Bundesarchiv Material in Public Domain
 

I am the author of an upcoming book about the loss of a B-17 crew in WWII. The University of Oklahoma Press is the publisher. The book is being processed for publication. The book will be out in the spring of 2008.

I have included computer scans of two Bundesarchiv-Militararchiv claims on the B-17. Both were supplied to me via hardcopy printouts of Microfilm obtained from the BA-MA.

I believe the BA-MA material is in the public domain and free from copyright issue.

Can anyone comment?

Thanks,

Bob Korkuc

Re: Bundesarchiv Material in Public Domain
 

You are a brave man

Re: Bundesarchiv Material in Public Domain
 

AFAIK, price for a hard copy includes reproduction fees. So, in a way, these scans are free...

Re: Bundesarchiv Material in Public Domain
 

Hi fellows!
Just for information, I had to pay for the use of a photograph I will publish on a forthcoming book about RAF flyers. I used a Junkers Ju 188 A-2 photograph that appeared on several well known books. They charged me 34,10 Euros for the rights of reproduction for one photo! It seems that even the rights of former nazi magazine DER ADLER belongs to Bundesarchiv...There are a lot of controversy about the 50 years law on photographs taken during WW2.
Maybe someone more well placed, like famous Historians such as Gross, Cornwell, Mombeek, Middlebrook, Vasco could answer for us "sprog" researchers and "yet to be" writers...
Cheers for ALL

Re: Bundesarchiv Material in Public Domain
 

Hi.

As far as I can understand you do not have permission to publish for example scans of information from the Bundesarchiv without paying publication fees.

Most of the documenst I have gotten from them have the text 'Weitergabe an dritte nicht gestattet' (or something similar, at work now so the wording might be abit different). In essence this indicates that the information has been copied for your use and reference, not for use in for example a book.

The easiest way to get an answer is to contact them directly, I am sure the leader of the readers room, Frau Jana Brabant, will be able to answer you by mail in a day or two, concerning your particular documents and what you can and can not do in order to not be in conflict with the consent form you must have signed in order to get the copies.

Folowing up this - do you guys think that 10 - 20 - 30 Euros is a horrendous amount of cash to pay for being able to publish a photograph from the BA collections? I understand that if you are going to publish a photo book based on BA photographs only, this will be a high price to pay. On the other hand it has been a while since I have been able to secure an unpublished photo of PK quality on for example eBay for an amount like that.

In my opinion the BA does a great job (they can of course be even better, but there will always be room for enhancement in any service), keeping a service that give 'us' access to original documents from this period.

Best regards,
Andreas B

Re: Bundesarchiv Material in Public Domain
 

Andreas, I do agree with you! 35 Euros is nothing for a decent and in some cases rare photograph to be used in a private venture like a book. I can´t imagine how successful writers could use this kind of material, to illustrate their works in vast quantities. For example, if you take a book of PRIEN about JG 53 you will see that from the 400+ pictures, I would say almost 90% came from Bundesarchiv. With these high rates it is almost 12,000 Euros! Of course in such a case, there must be some retail prices, etc...But I do know for example that Crown Copyright´s expires after 50 years, as well as IWM. For those who are beginning in this area it could be easier to have access to large amount of photographs.
I also do agreed with you that BUNDESARCHIV possess a Staff of the highest quality and they are quick in answering and dealing with those questions. I was very well treated indeed.
Best regards for all and specially for those "sprog" writers that intend to publish a book in a very near futur...I particularly would like to estimulate people to research and publish...it is the only way to preserve History...

Re: Bundesarchiv Material in Public Domain
 

Andreas, you must be kidding! Both their prices and general policy are just ridiculous. A royalty here in Poland is about 25 Euros per page, so a single photo is more than that, and please do not forget 2-3 photos are the minimum for such a volume.
I think you are missing the point of archive's existence. National archive in general should store archive material and make it available for interested parties, that is why they get money from tax-payers. Instead of that BA is limiting access to the stuff, demanding excessive fees and paperwork.
Important note is that their holdings are not copyrighted since the end of the war, so it makes the situation even more crazy and ridiculous.
On the other hand, I have heard that they have destroyed their vast collection of original negatives due to nitrocelulose content, and their copy negatives are a far cry form the originals.

