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Fw 190 D in Ed's selection
Guys,
Did you saw this one??? http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...m=140094528295 For me it is a first... Some comments? Thank You Ed! |
Re: Photos 3-9
Philippe, Fw 190 D? Perhaps you mean this one:
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...m=140094528295 Looks like Fw 190 D-11, "White Chevron 57", WNr 220011 found at Bad Wörishofen in May 1945. |
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Hi Guys!
I got shivers down my spine when I suddenly noticed that this Dora has a load of R4M rockets under the wing!!! I’m not entirely sure that it actually shows Fw 190 D-11, "White Chevron 57", W.Nr. 220011 found at Bad Wörishofen in May 1945, as that bird was photographed on open ground and on its belly. But this photo can of course have been taken before that. Or my theory, could this maybe be a second photo of the well known D-9 with R4M’s photographed in a south German forest? /Micke D |
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Knew I've seen this one befor!
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...m=270097690477 In the monograph Polish Wings No. 6 by Wojtek Matusiak, page 48. According to Matusiak, this is Spitfire Mk. I K979, which became the Mk. II prototype with a Merlin XII and then converted to PR. Crashed over the Ruhr on 17 August 1940 and the pilot, F/Sgt. J. D. T. Taylor-Gill becoming a POW. The aircraft was later displayed in Vienna then Warsaw. |
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Now these D520s are most interesting. They appear to be Vichy aircraft handed over to the Regia Aeronautica. Full Vichy markings, but with the white RA fuselage and wing bands. The badge is unfamiliar, perhaps Mr. D'Amico can add information.
Thanks Ed for finding all these great pictures. http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...m=130088213377 http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...m=130088213318 |
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Fw 190 D-9 "we.57", I./JG 301 "R4M-träger"
Hi Micke,
You are correct in your interpretation. This image is indeed the starboard side view of the Dora-9 Dave Wadman and I described in our Experten decals book way back in 1995. In addition to the position of the trees in the background and cut branches in front of the machine, the position of the prop, solid-coloured spinner, RLM 81 stripe on the rea fuselage insert and fin leading edge, and upper/lower surface demarcation lines all are identical. Enlarging the image confirms that there are 13 R4M 'Orkan' rockets attached to the wooden launcher. Obviously though, some time has passed between the taking of the two images, with this one being later as the canopy, windscreen and lower landing gear doors are all missing. It would be most interesting to know if the werknummer is visible in the original print. That area is delibereately blurred to cover the swastika. Perhaps Eric Larger might comment on its possible werknummergruppe. Since our initial efforts, we concluded that this machine, along with others from JGr.10, ended up with I./JG 301. This was based on documentary eveidence as well as the red and yellow tailband. In this image, the forward red half is just visible but the rear yellow part is very light in shade. The converse is true for our image. Also, note that the white '57' is rather fresh in appearance. There is a patch of paint under it that infers an earlier code number existed but was covered over, likely when it was received by I./JG 301 More information can be found here: http://www.stormbirds.net/experten/p...2addendum1.htm Cheers, David |
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http://i18.ebayimg.com/01/i/000/90/f6/1504_1.JPG
French insignia "Archer grec" as found on planes belonging to " l° escadrille du GC 1/1 " http://www.airmil.org/images/007-1039.gif |
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http://membres.lycos.fr/muret/spa31metal.jpg
...or "Archer romain" insignia? :) |
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Useful link for french insignias...
http://www.insignesaviation.com/ look at "1ère Partie: 1939-1945" for the one of SPA 31. Cheers, |
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Thank you for the clarification on the D520. But can someone explain the white bands. I onely recall seeing them on aircraft the RA took over
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Modeldad,
As far as I know, in november 1942, south part of France (so called Zone libre) has been invaded, not only by german Wehrmacht but also by italian forces. The Groupe de chasse I/1 (G.C I/1) was then equipped with D520s and land-based in the area of "1ère Région aérienne". The 1st aerial district (extended from Lyon-Bron to Le Luc and St Raphaël, down along the Rhône valley) fell under italian control and near sixty D520 were transferred to Regia Aeronautica, as war-captures. I believe that the white bands (wings and fuselage) might have been applied on those two D520s by french airmen or mechanicians who did not enjoy to overpaint their beloved insignias too! Overpainting cockades was surely enough for them! :( :mad: Perhaps is it an explanation for the neat painting job, around insignias? :) Hope it will be of some help... |
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those of us who have a liking for other broekn eagles might want to take a look at some of the other pics the guy with the R4M 190 is selling,some nice 109 wrecks.
