltn Josef Zwiernemann JG11
4/08 FhjOfw Emil Babenz

4/11 Fw Waldemar Eyrich JG3

4/19 Oblt Otto Webling JG3

4/24 Ltn Franz Schwaiger JG3
4/24 Hptm Emil Omert JG77
4/24 Fw Georg Schanz JG27 (Me109, Munich area?)

4/29 Ofw Rolf Stienke JG3

7/28 Gefr Walter Weinzierl JG302
7/28 Kurt Roisch JG3 (WIA where?)
7/28 Oblt Ernst-Erich Hirschfeld JG300 (Fw 190? sw Merseburg?)

8/03 uffr karl Heinz Schmidt JG3

8/06 Fw Herbert Dehrmann JG3

8/16 Oblt Ekkehard Tichy JG3
8/16 Ltn Hubert Buschman JG3 (Me109, Hildescheim area?)

1945
1/14 Ltn Carl Resch JG54 (Fw190? Damme?)
1/14 Fw Otto Ehrhardt JG3
1/14 Ltn Josef Kunz JG4
1/14 Oblt Johann Aisleitner JG26

Thanks everyone for any insight

Regards,

Bill Marshall

355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Hello Bill

Here is a list of several RK winners that you mentioned in your list. The basis for this information is Obermaier's Die Ritterkreuzträger der Luftwaffe 1939-1945. I hope that you find it useful and any comments or corrections will be greatly appreciated.

Schramm: 1 December 1943 in Bf 109 G-6 (W.Nr. 410 291) over Stembert in Belgium.
Aisleitner: 14 January 1944 in Fw 190 A-6 "White 9" (W.Nr. 530 734) near Montdidier-Ercheu by P-47 fighters of the 4th Fighter Group, USAAF.
Kientsch: 29 January 1944 in Bf 109 G-6 "Yellow 3" (W.Nr. 440 073) near Würen in Belgium.
Beyer: 11 February 1944 in Bf 109 G-6 (W.Nr. 411 036) by Spitfire fighters over Erezee in The Netherlands.
Loos: 6 March 1944 in Bf 109 G-6 (W.Nr. 411 922) near Rheinsehlen by 1st Lieutenant John Carder of the 357th Fighter Group, USAAF.
Rohwer: 29 March 1944 in Bf 109 G-6 "Black <<" (W.Nr. 440 295) near Mettingen.
Zwernemann: 8 April 1944 in Fw 190 A-7 "White 11" (W.Nr. 431 164) by USAAF P-51 fighters.
Babenz: 8 April 1944 in Fw 190 A-6 "Black 1" (W.Nr. 470 046) near Bentheim by P-47 fighters of the 361st Fighter Group, USAAF.
Wessling: 19 April 1944 in Bf 109 G-6 (W.Nr. 412 052) near Eschwege.
Schwaiger: 24 April 1944 in Bf 109 G-5 "White 5" (W.Nr. 110 186) near Rain am Lech by P-51 fighters.
Omert: 24 April 1944 in Bf 109 G-6 "Yellow 1" (W.Nr. 160 826) over Finta Mare in Romania.
Tichy: 16 August 1944 in Fw 190 A-8/R8 "White 1" (W.Nr. 732 029) due to collision with a B-17 four-engined bomber of the 91st Bombardment Group, USAAF.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Leo - many, many thanks. It has been hard to find location and time data for many experten encounters and your information is very useful.

I need to do some research on exact location for Wuren, Rain am Lech and Metttingen

If Rain am Lech is close to Munich Swaiger almost certainly went down in big 355/B-17/JG3 battle between 1330 and 1410. The 355th engaged with both JG3 (for sure) and probably JG27

Wessling on the 19th matches up with a victim of Capt Robert Woody, who would later score 4.5-2-1 on the 24th. Woody's 109 score on 19 April was west of Mulhausen, ssw of Nordhausen which would put the fight just ENE of Eshwege ~1015. The 355th lost a pilot (MacConkey) to Fw Florian of JG3 just south of Gottingen in same general fight. Two other claims were SW of Brunswick, one an Fw 190 and the other a 109.

