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A factory fresh Me 109G-G14AS
Here is another link which takes us to a veteran's pictures page
http://www.pbase.com/rhssr/after_dday Among the planes shown, there is, if I'm not mistaken, this factory fresh Me 109G-14/AS found at Grafenwohr in 1945; http://www.pbase.com/rhssr/image/1671876 Any idea of the units which used this airfield in the closing days of the war? Thanks Marc |
Re: A factory fresh Me 109G-G14AS
Marc, this is an Erla-built G-10, not a G-14/AS.
It's cowling, no chin bulges and a square panel under the windscreen are to be seen. It's camouflage (dark green 83 or 81 for example) with smaller fuselage crosses identifies it's origin too. There are some of those well documented in Japo book (a JG 52's 109 in Deutsch Brod). cheers! Kuba |
Re: A factory fresh Me 109G-G14AS
Kuba,
Thanks for correcting me! You're right, the Erla flat panel is obvious; I was at a loss for the lower cowling bulges; the radiator does not look very deep also... All told, an excellent picture. Too bad there is no W.Nr. to be made out. I have the JaPo book over the Deutsch Brod 109's, I'll check back. Cheers Marc |
Re: A factory fresh Me 109G-G14AS
Greetings all,
In late 1984, I published a color photo of a very darkly camouflaged Bf 109 G (AIRFOIL #1, page 21 top). Even though my photo was taken at Frankfurt Rhein-Main on 30 April, 1945, and Searl says Grafenwohr, April, 1945, I believe they are one in the same. Everything in the background of Mr. Searl’s photo matches my AIRFOIL color photo: the same berm, trees, and concrete bunker are in both photos, and both plane’s main wheels are resting near what looks like a small drainage ditch. Also, both aircraft have the “Erla-style” refined cowling and wider oil cooler, large upper wing bumps and short tail wheel leg; the same light patch above their raised oil filler hatch; and their Morane antenna is curved the same. While the Bf 109 in AIRFOIL has its spinner in 2/3 black and 1/3 white, apparently some time between the two photos being taken someone has turned its prop and opened its Erla-Haube canopy. Its camouflage is still somewhat of a mystery, however. In my color shot its looks very, very dark indeed (in fact, I thought it was black?). However, in Searl’s photo I think I can see some camouflage demarcation lines behind the cockpit and the fuselage Balkenkreuz. Finally, perhaps it is just wishful thinking, but on Searl’s photo I think I just make out a low-contrast blur on its fin and rudder where a Werknummer would normally be on an Erla-built G-10. Steve Sheflin |
Re: A factory fresh Me 109G-G14AS
Hi Steve,
Thanks for your comment; any chance to see this picture in colour? I understand your impression to have an all black Me 109G-6/AS, like the colour photograph of Green 5 of 2./EJG 2 photographed on 14 april 1945 in Gardelegen, from the Jeff Ethell collection, recently published in the Luftwaffe in Focus Special 2, p. 26 - 27. Actually, like you, Kuba pointed on a two tone 81/82 or 83 camouflage extended on most of the fuselage. A good example of his type of camo can be seen with Yellow 11 from JG 52 (?), found at the end of the war in Deutsch Brod (Jada and Poruba 2004, 46 - 49). Is your shot better concerning the possibility of reading the W. Nr.? Thanks for the input Marc Sources: - Axel Urbanke 2006, Almost a miracle: "Green 5" of 2./EJG 2 in colour, Luftwaffe im Focus, spezial 2, p. 26-27. - Ales Janda and Thomas Poruba 2004, Messerschmitt Bf 109s of JG 52, in Deutsch Brod, JaPo, p. 46 - 49. |
Re: A factory fresh Me 109G-G14AS
No no, I'm afraid that due to my not so good english you have understood me wrong Marc. I meant, that G-10 (G-10/R6?) looks like it's uppersurfaces were painted solid dark colour, maybe 81, maybe 83 green.
What is interesting, what Mr. Sheflin wrote - a light patch near the oil filler neck - there are stencils painted on a light patches all over the airframe, as if they painted them on light colour, then masked and applied that dark paint next. This photo is so small and blurry, that I can only guess, that it's Werknummer is painted on the rudder on the middle height. cheers Kuba |
Re: A factory fresh Me 109G-G14AS
What makes it even stranger, the stencils being painted on light color is that these aircraft seem to have been painted without any RLM 76. Notice that the dark color, whatever it is, goes around the entire fuselage, even the underside, and I also think looking at other similarly camoflaged G-10's, it would have had the underside of the wings in natural metal. This would be the most extreme form of camoflage simplification at the end of the war, but it makes it strange indeed that the stencils seems to be painted on light surface. - unless they were painted on the bare metal...
