LUFTWAFFE CLAIM FOR WESTLAND WHIRLWIND P6989
 

Hello Everyone,

My name is Malcolm and this is my first posting to the Forum. I am interested in WW2 aviation research focusing on RAF activities. This often involves Luftwaffe nightfighter combat claims.

However, I am, at present researching the loss of a 263 Squadron Westland Whirlwind – P6989 – that was shot down on 01.04.41. off The Lizard (Cornwall) reportedly by the rear gunner from a Do-215.

I presume that the Do-215 was on a daylight raid and therefore I am at a loss of how to carry out research into this days events relating to the Luftwaffe squadron concerned.

I would like to ask if any forum members can help me to identify the Do-215 aircraft/crew and unit involved or point me in the direction of research sources that may prove helpful.

Any help with Luftwaffe claims on this day would also be most appreciated as perhaps the aircraft involved was incorrectly reported at the time and could have been another Luftwaffe type.

With kind regards - Malcolm.

Re: LUFTWAFFE CLAIM FOR WESTLAND WHIRLWIND P6989
 

hi,i think it was a arado float plane, i belive the rear gunner nailed him too when hwe he shot down the aroado plane,check book, john formans 1941 turning point,, its there i belive im waiting for this book from my store, which ive read, before,gary

Re: LUFTWAFFE CLAIM FOR WESTLAND WHIRLWIND P6989
 

Hello Gary:

Many thanks for the reply! I will check this out.

With kind regards - Malcolm.

Re: LUFTWAFFE CLAIM FOR WESTLAND WHIRLWIND P6989
 

hi,your welcome, the whirlwinds i belive were from st evel.another whirlwind collided , some time later , on, and another dived in the sea off burnham.,in nov dec 1940..the whirlwind was not a brill fighter as was seen, by there losses in 1941,chanelll dash..but was still a nice idea,
gary,,

Re: LUFTWAFFE CLAIM FOR WESTLAND WHIRLWIND P6989
 

I have a small book on Whirlwinds by Kookaburra Technical Publications, circa 1971.
Not sure how accurate this will be, it lists P6989, A 263 Squadron aircraft from January 1941 as HE-J, it crashed in flames near Helston, April 13, 1941.
Another 263 aircraft, P6985 also wore HE-J, but was written off March 24, 1941

Regards,
Mike

Re: LUFTWAFFE CLAIM FOR WESTLAND WHIRLWIND P6989
 

Hello Mike:

Thanks for this it is very helpful. I am trying to locate a photograph of P6989 – so far without success. Your posting highlights the need to be able to view the serial number as well as the code.

With kind regards - Malcolm.

Re: LUFTWAFFE CLAIM FOR WESTLAND WHIRLWIND P6989
 

The book does have pics of P6984 & 85. The author is Bruce Robertson. The book by Victor Bingham looks promising as well.

Try here,
http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Sear...whirlwind&x=33

Regards,
Mike

Re: LUFTWAFFE CLAIM FOR WESTLAND WHIRLWIND P6989
 

Hello Mike:

Many thanks for this. I did not realise this much had been published on the Whirlwind.

With kind regards - Malcolm.

Re: LUFTWAFFE CLAIM FOR WESTLAND WHIRLWIND P6989
 

I believe some of the books listed are about the Whirlwind helicopter. Don't go ordering all crazy & the like.

Regards,
Mike

Re: LUFTWAFFE CLAIM FOR WESTLAND WHIRLWIND P6989
 

Hi
the date 13th is a printing error often repeated,
crooks was shot down on the 01-apr-41
according to local official records and CWWG info.
cheers
jerry

Re: LUFTWAFFE CLAIM FOR WESTLAND WHIRLWIND P6989
 

The Do 215 (if it's a Do 215) could have been in a night intruder mission, as I./NJG 2 was very active at night at that time over England.