Thank you again Leo.

Regards,

Bill

355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Hello Bill

Many thanks for your kind reply. I am glad to have been able to help a little. Here are some alternative locations that perhaps can help you narrow your search.

Schwaiger: Rain am Lech/Donau-Ries/Bayern
Kientsch: Würrich/Hunsrück/Rheinland
Wessling: Eschwege/Hessen
Schramm: Eupen in Belgium

I will next try to find the III./JG 54 pilots mentioned.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

About 28 July 1944 :

a) Gfr. Walter Weinzierl, I./JG 302: killed in aerial combat against escort fighters near Neustadt an der Donau. This loss thus can't be linked with the 355th FG. (Source: Jagdgeschwader 301/302, by Willi Reschke, Motorbuch Verlag, p. 115)

b) Lt. Kurt Roisch, Stab I./JG 3: wounded in aerial combat near Lexmond but died of his wounds on 30 July... 1943 (not 1944!). (Source: Messerschmitt 109 im Einsatz bei Stab und I./JG 3, by Jochen Prien and Gerhard Stemmer, p. 296 and 528 )

c) Oblt. Ernst-Erich Hirschfeld, II./JG 300: parachute jump from Fw 190 A-8 “Yellow 1” following air combat; killed when parachute failed to open, Geheren/Erfurt. (Source: Jagdgeschwader 300 Wilde Sau, by Jean-Yves Lorant and Richard Goyat, p. 260 and 358 )

Regards
Richard

355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Hello Bill

Here is what I found based on Rosipal's JG 54 loss list. I must admit that I was unable to find anything on a Lt. Carl Resch but on 14 January 1945 there was an aircraft lost with 12./JG 54. Might that be his? Any comments or corrections are welcomed.

Raimann: on 20 February 1944 in Bf 109 G-6 "White 3" (W.Nr. 411 426) at Duingen southwest of Hannover by P-47 fighters
Grath: on 18 March 1944 in Bf 109 G-6 (W.Nr. 411 753) south of Ssypkino (Russia)
Haase: on 29 January 1944 with I./JG 54 in Russia (no other information)
Resch: on 14 January 1945 in Fw 190 D-9 "Yellow 8" (W.Nr. 600 348 )?

Horrido!

Leo

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Leo :

For Carl Resch of 15./JG 54 a D-9 ? or an A-8. seems the IV./JG 54 were mixing it up with the US 356th fg near Osnabrück, area around Dummer Lake according to 5-6 356th fg mission reports. Think IV/JG 54 lost some 10 Fw 190A's but maybe one of our IV./JG 54 experts can add to this ?

E ~

355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Hello Erich

Many thanks for your post! Thanks to you I was able to rapidly find Resch. Knowing where to look makes all the difference. He indeed was with 15./JG 54, in fact Staffelkapitän of 15./JG 54. The information would be as follows:

Resch: on 14 January 1945 in Fw 190 A-9 "Yellow 1" (W.Nr. 205 118 ) near Broxten in Westfalen (Siedlung Vennemoor).

Many thanks Erich!

Horrido!

Leo

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

sure Leo, also another Staffelkapitän, Helmut Radke was also killed near Hesepe of 14./JG 54, do you have the a/c numeral and type of his ? Hesepe was later attacked on the ground level by 2 P-51's of the 356th fg one of them being hit by Flak, the pilot bailing out: Lt. Freeman Hooker

I think Bill is looking for the flight/unit of "long noses" encountered by the 355th just to the west of Dummer later in the day on 14 January 45. May just be the JG 26 contingent that also engaged Spitfires.

Bill ?