Re: Bundesarchiv Material in Public Domain
 

Hi!
I have just bought a Brazilian aviation magazine that ( it is not the first time that it occurs ) have used dozens of photographs previously published on Prien´s books, Bf 109 in Action book, etc...it seems mostly Bundesarchiv photos. Certainly they are not private ones.
Does the copyrights for magazines differs from those for books? How does it works?
Nice to see that in Poland, at least the prices are cheap than in Germany. I quite do agree with the last posting. The charges could be reduced a bit more to facilitate the full access for everybody.

Re: Bundesarchiv Material in Public Domain
 

Franek, some comments:
1) Isn't nearly everything much cheaper in Poland then in Germany?
2) Why should anyone who doesn't pay taxes in Germany have a right to ask for any free services from the German government?
3) IMHO, even if it is a german citizen "working" in any field as special as ours, there is no obligation for the government to support private activities. And above that, even if it is as high-classsed as for example Dr. Prien's work. It stays each individuals own "risk", wether it is hobby or profession. A normal taxpayer might be very angry if he should pay taxes so that all golbal WW2-enthusiasts could freely access these archives.

To make it short: If the BA helps someone accessing documents, they should have the right to ask for payment, even more, if that person is not german.

Apart from that, copyrights are a difficult topic, but I also don't know how to handle it "just".

Re: Bundesarchiv Material in Public Domain
 

Hello, Franek

We disagree, plain and simple, and no discussion online will change that.

To me, the fact that I can access preserved historical documents is worth spending some money. I have come to the conclusion that I will never earn money by being an aviation enthusiast, and every book project I have heard of in the 'private sector' is a question of break-even with regards to money spent and money earned.

I of course see that if you are going to publish a book with 3-400 photographs and pay the fees to BA for every one you have a lot of cost to count in as a basis for the project. If you check out what sudek13 has paid for the 350 last high quality photographs he has won on eBay, it would be interesting to see what the cost is per photo...

But to my rather long conclusion - rather than burn or dump the lot (like the norwegian air force did with almost all the documents the building department had at Gardermoen before they started constructing the new airport there...) the government in Germany has decided to use tax money to keep a national archive for military history (and of course also civilian history).

I am glad they did, and I do not claim the right that I as a foreign citizen should be able to have free access to their holdings with no cost whatsoever (and people - the cost here is for copies and the right to publish, if you go to the BA/MA there is no cost involved when researching their holdings from the readers room. At the Bildarchiv you have to pay a fee for each day you are there). It would be interesting to see exactly how much the BA use each year to pay their staff, to preserve their holdings etc.

What one could wish for is of course that they adopted the system from National Archives in London, where you rather than having to pay for copies are able to take 'digital notes' by using a digital camera to photograph the documents for research at home.

But - until then I will be happy to be able to access the original documents at the archives in Freiburg and Koblenz. A week on a hotel in Freiburg with a group of enthusiasts and friends researching the archives at day and discussing the findings and other aviation history related over dinner at night is not the worst way to spend a week in my opinion.

BTW, any of you guys in Freiburg late April?

:-) to all,
Andreas B

Re: Bundesarchiv Material in Public Domain
 

Andreas, Joerg
You have entirely missed the point. I am not demanding everything for free policy (although it is introduced here and there), but I demand access, understanding of copyright and reasonable prices.
You can visit eg. AWM, IWM or NARA archives and you can order whatever photo is there, and only then if you want to publish it, to pay a fee. In ECPA or BA you CANNOT order a photo for personal use. More, copyright is claimed without any rights to it and the fees are excessive comparing to other similar archives.
In several cases, photos held at BA or ECPA are the only ones of the subject. Eg. bulk of photos of Helmut Wick's aircraft come from PK series and one can count privately taken ones on a hand. Thus if I want to publish anything on the subject I must use photos from the archives. I was able to secure scans or prints of the very same photos coming from other sources, but often with a worser quality or with quite a bit of effort. If I had the possibility of acquiring them in an archive at a reasonable cost, it would save me plenty of time for other research, etc.
Andreas, certainly your government should be condemned for destroying the historical material, but I may assure you that destroying original negatives is as much stupid, and I may assure you that within a few years most of the Lw documents will disintegrate. At the moment, plenty of WWI records are dissapearing due to paper's self destruction.
Joerg
1. No, it is not.
2. Nobody is asking for anything for free, but respecting the law.
3. Every government is obliged to preserve archives and make them accessible. It is noted even in the EU law.
Summarising, BA cannot claim copyright for copyrightless material, and cannot limit access to the material stored to individuals. Here is the point. I do not mention that BA holds thousands of negatives created out of Germany, thus belonging to the heritage of respective countries.