Re: LUFTWAFFE CLAIM FOR WESTLAND WHIRLWIND P6989
 

CJE:

Many thanks for this. I have been forwarded a details taken from the squadron ORB recording this event. The time given for probably take off is 19.00 hours. However, it could be the actual time of the interception. Either way it happened in the early evening. I presume that this would be too early for nightfighter operations? I would be intrested to hear your thoughts.

With kind regards - Malcolm.

Re: LUFTWAFFE CLAIM FOR WESTLAND WHIRLWIND P6989
 

Malcolm

The Squadron ORB gives Time up as 1835, Time Down 1915. S/L Donaldson's Combat Report gives the time of attack as 18.55. Since Britain was on BST (GMT +1) at the time and Germany on GST (GMT + 2) one might expect any Luftwaffe account of the combat to be timed at 19.55 or thereabouts. I don't know if this rules out Christian's suggestion of an intruder sortie or not, but, since the aircraft was over land, I assume we can rule out anti-shipping and probably Wekusta ops.

Donaldson had very little operational experience and aircraft recognition, particularly of rarely-encountered types, was not a strong point of RAF fighter pilots. Dorniers were frequently misidentifed as Ju88s and even Bf 110s (also twin-finned) and vice versa. So it could have been almost anything, but I'd love to see this mystery solved: it's been bugging me for years.

The “Arado” issue is a product of confusing this episode with one that occurred on February 8th in which a different pilot in a different Whirlwind allegedly shot down an aircraft that might have been an Ar 196 and was himself allegedly shot down by it. Although the Squadron ORB records the story this way, as do recent accounts, the other pilot involved in the sortie identified the enemy aircraft not as an Ar 196, but as an He 115. Another mystery.

NiallC

Re: LUFTWAFFE CLAIM FOR WESTLAND WHIRLWIND P6989
 

I have photos of Crooks and Whirlwinds taken at Exeter in Jan/Feb 41 but not of this ac. I cannot throw any light as to who might have got Crooks

Re: LUFTWAFFE CLAIM FOR WESTLAND WHIRLWIND P6989
 

Hi
This too has bugged me for many years,and I have thought many things.
On that evening, 2 HE-III's and a FW-200 were attacked off St Eval by 247Sq, so it appears anti -shipping and recce units, were taking a short cut across cornwall to the irish sea, etc,
My personal 'theory' is as there seems to be no claim and if the 'dornier' was a mis identification, one possibility is, it might be that the lufwaffe aircraft that crashed later into Lundy cliffs, HE-III, III/KG27, 1G+FL, Wn3837, hence the lack of a combat report or claim as the luftwaffe a/c never returned, and I think all the crew might have been killed in the crash.

on the other hand.....
any hampdens around at that time ....

[/quote]

cheers
jerry

Re: LUFTWAFFE CLAIM FOR WESTLAND WHIRLWIND P6989
 

I./NJG 2 made no claims between 18.03.41 and 04.04.41.

Re: LUFTWAFFE CLAIM FOR WESTLAND WHIRLWIND P6989
 

Niall / Chris / Jerry / CJE:

Many thanks for all your contributions to this thread. It is proving extremely interesting and of great benefit. I never expected ro receive so much help when I posted my original enquiry!

With kind regards - Malcolm.

Re: LUFTWAFFE CLAIM FOR WESTLAND WHIRLWIND P6989
 

Unless I have missed something, there seems to have been no suggestion that the aircraft was from one of the reconnaissance units. Shouldn't their claims be checked?