Cheers! / Anders |
Re: A factory fresh Me 109G-G14AS
Hi Kuba,
You're correct, I checked too late yesterday evening, one solid colour, indeed. thanks for correcting. Anders, Darck colour around the entire fueselage: is this a fact or an illusion borne out of the prevailing light conditions when the shot was taken? Or was it again an all black machine, like "Green 5", 2./EJG 2? Thanks for your inputs Marc |
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This is all too clear from these two images showing close-up details of Italian (ANR)-flown Bf 109 G-10s of Erla production: http://users.libero.it/f.damico/veltro/G_Wlabel1.jpg here the label is being applied on a brand-new aircraft, which would gave no sense to a "masking" of any kind... http://users.libero.it/f.damico/veltro/G_Wlabel2.jpg Here the same label appears scratched and scuffed, which is clearly compatible with a rectangular patch or decal, rather than to a painted wording on a painted background... Hope this helps |
Re: A factory fresh Me 109G-G14AS
Playing with the images in Photoship it appears that there is a banded camoufalge. A dark, wide band at the front of the cowl going from upper left to lower right. Another at the cockpit and a third behind the fuselage cross. A fourth may be at the fin and going under the tailplanes. Note also the rudder appears lighter than the fin infront.
http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/attach...1&d=1172419831 |
Re: A factory fresh Me 109G-G14AS
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HTH |
Re: A factory fresh Me 109G-G14AS
[quote=Modeldad;38503]Playing with the images in Photoship it appears that there is a banded camoufalge. A dark, wide band at the front of the cowl going from upper left to lower right. Another at the cockpit and a third behind the fuselage cross. A fourth may be at the fin and going under the tailplanes. Note also the rudder appears lighter than the fin infront.
Hi Modeldad, Correct, there is after all a two tone camo scheme; it is also faintly visible on the original picture. Thanks for your input Marc |
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Veltro: Thanks for the decal theory by the way, that would explain my last problem with my own theory... :) |
Re: A factory fresh Me 109G-G14AS
IIRC at first Erla painter painted the words on the fuselage with an mask, then covered with an rectangular piece the words and painted the camouflage.
If I use an decal I have an clear cut. Have a look on the second pic from Ferdinando --- not the "Wasser ..." but the "Vorsicht beim ..." (lower edge). There isn't such an cut ... it's more an "hand - made" border with a lot of irregularities ... IMHO ... of course. If the features from Mr. Sheflin are correct, then it's an G-10/R6 from the 151 xxx - or 152 xxx - batch (some a/c's from the 150 xxx - and 491 xxx - batch are possible too but I'd guess it's unlikely). Best wishes Rasmussen |
Re: A factory fresh Me 109G-G14AS
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At any rate, I would like to underline how the "Wasser..." wording in the second image looks scratched and peeled away in points... showing the camouflage beneath it! Had it been applied on immaculate RLM 76, this would have not been possible... IMHO of course too. EDIT: by looking closely at the photographs I own of Italian ANR Bf 109 G-10 Erla(s), I've found a proof that also the "Vorsicht..." wording was a decal, at least on these aircraft. Look at the following detail: http://users.iol.it/f.damico/veltro/Vorsicht-1.jpg ...it is clearly visible how the decal peeled away in one point showing the camouflage underneath. In this second image... http://users.iol.it/f.damico/veltro/Vorsicht-3.jpg ...the decal wasn't applied correctly and thus looks "warped" a little. I think this is interesting evidence, IMHO. HTH |
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Hi Cpt Farrel, Well, you can check any amount of late war Me 109's photos, and you will notice more often then not this issue of having a very dark looking lower part of the fuselage, even if the sun position respective to the subject is good. This is quite obvious for the II./JG 52 109's which landed on 8 May 1945 at Neubiberg. IMHO, it has to do with the curvature of the fuselage, probably reinforced in some cases by exhaust stains (which is not the case for the plane we're talking about...). Thanks for your input Marc |
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Similarly shadows cast on an aircraft from nearby structures are sometimes mistaken for "special markings" :) |
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it seems you are right. Why? 1.) I checked my interviews with former factory workers. They didn't speak especially about the service labels. "Unfortunately" I spoke with this men 15 years ago and this point wasn't in the center of interest --- so my notices are very vague. 2.) There were the so - called "Tauchbilder" (our decals) used for some instruments and a/c parts. It's likely that some (many?) service labels existed too. 3.) Your picture proofs, Ferdinando ;) An interesting news, thanks. Best wishes Rasmussen |
Re: A factory fresh Me 109G-G14AS
Hi all - my first post here...