Erich

355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Hello Erich

Radke: on 14 January 1945 in Fw 190 A-8 "Black 4" (W.Nr. 739 178 ) at Hesepe in Oldenburg.

The only III./JG 54 machine that I find listed on 14 January 1945 is the Fw 190 D-9 "Yellow 8" (W.Nr. 600 348 ) of 12./JG 54 listed as Bodenzerstörung (destroyed on the ground) doubtless during the attack of the two P-51 fighters of the 356th Fighter Group, USAAF mentioned by Erich. Thanks for clearing this up Erich!

Horrido!

Leo

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

You gentlemen innundated me just then. I need to digest but it seems so far that:

Based on the locations, Schwaiger was shot down by either LtC Dix 355Gp Ops (or Butler/McNeff- 357FS) at very beginning of the engagement from 1320-1340. They chased JG3 fighters NE from pfaffenhofen area to Regensburg area..

High probability that Fw Georg Schanz JG27 went down over/near Munich in the 1340-1400 timeframe to 354FS.

On the flip side I believe the 3 air losses of the 355 were probably due to Bartels 11/JG27 and Dahl StabIII/JG3 - matching closely with time and location of the 357FS fight. I never have been able until now to figure out what happened to Hillman and Norman - but there were no other P-51 losses that matched up to those times for any other group on 4/24.. believe mystery solved.

Richard is correct about Weinzierl (too far South on 7/28) and Roisch (1943). Believe Hirschfeld went down to McElroy S. Merseburg around 1000.

All of the 355th FG encounters on 1/14/45 were between Meppen/Dummer Lake through Munster and N.Koln from 1410-1450 if that helps with ID

Will digest and get back to you all -

Many thanks

Bill

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Leo - based on your info re:
Stembert for Oblt Herbert Schramm of JG27 - 1 December, 1943...
It could match up to a.) Macurdy of 358fs/355FG as WNW Aachen if at ~1130 where he shot down a 109., or b.) a claim by Wilkinson 78FG at Eupen or c.) Ben Johnston of 357FS/355FG with 1-1-0 Me 109's between Koln and W Aachen 1130-1135

Rheinland for Oblt Willi Kienstch on 29 January - it's SSW of Koblenz I believe which matches up to a.) Macurdy again at approx 1110.. nobody else seemed to get a 109 S Koblenz, although several Me 110/210's and an Fw 190 were scored by 56FG and 78FG in Koblenz area..

So, Kientsch seems to be a victim of Macurdy who also got an Fw190 NW Aachen before being heavily damaged in same fight.. either JG26 or ? (who else flying Fw's that day in that area? Rankin 358fs/355FG was killed in this fight and Martin was damaged to C/L later near Limburg.

Rohwer was probably shot down by bombers on 3/29 as all the scores were either way NE toward Dummer Lake, Bruswick, Osnabruck or Rheine - but theoretically nobody claimed (of the returnees) anything between Munster and Osnabruck..

Still working - your input is great!

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Leo: the 356th fg chaps were heading down to shoot up 262's but am sure anything that looked German got a good treatment with .50's

Bill: I./JG 26 with D-9's were in the area of Köln so would assume this was one of the units engaged by the 355th on 14 January 45.