Re: LUFTWAFFE CLAIM FOR WESTLAND WHIRLWIND P6989
 

Hi All,
Just a passing thought ,

anyone able to post the official 'losses and damaged' returns, for the luftwaffe units for this date.

cheers
Jerry

Re: LUFTWAFFE CLAIM FOR WESTLAND WHIRLWIND P6989
 

Hi
no excuses just a bump,

anyone able to post the lutwaffe twin engine losses/damaged for the 01 april 1941.

cheers
Jerry

Re: LUFTWAFFE CLAIM FOR WESTLAND WHIRLWIND P6989
 

Hi Malcolm

The following comes from 263's ORB

April has been marked by a succession of tragedies. On the 1st., F/L Crooks DFC was killed. He was in company with S/L Donaldson near the Lizard when a Do.215 was sighted. S/L Donaldson engaged and damaged it. F/L Crooks crashed in flames and was killed. From eyewitness accounts, it appears that he was shot down by the Dornier but S/L Donaldson did not see him after giving the "Tally-Ho". On the 20th., F/O Howe was killed as a result of an accident whilst on a visit to Wittering aerodrome, and on the 30th., P/O Milligan was killed as a result of an accident at Aldermaston. They were all 3 experienced pilots, and their loss is felt very heavily. There were 3 encounters with the enemy during the month, on the 1st., the 6th., and the 7th., but unfortunately no confirmed victory could be claimed. On the 10th. we left Portreath and moved to Filton where the Squadron was originally formed in 1939. Since then the Operational flying has been limited to all intents and purposes to convoy patrols in the Bristol Channel.

1st.
P6998 S/L A.H. Donaldson Patrol 1835 - 1915
P6989 F/L D.A.C. Crooks DFC Patrol 1835 - KIA

A Do.215 was intercepted north of the Lizard. S/L Donaldson attacked and damaged it. F/L Crooks crashed in flames near Helston and was killed. It appears that he was shot down by the Dornier, but S/L Donaldson did not see him after giving the "Tally-Ho".

Kind regards

Paul

Re: LUFTWAFFE CLAIM FOR WESTLAND WHIRLWIND P6989
 

Hello Paul:

Many thanks for this/ It is very helpful. However, I am no closer to being able to positively identify the Luftwaffe aircraft involved.

Kind regards – Malcolm.

Re: LUFTWAFFE CLAIM FOR WESTLAND WHIRLWIND P6989
 

Hi All

no excuses just a bump of an old thread from the depths .......

Anyone able to post the luftwaffe twin engine losses or info on any damaged aircraft for the 01 april 1941.

cheers
Jerry

Re: LUFTWAFFE CLAIM FOR WESTLAND WHIRLWIND P6989
 

Jerry: I am afraid that nothing leaps out whilst the Luftflotte 3 reports for 1 Apr 41 are unavailable

Re: LUFTWAFFE CLAIM FOR WESTLAND WHIRLWIND P6989
 

Hi Chris,
Thanks for looking.
Maybe one day the info will turn up somewhere.
Cheers
Jerry

Re: LUFTWAFFE CLAIM FOR WESTLAND WHIRLWIND P6989
 

Hi all,
Just another bump from the depths,
As another year has passed already !! and you never know some new info could have come to light somewhere,( he says hopefully).
cheers
Jerry

Re: LUFTWAFFE CLAIM FOR WESTLAND WHIRLWIND P6989
 

Jerry

The way I see it, there is a high probabillity there is no claim from German point of view. The rear-gunner simply may not have been aware that he had hit anything. Donaldson was on his tail and no doubt any sane gunner would concentrate his vision (and aim) at THAT Whirlwind and not the other one which he may or may not have realised he had hit. Since Donaldson never saw Crook go down it would be reasonable to think that Crook was behind Donaldson's vision and who knows the rear-gunner might have hit Crook by "mistake" while shooting at Donaldson. As the leader of the two, Donaldson surely was in the lead and Crook following and I am also very positive about a certain tunnelvision from a rear-gunner facing a Whirlwind boring in with full power. From Foreman's 1941 part 1 it also is said the "Do 215" hid in clouds as soon as it possibly could, making any further looking for enemy aeroplane(s) hit impossible.

With regard to aicraft ID, I believe the ID of a Do 215 is fairly accurate. This was an interception, remember, and not a melée with umpteenth aeroplanes in the air. Donaldson could concentrate on what he saw and to me such ID is much more reliable than during big dog fights. Aeroplane could then have been as stated a Do 215, but also of course a Do 17 or a Me 110. Sounds logical if this was a recce machine homeward bound.