Nick http://search.ebay.de/_W0QQfrtsZ450Q...msdivision1944 |
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Unfortunately no info on location. Captioned as being a G-6. http://cgi.ebay.de/WWII-German-AIRPL...QQcmdZViewItem |
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Hello!
The He 59 in this photo: http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...m=270097501259 is probably PY+NF. Three Finnish official military photos of the He 59 PY+NF are in the Finnish archives. Those photos are captioned "A German plane forced down by AA at Lauttasaari island beach" Lauttasaari is almost downtown Helsinki. Time is Summer 1941. EDIT In book "German aircraft in Finland" by Keskinen et al at page 120 there is photo of He 59 B-1 PY+NF WNr 1821 (it is one of the "SA-kuva" photos I mentioned). The place is Helsinki Lauttasaari. Cheers, Kari |
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Regarding the Fw 190 D again, which I find a most interesting find:
http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?...m=140094528295 I do not have all the references handy listed on the website by David E. Brown on this thread as they are in my other home seven time zones away, but when comparing with photos of other Ds found in the Bad Wörishofen area listed as D-11s of the 220xxx series; Double Chevron; ; "Double Chevron dash"; Chevron 57 and Chevron 61 - This 190 shows a strong resemblance with these. Another D-11 found now? Regarding the number "57": Given the number of 190Ds opertaional in the unit (Strenght report existing?) I find it remarcable that two ac individuals both carried the tactical number 57, even if one might have been without chevron, during the same time period. (Replacing the bellied in < 57 ???) By the way, waiting eagerly for Fw 190 D Part 2 from Eric Larger and team - 30 years ago I did not even dare to hope that so much info on the late Doras would surface! Absolut top quality work! Ref: Fw 190D Camouflage & Markings P.1, Eric Larger et al., Po. Fw 190 "Long Nose", Dietmar Hermann, Schiffer. |
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Hello all of you
for the moment this picture suggests more new questions than real answers . For me photo in Experten decals #2 and this one on ebay are depicting the same machine, same, trees in the back ground , etc ... I think that both photos were taken at Bad Wörishofen , were all other known FW 190D-11s have been found . There are similaries between this machine on ebay and Fw 190D-11 W.Nr 220011 , there are several more photos of this particuliar aircraft exising , but none of them enables us to see if underwing rockets racks were installed . So until it will be possible to see the Werknummer , we cannot be 100% sure . Eric |
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Hi Eric,
I believe that you are correct in your thoughts that the R4M-träger in our book and the aircraft in this new photo are the same aircraft. I came to this conclusion after spending some time comparing the various images of this aircraft. The photo of it on its belly must have been taken at a later date when it was being salvaged, but enough of it is visible to copare it with the one in our book. Regarding the markings, photos of "we.<61" show an interesting feature. On the port side of the aircraft, the code is displayed as "<61". Yet on the starboard side it is the mirror image "61>". The number "57" is of the same style and size in all the images. Given the above observation, the new D-11 photograph in all probability had the code "57>" on the starboard side but can't be seen in this image. I believe that there are enough comperable features in the photos of this aircraft to conclude that it was not an Fw 190 D-9 attached to I./JG 301 and Dave Wadman and I originally interpreted, but a rare Fw 190 D-11, WNr.220011, "we.<57" of the Verbandführeschule General der Jagdflieger. A significant question remains: What was this unit doing with aircraft equipped with this weapon? There are some obvious possible explanations but certainly more reseach is needed. All the best with the book! Cheers, David |
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Looking closely at the Fw 190 D "White 57" image when enlarged, I notice there is a bright mark just ahead of the number "57", almost covered by the trailing edge of the wing. Positioned ahead of the rectangular patch placed mid-level of the "7", the angle and position corresponding what could be the lower end of a chevron. Place and angle could (perhaps) indicate the possibility of the ac carrying a white chevron ahead of the number "57"?