Erich ~

355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Hello guys

Many thanks to both for your replies. I must say that this thread is very interesting as it involves attempting to match possible victors over Luftwaffe experten. Indeed my information states that Rohwer was brought down by return fire from B-17 four-engined bombers which forced him to belly land at Mettingen. His aircraft was then attacked by P-38 twin-engined fighters and he was mortally wounded. Bill, I am going to take this opportunity to ask you a question that I have been wanting to ask you for some time. I recall that according to your research it was quite possible that it was a pilot of the 355th Fighter Group that ended the career of Egon Mayer, the Geschwaderkommodore of JG 2 who, at least in my opinion, was one of the true greats of the Luftwaffe (one of only three men to claim 100+ victories in the European theater including 26 four-engined bombers). Although the name of the 355th pilot escapes me I remember that you mentioned that his gun camara footage matches well with the events as described by Mayer's wingman. However, I recall that quite some years ago on this very same forum somebody wrote that it was possible that Captain David N Harmon of the 387th FS, 365th FG, 9th USAAF shot down Mayer's Fw 190 A-6 (W.Nr. 470 468 ) near Montmédy. Have you ever heard or read of this before and if possible could you comment on this? I do not what to interfer in or make you lose time in your current research but it would be interesting to attempt to clear this up. I am very aware that in large scale air battles it is very difficult to match victims to victors. Was the 365th Fighter Group engaged in that area? Many thanks and I am glad to have been of some help.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Leo - Your mention of the 365thFG as a possible claimant for Egon Mayer is the first time I have heard of it but that doesn't rule out the possibility..however there is no David Harmon in USAF credited with any air to air victories - or in USAF 85..for any record?

The 365FG, however has three claims for the 2March..Gross, Boles and Henry but I don't know where their claims are or for what type a/c?

Walter Greasham's combat film shows a Fw 190 at long range - 60-70 degree deflection from 8 O'clock to the Fw.. heavy strikes and then explosion mid wing left side (presumably 20mm ammo) then a series of rolls, then momentary straighten out (Presumaby full right controls), then roll again, momentary level - and then uncontrollable roll.

The fight started approximately 1355 SE Charleroi and was about a 5-7 minute chase. Both Mayer and his wingman were claimed in this fight. The rest of the 8th AF 190 claims were from S to SW Koblenz.

The above info presumably squares with his wingman's account who survived the encounter - but as you note, air to air encounters are iffy at best in respect to precise time and position.

Offhand I don't recall the exact location of Mayer's crash so that would have an influence in this discussion but the fight axis was from SE of Charleroi past the Charleville area..

Perhaps one other key is that the fight involved only one flight of P-47's from the 358FS and only two Fw190's - no other a/c in the area.

Maybe someone else can weigh on on 9th AF claims in the area?

Regards,

Bill

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

hello bill
Fw Otto Erhardt KIA 14 january 1945
13./JG 3 (Sturm)
Fw190A-8R-2 Werknr 682218 "weisse 9"
crashed at Beltrum, near Lichtenvoorde, Holland.
buried at Enschede: G3-6-171 reburied Ysselsteyn:R-1-15
probably shot down by Mustangs of 352 FG
regards
karl lusink
ARGA
www.arga-nl.nl

355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Hello Bill

Many thanks for your response clarifying this issue. If there are no victories listed for a pilot of that name (Harmon) than it is best to go with Captain Gresham as Mayer's possible victor. I am very glad to have your comments on this as it has been in the back of my mind for some time now. Many thanks and best of luck on your research!

Horrido!

Leo

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Bill,
Capt David N Harmon is credited with a FW-190 probable at 1240 hours at Bastogne on March 2, 1944.

Frank.

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Frank (Dr) - if it ain't in Stars and Bars or USAF 85 it doesn't exist for me - I couldn't find Harmon in either case.. the Probable explains it. Thanks for clearing up Harmon's engagement on 2 March

Thanks, Bill

355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Hello guys

Two quick additions to Bill's list:

Steinke: on 29 April 1944 in Bf 109 G-6 (W.Nr. 440 266) crashed 1 kilometer southwest Magdeburg
Schmidt: on 3 August 1944 in Fw 190 A-8/R8 (W.Nr. 670 777) in aerial combat (unknown location)

This information from Prien's IV./JG 3 volume.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Eric - I've wondered about JG26 and Vogt on the 14th - the timing is right but from the Encounter Reports of Graham and Elder and Mills, etc I didn't get the notion they actually got as far south as Koln but somewhere south of Munster in that direction.

..the 78th FG was more likely adversaries of the JG26 force as Vogt went down right at Cologne and the 78th for sure was in a big fight all around Cologne getting claims for 12 air for no losses..