Maybe I have some info about the location "Grafenwöhr"- some 10km away from Grafenwöhr there was a Messerschmitt factory for the final assembly of Bf 109 fighters like the G-6, G-14 and K-4. The factory was situated at Vilseck airfield close to Heringnohe village halfway south from Vilseck to Grafenwöhr. The parts for the Messerschmitt fighters were fabricated by surrounding subcontractors and prisoners from the nearby Flossenbürg concentration camp. A factory from a schoolfriend´s father was involved in the production of 109 wings and as a boy I still could see there fences manufactured from Messerschmitt wing´s profiles. After the final assembly the 109s were transferred to Amberg-Schafhof airfield and handed over to Luftwaffe personnel. So I´m rather sure this particular plane was photographed at Vilseck-Heringnohe airfield or at Amberg-Schafhof. Thanks for your attention Roland |
Re: A factory fresh Me 109G-G14AS
Hi RolandF,
thanks for this excellent background information. It gives a precise explanation as to why a Me 109G-10 in such excellent condition was found there back in May 1945. It is thus a real possibility that this plane actually never flew, thus giving an excellent explanation for its pristine state. One question though: did the Vilseck factory also produce 109G-10's?. And on the lighter side, any Messerschmitt wing profile fences around nowadays? Thanks for sharing your knowledge Marc |
Re: A factory fresh Me 109G-G14AS
Marc: while I aggree with you when it comes to the rear part of the fuselage, I still think that the forward part, in front of the wings, must have had the color taken all the way around. Maybe the lower part of the rear section was left in natural metal though, which also would look very dark given the conditions you describe... I'm updating my profile templates now and I hope that I can present some profiles soon, showing my ideas.
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Re: A factory fresh Me 109G-G14AS
Cpt Farrel: OK, ready any time to see your point!
cheers Marc |
Re: A factory fresh Me 109G-G14AS
Roland, your information is excellent, but as far as I recognise - Amberg, Vilseck etc was connected to Mtt. Regensburg production and our G-10/R6 was n Erla-Leipzig built one.
Was there at Vilseck a repair or conversion centre? Did they repair a G-10 or a 109 at all? That aircraft is preety clean, no exhaust staining, no oli leaks. Perhaps it was a well maintained one? When you look to the Bedienungsvorschrift – Fl Bf 109 G-6 part “Reinigen des Flugzeuges” (operating instruction) you may see that cleaning its surfaces is necessary for looking for damages and cracks. Maybe our G-10 was in really good condition, not as filthy as others were? |
Re: A factory fresh Me 109G-G14AS
Dear Kuba,
Maybe it is a G-14/AS, after all :-) As for maintenance issue at this stage of war, one would doubt such an exceptionnal effort; besides, this plane has no unit markings; IMHO, I would not bet it did ever fly... Cheers Marc |
Re: A factory fresh Me 109G-G14AS
Marc, this would be an extremally difficult to proof.
You see, the oil tank is bigger, the cooler is shallow and no chin bulges. The panel under the windscreen is square and the crosses on fuselage are smaller. The mainwheel are bigger and the tailwheel is lower. The camouflage is characteristic too to those to be surely G-10 from 151/152 bathes. The G-14/AS built by Erla I know of were just preety different in both shape and presence. With the maintance - I do have a look for a large collection of photos from Neubiberg. Those Gustavs are so different in apperance, some are filthy, some are almost clean. The same with more photos of abandoned / damaged ones from german abandoned airfields. I'll go with a G-10/R6 rather well maintained or well cleaned after all. ;) |
Re: A factory fresh Me 109G-G14AS
Kuba,
- Agreed for the low tailwheel, shallow cooler, bigger oil tank, flat panel Erla-style. - Unsure about bigger mainwheel, no wing bulges to be seen. I wonder if you could post a pic (or a link to) from an Erla produced 109G-14/AS, and one from Mtt Vilseck? As for clean versus filthy, well, everything is possible. But the lack of unit markings is a fact pointing to a brand new plane, isn'it? Cheers Marc |
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Those are preety well known ones, you'll find those pictures in Mr. Prien / Rodeike book for example. The lack of unit markings does not proof a fabric new one. I'd rather say this is a consequence of chaos, rubbish and a lack of time. Or as well this one G-10 was photographed on hand-over airfield? |
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....and for those from Vilseck - some K-4's and I think G-10 from 130xxx block will be OK
cheers! Kuba |
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OK, thanks for the pointers, I'll check them.
