P-51 "B" at Toulon, French Riviera.
 

Dear all.

Hi from France, French Riviera.

I am searching more informations about an P-51 "B" worrying the ASN 42-106748 lost close to Toulon during WWII.

I possed only few informations about the fact that this plane was maybe shot down on August 12'1944 because a loss of gas (?), and belonged at the 52nd Fighter Group of the 15th USAAF.

The AFHRA of Maxwell AFB, Alabama, don't have more about adn can't help me more.
Thank you if someone can give us more about this curious mystery.

Is the first time that we identified an plane with his data plaque, and that our request about "who was the pilot, and what happened about him" don't receveid positive identification.

Thank you

Philippe

You can visit us at :

www.aero-relic.org

or

www.immadras.com

Re: P-51 "B" at Toulon, French Riviera.
 

Phillipe - 2 suggestions:
New Book - Spitfires and Yellow Tails 52d FG
www.accident-report.com
Email the contact and give them Serial #
Cheers

Re: P-51 "B" at Toulon, French Riviera.
 

No P-51 losses reported by 52nd FG book on August 12.
No P-51 losses in the MACR listing.
Nothing on Joe Baugher's list.

Re: P-51 "B" at Toulon, French Riviera.
 

Howdy !

Thank you for your nice and quick reply at my request;

It is now since many years that I worked on this particular case.

I know well the web sites'links you send me, and that was my last way to know better about, but...

My direction about this plane, had also an little possibility of an plane giving by the 52nd FG to the 332nd FG, the famous Tuskegee Airmen "read tailled".
I am in contact with this organisation, and received an 332nd FG'historian
at home last summer about these blacks pilots shot down in French Riviera.

But, with no MACR, impossible of know who was the pilot and his statut, ...depiste the famous radio-call number'data plaque in hands.

Many thank for your help, but I continue my search for, despite apparently a real difficult way.


Philippe

Re: P-51 "B" at Toulon, French Riviera.
 

For Southern France combats on 12 August 1944 involving Spitfires and P-47s vs. Bf 109s see http://www.ghostbombers.com/dragoon/odnav.html

Click on the link for "Before D-Day" and read from there.

Re: P-51 "B" at Toulon, French Riviera.
 

Thank you for the link Nick, but is difficult of have more again.

The date of August 13 is also giving as one "possibility", with, maybe, an pilot named Robert Daniels, Capt. of the 332nd FG.

But, is incredible..., is, too, impossible of know what was the serial number of the capt. Daniels P-51 "B" ?

Thank you one more time for your help.

And again and again, I continue my search for soul.

Philippe

Re: P-51 "B" at Toulon, French Riviera.
 

Phillipe,

The 332nd FIghter Group lost five or six P-51s (probably all B/Cs) on August 12,1944. The MACR listing I have only shows one of them. It is probable that "your" P-51B is one of them. They were all lost while attacking targets in Southern France.
Some of the possible pilots:
(1) Lt. John Daniels, 302 FS,POW, P-51 crashed into the harbor.
(2) Lt. Langdon Johnston, 100 FS, KIA--P-51 crashed into Marseille harbor.Lost right wing when it hit the sea
(3) Lt. Joseph Gordon,100 FS, KIA, Not known if P-51 crashed into sea.


The others
Lt. Robert O'Neill-evaded w/ French Resistance-crashlanded on the beach
Lt. Dick Macon-POW-P-51 crashed on land
Lt. Alexander Jefferson-POW-P-51 crashed on land

So , least two of the P-51s crashed in Marseille Harbor

For some reason, there are a number of losses of the 332nd FG that did not get into the MACR listing I have.

Re: P-51 "B" at Toulon, French Riviera.
 

Thanks again "Kaki".

The Cap. Robert T. Daniels was not relatives with John Daniels.

The fact, mainly, that many MACR's are not consultable, is because the "segretation".
Don't forget that the "blacks pilots" had a hard life at this time (ans still today, no problem), and many time, reports of MIA concerning an black'pilot was not taken in charge by the HQ.
I am sorry of write that, but is an reality, more about the 332nd FG, unique unit with black pilot during WWII I presume.

Rare are the MACR's know fora an 332nd FG'pilot loss.

I knew all the other informations you send me, and have the MACR's.

Nothing is easy, and again despite my request at the HRCA of Maxwell, AFB, Al., no more infos was coming.

Alex Jefferson'plane was precisely lost in the same time (few "seconds") that Robert Daniels (thgey were friends, and we are in contact with Jefferson - Daniels passed away few years ago -. "Jeff" had just write last year an special book on his WWII Air Force'experience in MTO.

Despite this knowlege, impossible of know what plane (ASN) Daniels was flying that day and really, I did a long and precise researches about since now, many years.

Thank you again, really.

Philippe





Both pilots were Pow's. Daniels apparentely

Re: P-51 "B" at Toulon, French Riviera.
 

Hello Philippe,

May I suggest that you look at the MACR number 7617.

This is for the 361st FG 375th FS loss of 2Lt John E. Engstrom who was shot down by flak in "E2-G" serial number 42-106778. The date was 12th August 1944.

Alex

Re: P-51 "B" at Toulon, French Riviera.
 

Alex,
I thought Phillipe's P-51 find was made on an underwater wreck? In that case, it could not have been a 361st FG P-51. The mission for the 361st FG on August 12th was attacking rail tranportation targets in France.

Phllipe.

I don't think the absence of MACR records for some of the 332nd FG losses was due to segregation, but instead due to the vagaries of war. Records were sometimes destroyed or not tranmsmitted. All which make historical research very difficult.

For most of the the 332nd FG losses, there are existing MACRs.

Re: P-51 "B" at Toulon, French Riviera.
 

Hi Kaki3152 ,

Did I miss something ? where did Phillipe say the P51 was under water ?

Alex

Re: P-51 "B" at Toulon, French Riviera.
 

Hi Kaki 3152,

Recorded on the NARA site as POW for the 12th August 1944 are

2Lt. Robert H. Daniels jr, O-817582 - Negro - 332
2Lt. Alexander Jefferson, O-819461 - Negro - 332
2Lt. Richard D. Macon, O-821916 - Negro - 332

While listed as dead on the ABMC site are

2Lt. Joseph E. Gordon, O-821912 - 99th FS 332 FG
1Lt. Langdon E. Johnson, O804554 - 100th FS 332 FG

I also have found that there was

2Lt. John Daniels of the Class of 43-G-SE 7/28/43 - 01106669 from Chicago, IL.
and
Lt. Robert O'Neill of the Class of 44-A-SE 1/7/1944 - O819463 from Detroit MI.
But have no more info on them.

Alex

Re: P-51 "B" at Toulon, French Riviera.
 

Hi Kaki and Alex

Again, "Merci beaucoup" in helping myself about this sêcial case.
I had a telephone conversation with my firned Guy, and he explain me that by advance, he had to search about this same plane (we work toegether on) at :

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=535


yes, I know that dspite all, many MACR's are missing, and that, not only fro the Blacks pilots, but to the Blacks pilote, is more often... is an case, but I agree about your vision.

The 3261st FG was't in southern France during WWII. Also in August 1944,many 8th and 9th USAAF'fighter group were still P-51 "old version" "B" and "C"'flying.

I have really at my own deception, "turn in all side" this fact of Capt. Robert Daniels and P-51 "748", and found that :
- is impossible of know what plane and ASN worried the capt. Daniels'P-51 that day, and... what was the pilot who effectively ditched his "748" south of Toulon, France.

If the "748" was the Capt. Daniels plane, is possible, but, historically talking, is not possible of confirm to me.

But... we continue.

have a nice sunday.


Philippe