Frank - was I right that Harmon had no confirmed scores? What was the time of his encounter - a probable has been known to be a 'certain' depending on the record.

I checked on Montmedy, however, and it closely aligns with both the direction and description of Gresham's fight, and way south of Bastogne.. close to Fumay...

Capt McKee of 359th FG had a damage claim for a 190 near Neufchateau which is also very close. The key to a probable 'certainty' is where his wingman went down as the 358FS/355FG claimed both as 'destroyed' in the same general area.

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Karl - thanks - the location for Erhardt closely aligns with area of 352FG claims for that day - too far west and NW of 355thFG location

Leo - Magdeburg doesn't align with any 190 claims for any 8th AF unit unless Calvorde is close. The 352nd shot down a 190 there and also strafed Burg which is close to Magdeburg. I don't have access to the 354FG records so they are also a possibility

Henry Brown of 355th shot down a 109 at Brunswick on the way back from Berlin.. so maybe Stienke went down to bomber fire.

As to Schmidt - I suspect the adversaries for the 355th were Stab/JG53 and JG3 on the 3rd of August. Most of the action was around Baden Baden/Sarreburg/Mannheim area. Combination of both 109's and Fw 190s.

There weren't that many fights on the 3rd so Schmidt is still a candidate for a 355 adversary

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Schmidt was probably shot down in his SturmFw 190A-8/R2 over the Alpen as the SturmFw unit of JG 3 engaged B-24's of the 15th AF. Will Unger shared with me his plight on this very mission of 3 August 44. Neil described much of his story on the SturmFw pages of his web-site.

Bill after reading the 355th fg book and the appearance of Dora 9's, JG 26 is the only Luftw outfit I can find that would come close to the ID made by the 355th.
The 78th fg encountered both Fw 190A's and Bf 109G's

E ~

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Eric - Dr Caldwell seems pretty sure it was 78FG around Koblenz that got JG26 that day.. of course long nose 190's should stand out like a sore thumb and the 355th definitely ran into a mix of 190D' and 109's.

Vogt actually going in at Koblenz still moves the adversary to the 78th.

On the other hand the claims of the 355th are closer to actual losses as they claimed 6 Fw190D's plus 5 109G's whereas Caldwell says actaul was 7 190D's plus 4 109's - the 78th claimed 6 and 6... still pretty close.h

355 engaged along Quackenbruck to Munster axis getting last one south of Munster.

With regards to Schmidt do you know which targets IV/JG3 was defending from the 15th on 3 August? The 355th wasn't too far north of the Alps on that day, Hoffman almost evaded via Switzerland after the mid air and Floyd Taylor - Scout Force pilot slipped over after mechanical problems.

The fight was with a mixture of Sturm Fw's and cover 109's - but could have been JG300 plus JG53.. Tony has Major Gotz, Ltn Ziems and Uffz Muller of JG53 claiming three near Pforzheim which would match up to the two from M/A and one shot down out of 354FS that day - but they were flying 109s.

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

IV.Sturm/JG 3 was encountering B-24's on their way to Freidrichschafen, Brenner Pass..... there were also claims of B-17's from part of the Sturmgruppe. the B-17's bombing Immenstadt

Herr Schmidt was shot down by return fire of the B-24's.

E ~

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Bill,

Harmon's only aerial credit is the probable, at 1240 hours. I didn't check Miller's 8thAF book(s) to see if he has any ground claims.

Frank.

355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Hello guys

A RK holder that I missed in my first post:

Ehrenberger: 8 March 1944 in Bf 109 G-6 (W.Nr. 440 111) near Wittenberg.