Given the heavy exhaust staining from the engine, the lower end of the chevron ought to be stained, which according to my image interpretation might be the case. Perhaps a closer look at an enlargment of the original can tell. Only my vivid imagination, or can someone else see something similar??? Any way, I would be very surprised if this would turn out NOT to be the D-11 WNr.220011. |
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Hi Dora fans!
I must say that I have to disagree with both David E. Brown and Eric Larger about this new photo. I do not think that the new EBay photo of the “White 57” loaded with R4M rockets and the older one shown in Experten Decals No. 3, are the same aircraft. I think that they most likely have belonged to the same unit and have been photographed at the same place and time. But I guess that it will be difficult to say which unit they must have belonged to, what might be a tail band on the photo in E-D No. 3 is certainly not present on the photo of “White 57”, so it doesn’t easily say what unit these planes came from. I can’t really say that I think the trees positions are the same in the two photos. “White 57” from the new photo looks to be in a clearing, and the Dora from E-D No. 3 seems to be farther in under the trees. David E. Brown says that the photo that they published in Experten Decals No. 3 is the same plane as “White 57”, but photographed at an earlier date, with canopy and wheel covers attached. I have read somewhere that allied troops removed the canopies from captured Fw 190’s because of the explosive charge under the canopy. But I can’t really see the reason why anyone should remove the lower wheel covers and the canopy and not the rockets on “White 57”? I’m not sure if the photo of “White 57” shows a D-9 or D-11, -12, -13. The supercharger air intake seems to be of the longer, bigger type used on the Jumo 213F equipped D-11, -12, -13’s, but it’s difficult to say with branches from a small tree covering parts of it. I think the upper part of the nose of “White 57” looks flatter than a D-9. I’m sure that the Dora in E-D No. 3 is a D-9, because it has MG 131’s in front of the wind screen. We know from a photo, in Axel Urbanke’s “Green Hearts first in combat with the Dora 9”, that JG 26 received R4M rockets at the very last days of the war. And from written sources, shown by Brown and Wadman on Experten Decals website, that JG 301 was going to receive some D-9’s with R4M rockets from JagdGruppe 10, who had been tested this rocket system on the Fw 190D. Both JG 26 and JG 301 seem to have been very good at painting tail bands on all or at least most of their planes, so the lack of tail bands on these planes could possibly be because for some reason they never left JGr 10, or somehow founds their way to Verbandführerschule General der Jagdflieger. I really hope that it will be possible to see the W.Nr. of this plane some day. Best wishes, Micke D |
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Hello Micke , David
I know , new photos of FW 190D-11 , White < 57, < 61 , <<- ..... Showing details you cannot see on the published photo of these machines . white 57 on port side regarding the angle of the photo in Experten Decals #2 is taken, sould not be visible (and this is what we saw on the photo) , only the upper right corner of the last digit is painted on the fuselage access door . Now White < 57 W.nr 220011 , and this white 57 could be 2 different machines ,the latter replacing the former one ... Why not ? There are connections between III./ EJG2 , VFS der GdJ , JG110 and JV 44 . All units were close for each others . We did mentionned in "Fw 190D , Camouflage and marking , Part 1 " , several flights done by Otto Leisner , and ex-JG300 pilot , sent to EJG2 for training on Me 262 , on FW 190D-11 at Bad Wörishofen .... Now what were the links between all these units ? up to now we do not have any clear answer . As I said to all of you there are too much remaining questions , to have a clear point of view on the subject . The book is on its way , working hard on it , the last steps ... All the best Eric |
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I too have spent a fair amount of time studying this image over the weekend, and I am inclined to agree with Micke D. The aircraft is neither D-11 White 57>, nor the E-D R4M D.