Re: Bundesarchiv Material in Public Domain
 

Hmmmm

With regards to NOT being able to order scans of photos for research that must have changed since I was there last... the only thing is that these reproductions are in a quality that would be unsuitable for reproduction or publication (basically scans with sub-100dpi resolution, typically to be used for viewing on a computer screen).

They still offer this today as far as I can see, and in my opinion this should be 'good enough' for most of us if and when used for reference. If what you are complaining about, Franek, is that they will not send you 300 or 600 dpi scans, or make duplicates on film, my question would be why should they? To me it seems that you are able to use a personal computer, and if the purpose of obtaining these copies are for research and reference purposes and not as a way of getting around their publication fees, this service should be adequate...

I think our energy would be better spent on other archives that are not at all accessible, at least the really interested person will still be able to visit the different parts of the Bundesarchiv and research the collections there.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Bundesarchiv Material in Public Domain
 

Andreas
Wish you luck deciphering serials from such scans.
I see IWM has no such problems as BA and for me it is a clear indication that the problem is elsewhere.
Problems with the other archives, yes definetelly personal files need some general declassification, as the current situation is crazy.
I will see, what the EU law says about it.
PS To make the situation clear, I have thousands of scans gathered from private persons, so I know what the real research is.

Re: Bundesarchiv Material in Public Domain
 

Thanks for all of the comments about use of BA-MA material. I emailed the BA-MA and learned the following.

> Sehr geehrter Herr Korkuc,
>
> auf Ihre o.a. Anfrage teile ich Ihnen mit, dass es sich bei diesen Filmen,
> die aus den USA in das Bundesarchiv gelangt sind, nicht um Archivgut
> des Bundesarchivs handelt und daher von hier auch keine Genehmigung
> für die Wiedergabe erteilt werden kann. Über die Herkunft der
> verfilmten Abschuss-meldungen, die möglicherweise aus den National
> Archives stammen, kann ich
> Ihnen leider keine verbindliche Auskunft geben.
>
> Mit freundlichen Grüßen
> Im Auftrag
>
> Elfriede Frischmuth

The gist of the conversation was that the LP Luftwaffe Claims List ledger contained on the films in question were obtained from the National Archives. Thus the BA-MA could not provide permission to use photocopy depictions of the claims. Previously when I contacted the National Archives they indicated that all WWII material was in the public domain, free from copyright issues and could be used in books as long a proper citation was given. Thus with this reply from the BA-MA, the material is free from copyright issues and I will cite them as the source.

A mystery still exists what happened to the Ledger Claims Lists original paper sources? The NA does not claim to have nor does the BA-MA.

Regards,

Bob

Re: Bundesarchiv Material in Public Domain
 

Last point, when I received the Luftwafee Claims list material via a researcher (Sebastian Remus), I paid a fee to obtain them. Thus I feel that they were compensated already for the use of the material.

Re: Bundesarchiv Material in Public Domain
 

Hi,

Regrettably a lot of paper documentation has been destroyed after being microfilmed as, at the time, it was considered too costly for the storage. Even as recently as 1999 I was personally aware of certain Civil Servants authorising the destruction of valuable historical documentation (some WWI and more WWII, from a variety of operations areas), often without any attempt at microfilming, including PoW cards. One lady in particular had the attitude that this sort of stuff was for Government / Civil Service use only and, when not needed officially, should be destroyed as it would be of no use to anyone. Of course, once destroyed, the documentation can not be found or passed on to foreign governments!

I managed to get some stuff saved then (including a list of PoWs for one camp which was enclosed in a cover made from an old Shell fuel can!) and I would hope that this sort of mindless and selfish destruction has now ceased.

David

Re: Bundesarchiv Material in Public Domain
 

Gentlemen,


I am in no way trying to confuse the issue but some of you may find this resource of interest: http://www.iuscomp.org/gla/statutes/UrhG.htm (Sections V, VI, and VII are the relevant ones.)

I disagree with Franek regarding paper disintegrating. Granted, storage is an issue, but I have recently purchased periodicals printed on poor paper from the early 1900s. And Civil War era (mid 1800s) newspapers are available on eBay. I've seen them. A friend of mine recently contacted me about a Land Grant document signed by President Grant, dated shortly after the Civil War.



Regards,
Ed

Re: Bundesarchiv Material in Public Domain
 

Perhaps the bottom line is that why can´t BA adopt the rules on the US NA that charges no publication fees at all.