Note the date as well as that he was serving with 6./JG 53. The only thing I can add about 14 January 1945 is that according to Caldwell several Staffeln of II./JG 26 and III./JG 26 were spotted by the 78th Fighter Group three miles southwest of Köln. Vogt's Fw 190 D-9 "White 13" (W.Nr. 210 176) crashed southeast of Köln. As far as I know, the only units flying the Fw 190 D-9 at that time were I./JG 2, I. and II./JG 26 and III./JG 54. Was I./JG 2 involved in an air battle that day and thus possibly been the opponents of the 355th Fighter Group? That or most likely a mis-identification of Fw 190 D-9s by the 355th Fighter Group.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Leo - Ehrenberger definitely NOT 355, nor does it seem likely that any 8thAF fighter group was that far south of Berlin.. Magdeburg area closest with 4th FG. Possible 354FG (which claimed 3)or bombers. 357FG engaged all along the Dummer Lake to Berlin and back track and did not go that far south. 355th got theirs around Dummer Lake, probably JG3, and all 190's. Curiously enough one was described as a long nose 190 which was way before the 190-9 showed up in operations.

Erich - You are right. Schmidt too far away and wrong direction.. 355th went as far as Stuttgart area before turning for home and Schmidt obviously was hit by bombers and 70+ miles away.

Leo/Erich - yes the ID could be wrong on 190D's - but have to find out more about I/JG2 or III/JG54.. I'm pretty sure the 78th was group that tangled with Vogt..

Hptm Omert is still 'missing' as to location on 24th April? The 352nd got all theirs at or W Ingolstadt, the 355th got two as far N of Munich as Regensberg area but no further and all the rest from N to S to SW of Munich.. so anything north of Regensburg is either 354FS (don't know where they were flying but they claimed 4) or bombers.

All of you have helped a great deal. Thanks again.

Bill

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Bill IV.Sturm/JG 3 on 14 January 1945 got into a struggle with Tempests of the 486th and I think the 3rd squadrons in the area of Gütersloh. More Fw's lost over Holland-Arnhem

what I see is that I. and III./JG 2 lost some Dora 9's, I. and II./JG 26 lost Dora 9's. II./JG 301 lost Dora 9's to 357th fg. III./JG 54 was not in the battle or simply did not lose any Doras to enemy action

355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Hello guys

Erich is correct in that both III./JG 2 and II./JG 301 were also flying the Fw 190 D-9 at the time. Many thanks for bringing this to my attention. I have no information as to JG 2 but it seems as if III./JG 54 was not in the fighting as apparently no claims nor losses except for that loss on the ground. JG 301 claimed four victories in the Mecklenburg area on 14 January 1945 including Reschke's 23rd and 24th victories. In turn JG 301 lost 29 fighters (six Fw 190 A-8, 18 Fw 190 A-9 and five Fw 190 D-9).

Horrido!

Leo

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

hope this is readable. From a P-51 pilot of the 357th fg taking on JG 300 Sturms/Bf 109G's. from M. Williams copied archival reports

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v6...ch-14jan45.jpg

355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Hello guys

Two more experten that I have uncovered. Better late than never!

Miksch: on 1 December 1943 in Bf 109 G-6 "Black 13" (W.Nr. 140 007) in the Nijmegen area.
Hoppe: on 1 December 1943 in Fw 190 A-6 "White 6" (W.Nr. 550 731) over Cambrai/Epinoy by Spitfire fighters.

Horrido!

Leo

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Eric noted in another forum that IV/JG27, ZG26 and I/JG301 were engaged in the Munich battle on 24 April 1944. I know JG3 was there but don't have a feel for their losses - anybody have a better idea?

Leo - thanks for the update on Hoppe and Miktsch..

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

April 24, 44, III./JG 3 thanks to Jochen Priens exhaustive study(s)

at least 7 Bf 109G-6's lost to aerial combat., 5 to P-51's. Dachau and Neuburg being mentioned.

I./JG 3 lost 6 Bf 109G's, 4 in combat and Neuburg again mentioned along with Lachen-Speyersdorf

E ~ any others guys ?