Hand-over field, excellent suggestion! cheers Marc |
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Re: A factory fresh Me 109G-G14AS
Hello,
"- Unsure about bigger mainwheel, no wing bulges to be seen." The bulges are to be seen on the color picture. Cheers, Jicehem |
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Re: A factory fresh Me 109G-G14AS
Hi all,
I´m glad my info was helpful for you. As far as I know there weren´t any G-10s assembled at Vilseck factory. And there wasn´t any official repair workshop according to my sources. Concerning the lack of any Stammkennzeichen I´ve got some evidence that those signs were applied after being successfully test-flown at Amberg-Schafhof. Some photos exist from belly-landed test a/c at Schafhof with the common-known hand-painted final digits of the Werk-Nr. Due to poor quality of those 109s this happened rather often. The skill of the workers and subcontractors was rather low let alone the attepts of sabotage by the KZ workers. So I do think work was restricted simply to the montage of prefabricated wings and fuselages - afaik additional production was carried out at Floss-Plankenhammer some 5 km distant from KZ Flossenbürg - so that repair of damaged planes was beyond of the skills of those workers. After March 1944 Messerschmitt Regensburg spread its production all over the so-called Upper Palatinate ("Oberpfalz) in Northern Bavaria to escape the then extensive bombing. The patchwork look of many late-war 109s can be explained by this production methods. The Stammkennzeichen was applied just before handing over the 109s to the Luftwaffe, there´s a photo of a snow-covered K-4 W.Nr. 332 707 at Schafhof ready for delivery. At Falcon´s an "N" of the last letter is visible. Schafhof airfield together with numerous planes was totally destroyed on April 18, 1945. I´ve found a webpage about the "Einflug-Flugplatz Amberg-Schafhof" with more additional info about Stammkennzeichen, Werknummern and flight accidents - unfortunately only in German. For those who can read it: http://www.flugplatz-amberg-schafhof...ugbetrieb.html If you need some translation feel free to ask Concerning the fences I´m quite sure they still exist. They used good quality and aluminum does not rust ;-) Thanks Roland |
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Cheers Marc |
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Thanks for the link, thanks for your further precise details and arguments. It seems thus we should not expect brand new 109G-10's on this airfield. So we have again the possibility of having a G-14, as a K-4 can be positively ruled out. As for the G-10 possibility, especially the extended wing bulges, well, let's hope the colour picture will shed some more light... Again, thanks for your very argumented input, and for making me dream about 109 wing ribs as fences... Any plan to publish your documentation one day? That would make for a fascinating insight in the late war industry realities.... Cheers Marc |
Re: A factory fresh Me 109G-G14AS
Dear Marc,
Unfortunately, this picture is the one printed in Airfoil No1 in... 1984. I've no scan to send you a copy... I suppose you speak very good French language to have written "Dear JCM". Am I right ? Cheers, JCM |
Re: A factory fresh Me 109G-G14AS
Cheer JCM
Reçu 5 sur 5! Supposition exacte! Mes amitiés au Sud depuis une Genève pluvieuse en diable... Thanks for your reply. Are you really positive about the extendend wing bulges? What are the colours to be seen on the plane? Thanks for your information! As a side note, anybody here in the forum who could scan this picture from Airfoil 1, 1984? Cheers Marc |
Re: A factory fresh Me 109G-G14AS
... Perhaps you should ask the permission of Mr. Shefflin, who is also member of this board and joining this discussion... Otherwise drop me a pm
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Re: A factory fresh Me 109G-G14AS
Hello Philippe,
Thanks for the information, I didn't know he owned the rights for this photo. And thanks for your offer; I will first ask Mr. Shefflin. Cheers Marc Dear Mr. Shefflin, I hereby allow myself to ask you if you would be kindly provide us with a scan of the colour picture of this much discussed Me 109G. this could help settle some of the issues we're discussiing in this thread. Thanks so much in advance Yours Marc |
Re: A factory fresh Me 109G-G14AS
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