I also agree that it was probably photographed in the same location as the R4M D, probably serving with the same unit. His observations are exactly as those I made, although I'm not sure the rockets themselves are visible on the racks, the white "L" shape visible under the wing is, I believe, just the edges of the wooden rack. The highness (if that's the right word) of the number "57" is, I think, possibly the biggest clue to the (unknown) unit ID. I have never seen a long-nose with a number this high that wasn't a trials or test airframe. Perhaps Eric or David can confirm this. Whatever this aircraft turns out to be, it's a fascinating and exciting photograph, Regards, Chris |
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This is what I said previously there are more remaining questions than clear evidences .
it s sure that this machine was built by Focke Wulf (FW 190D-9 or FW 190D-11) . There are evidences that at least one a/c went from JGr10 to II./JG300 ( FW 190A-8 , found in Bayreuth Bindlach) , see J.Y Lorant 's book on JG300 , part 2 (french edition) . These high tactical numbers are often recorded by VFS der GdJ (in log books see 'Fw 190D Camouflage and markings , Part 1 pages 180 to 190 ) . Other discussion to come later , but yes it is a very interesting aircraft . Eric |
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Eric Larger wrote:
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I have always thought that the open cowling in the photo in Experten Decals booklet No. 3 is to flat to be on an Fw 190D-9. /Micke D |
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Hi everyone,
Here is the answer. Regards, Hideki Noro |
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Hi Hideki
I recheck this evening all versions of this photo I have and you are right , this is a FW 190D-9 , I did not see this week-end a detail on the gun cowl , there is a circular bump , as on many FW 190D-9 built by Focke Wulf . Look at the picture attached . This is an option I kept in mind as some similary painted FW 190D-9s, were found at Bremen with flat canopy (Eagle file, Dora of the Galland Circus , page 45) . That does not solve other questions . Eric |
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Surprisingly, the auction ended with no bids. After so many complaints concerning bidding opportunities, it is noticeable that no one took the chance of having the image in hands to analyze.
Can someone explain? |
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Hi Fernando,
It was ended by the seller prematurely as he probably got a direct offer which was high enough to convince him to stop the auction. So, it probably didn't go for little money..... :-( Regards Roger Gaemperle |
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Hi guys!
So to summarize this I would personally say/guess that: 1. The plane with R4M rockets in Experten Decals No 3 is a D-9. 2. "White 57" is possibly a D-11, without the outer wing MK 108s. It could have been marked "White <57", maybe as a replacement for the well known bellylanded "White <57" from Verbandsführershule des General der Jagdflieger.. 3. Both planes are most likely photographed at the same place, possibly Bad Wörishofen. 4. Both planes could probably have belonged to Verbandsführershule des General der Jagdflieger. /Micke D |
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Micke D,
Looking over your list, here's my opinion: 1. Agree 2. Possibly a D-11 (although I'm more inclined to think it's a D-9 - that cowl just doesn't look flat enough for me!) - not sure I agree about the replacement for white 57> theory, that said I don't know what other unit's aircraft it could be!! 3. Agree 4. Cautiously agree! Overall though, I agree with Eric, there's just not enough evidence to come to any concrete or, for that matter, semi-firm conclusions. However, it's still one of the most interesting Fw 190D photos I've ever seen!! Regards, Chris |
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MODELDAD
directive of the luftwaffe has to leave of november 1942:all the plane glancing through the ex-zone free,have to concern wings and fuselage of the white bands(strips) understood included. there are photos of fw.190 of II/JG.2 in tranzit for tunisia with bands. |
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Focusfocus:
Glad I happen to check back. Thanks for that. I've not seen aircraft in that marking. |
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Look on page 37 of Arthy and Jessen's Fw 190 in North Africa and page 96 of Weal's Jagdgeswader 2 'Richthofen. Both photos are also in other publications as well. |
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it's absolutely naive to think that a photo that is discussed at this board goes for little money! Or did anybody on TOCH thought that he/she get a chance to win an interesting photo, especially a D-9 or D-11 !!!! for only some dollars? Let's hope that a true interested Luftwaffe enthusiast and expert bought it to publish it in future :) Kind regards, Günter. |
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Folks,
A very hearty thank you for your responses concerning the Fw 190 D and other. It is fantastic to see the community live and answer questions with their knowledge... |
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Philippe
Knowledge for itself is nothing . Knowledge get its true value when it is shared and explained to others . Eric |
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John, thanks for the direction.. I found it.
The white is a bit further out, but perhaps any aircraft operating in the South of France. http://home.earthlink.net/%7Esaeisenman/white14.jpg http://home.earthlink.net/%7Esaeisen...shRepainr2.jpg http://home.earthlink.net/%7Esaeisenman/13ab_1_b.JPG http://home.earthlink.net/%7Esaeisen...shRepaint2.jpg |
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