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Eric - it seems you have fingered the primary opponent of the 355th on the 24th. That spot just north of Munich is where both the 357FS and 354FS got half of their claims, the other half scattered from Regensburg area to east of Munich to S and SE of Munich.

The 358FS spread themselves thin to fill the vacuum to cover the assigned B-17s.

This is one great example of the Luftwaffe being able to find a spot between groups (357 and 355) based on strung out bomber formations and load up the local area with a lot of fighters. The 1st BD lost at least 7 in that area plus 7 that went to Switzerland..

The 357FG and 355FG overlapped the fight area, 357 getting there about 20 minutes earlier.

Thanks again!

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

anything to help Bill. A tough point is the number of single engine JG's that put up fighters in numbers and joined together to form formations to attack the bombers. Single(ing) them out in fighter vs fighter combats is very hard to distinguish.

E ~

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

I know Eric. One of the reasons I looked at all the 355FG encounter reports (and Scout Force) is to piece together the times and locations. I now have that for all the major engagements from 4 October 43 to 20 April 45.

Then thanks to you and Leo and Richard and Tony and others, I have been piece by piece looking at claims on the LW side (for times and locations) and losses when that info is available.

The last piece is the escort track to RV and the bomber track to point of BE. If a 355 encounter took place outside that envelope then I compute a straight line back to Steeple Morden.

Thus far Tony Woods has been prime source but has a lot of time and place 'holes' for claims. Even so it is very useful in tracking B-24 and B-17 claims to help fill in my own knowledge gaps in the planned routes for those missions where I don't have a picture of the Mission Board, as well as the order of battle for the LW as the claims link to the tracks and times.

For example I don't have the Mission Board image for April 19, 1944 but I have the RV point south of Brunswick near Goslar and know the target for the 355 escorted bombers was direct toward Eschwege so the 'track' was almost 190, just East of Gottingen and over Duderstadt.

This info along Leo's info re: Wessling - pretty well links him to Woody based on claim/loss location. Still could be a mismatch but still high probability link. For example, it was very rare for perhaps the 4th FG and 355th to be in a scrap at exactly the same place and time.. but when the place confluence existed then only a 'time' is close to a tie-breaker

Having said that I do not claim certainty!

In the book I will link the pilot to the fight but won't express certainty- as you noted it is just too hard in a highly fluid environment and 'spotty' recollections based on time and place when the adrenaline is flowing at mach 1...

I would love other approaches if they work for you.

Regards,

Bill

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Thought you might want the following summary - there were a lot of separate Staffels in this fight!

April 24

F.O.312. Lieutenant Colonel Dix led a Ramrod at the lead of 357 Squadron to the Munich area from 1106 to 1632. The 355th provided target and withdrawal support to the trailing wings of First Division B-17s bombing Oberpfaffenhofen and Landsberg. Rendezvous was made at 1315 northeast of Augsburg, near Regensburg and turned south toward Munich.

The 357FG was already engaged with ZG26 and their escorts just north of Munich, quickly shooting down 10+ Me 110’s.

At 1320 the 357FS got into a scrap in front of the rest of the 355th, between Augsburg and Regensburg. Lt.Colonel Dix shot down a Fw 190 NE of Augsburg and chased down another very good German pilot in an Me 109 at Regensburg. The pilot was probably JG3 ace Ltn. Franz Schwaiger. Dix hit him hard and watched him in an inverted flat spin into cloud cover before breaking off to take on the Fw 190. Dix only claimed the 109 as a ‘Probable’ but Schwaiger went in just outside Regensburg.

Minchew, McNeff and Butler in the Red Flight with Dix accounted for two more 109s. Wilson and Demers in Yellow flight picked off one and two more 109s respectively between Augsburg and Munich in the 1335-1345 timeframe. StabII/JG3 Gruppenkommandeur Herman von Kapp also went down in this same fight.

During the fight, Minchew was separated from the flight and picked up Norman and Hillman near Munich. Norman called a bounce on unidentified single engine fighter below. Minchew investigated, only find a single 357FG Mustang. When he climbed back to altitude, Norman and Hillman had disappeared. Second Lieutenant Jack Sturm was also shot down in this fight.

Based on the timing and location it is probable that Luftwaffe Expertens Major Dahl, III/JG3 Gruppenkommandeuer and Fw Heinrich Bartels of 11/JG27 shot down Hillman, Norman and Sturm as they claimed three Mustang victories in the 1345-1347 timeframe in the Munich area. The 357FG also lost three

At 1340, just north of Munich, more B-17s out in front of the 355th came under heavy attack by 40 plus Fw 190s and Me 109s.

Kucheman led the 354FS into the gaggle and the 354th engaged for about 20 minutes in a wild scrap ranging from 35,000 feet to the deck. This fight started NW Munich, ranged over the city and around the bomber stream on the way back, SE and SSW of Munich.

Woody led his flight into one bunch of Me 109s and quickly flamed four, got heavy strikes on the fifth, but over ran it.. Boulet got strikes on number five but also ran past it as Woody slid in and put a solid burst into the engine and cockpit. Number five fell off pouring smoke, coolant and oil and finished in a tight inverted spin before blowing up. Woody then put another concentration of strikes into a sixth Me-109, from about 60 degrees deflection, before finally running out of ammo. The 109 fell off in a spin but Woody only claimed a "damaged".

In all, Woody, Fortier and Boulet destroyed nine in this encounter and Woody received a DSC for his role in the mission. Kucheman picked up three 109’s, Brown two 109’s and Fortier nailed one and shared another 109 with Boulet before the Luftwaffe was able to extract itself from this fight.

Woody and Brown became the group's fourth and fifth air aces.

Demers unfortunately was lost on the way home attacking barge traffic on the Rhine ~1425. He had a structural failure on pull up, losing both wings near Minden.

The 358FS had opportunities but stuck with the B-17’s to cover for the 354 and 357FS attacks.

The 355th FG claimed 24 but the final score was later reduced to 20-1-6. The 357th FG also had a great day in the same area with 23 claimed. In all it was bad day for ZG26, JG3, JG27 and JG300 but also a bad day for bomber losses with 14 B-17’s going down in the Munich area to fighters and flak plus another 7 crossing the border to land or crash in Switzerland. In all including ditchings, evasions into Switzerland and more losses on the way back to England the 1st Bomb Division lost 27 B-17’s, 17 due to actions by German fighters.

The Luftwaffe controllers were successful at exploiting the gap in coverage between the 357FG and 355FG due primarily to the trailing wings lagging too far from lead wings and positioned 200+ fighters in that area. The order of engagement seems to be ZG26 with 1/JG3 flying top cover around 1315-1320, followed by III/JG3 around 1325, then StabII/JG3, IV/JG26 and III & IV/JG3 in the 1330-1335 timeframe. IV/JG 27 appeared in the 1336 timeframe. The battle ranged from Regensburg to Augsburg and Dachau in the northwest to Muhldorf and Lanshut in the northeast to Rogoersdorf in the southeast to Landsberg and Oberfaffenhofen to the west of Munich.

Rarely did two different Fighter Groups cooperate so well.

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Bill: probably just a typo but

at the bottom of your posting for April 24, 44 you should change JG 300 to JG 301. JG 300 was performing chases of RAF 4 engine bombers at night. JG 301 on the other hand did have Luftkampf mit P-51's

E ~

Re: 355 FG engagements w/experten
 

Eric - thanks. It was a typo - you had already given me the info and my brain misfired from my notes..

I also caught another problem - I forgot that 9,10, 11 and 12 staffels in JG26 were III (nor IV) /JG26.

From the order of battle it seems that only IV/JG were equipped with Fw190's - every of ther unit but ZG26 (110G's) were Me109G's..

Bill