Cheers
Stig

Re: LUFTWAFFE CLAIM FOR WESTLAND WHIRLWIND P6989
 

I think the Do 215 was quite a rare aircraft over the Uk compared to all the Ju88s and He111s and I think more Do215s were claimed as shot down that were built especially during the BoB!

Re: LUFTWAFFE CLAIM FOR WESTLAND WHIRLWIND P6989
 

Hi Guys,
Thanks for the info/thoughts, seems it may never be solved then.
cheers
Jerry

Re: LUFTWAFFE CLAIM FOR WESTLAND WHIRLWIND P6989
 

Hi all,
Another bump from the depths, just incase some new info could have turned up.
cheers
Jerry

Re: LUFTWAFFE CLAIM FOR WESTLAND WHIRLWIND P6989
 

Hi
Time for a bump
just in case there is anything new about the DO 215
cheers
jerry

Re: LUFTWAFFE CLAIM FOR WESTLAND WHIRLWIND P6989
 

All I found in the area were three losses of He111s of I/KG27. 1Q+FL crashed Lundy 1800hrs. following engine trouble 2 killed, 1 died, 2 Pows, 1G+LH attacked by fighters ( Hurricanes 316 Sqd. ?) 5 crew interned following crashlanding County Wexford 1718hrs., 1G+HL fell to Hurricanes of 79 Sqd. off St.David's Head Pembrokeshire 1805hrs 3 killed 2 Pows.

Re: LUFTWAFFE CLAIM FOR WESTLAND WHIRLWIND P6989
 

Hi Brian,
thanks for the times on the heinkels, combat took place at 18.55, so ar least it eliminates them
cheers
jerry

Re: LUFTWAFFE CLAIM FOR WESTLAND WHIRLWIND P6989
 

Good morning to all.

While researching about the loss of a certain pilot, I came up through the information that several HISPANO 20mm guns (most particularly the first series - Mark I) had failures and/or stoppages.
http://www.quarryhs.co.uk/US404.htm

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=17075

In my particular case, it seems that the panels of the wing of a Hurricane were blown off, putting the aircraft on an inverted situation, at low level, from which the pilot did not recover (or had time to bail out). Some believe that the 20mm cartridge exploded into the chamber, due to a stoppage or malfunction.

I read somewhere else that the HISPANOS 20mm guns were "temperamental" and it depended on the kind and quality of maintenance, to keep them working properly.

I would like to veer the thread to another possibility: some kind of malfunction of the Hispano 20mm guns, of Whirlwind P6989; which may have resulted in the loss of the aircraft and pilot; considering the guns were placed on the nose of the aircraft, it may have resulted in disorientation, wounds to the pilot, etc..

Is there any kind of records on the ORB that suggests problems with the HISPANOS within 263 Squadron? (failures, etc..)

Quoting from the second site: "Tremendous skill and responsibility was required by squadron armourers. Considerable technical knowledge was essential, and very few stoppages were attributed to poor maintenance or servicing. Many modifications were introduced at squadron level. The recoil distance of the Hispano was critical for trouble-free firing. After one round was fired into the stop butts, the recoil distance had to be 20 mm (0.78 in) when cold. This proved to be very difficult to measure, until an armourer discovered that, if a piece of Plasticine was pressed on to the end of the piston so that it came into contact with the front face of the feed unit after firing, the recoil could be measured by using calipers on the resulting indentation."

This (or another kind of) MECHANICAL FAULT is another probability, that I would like to hilight. Of course, most of us do try to atribute RAF losses to LW claims and vice-versa, but sometimes it is a bit more complicated, being merely a mechanical loss, or disorientation of the pilot, G-LOC, etc...

Yours, must humble and sincerely,
Adriano Silva Baumgartner

Re: LUFTWAFFE CLAIM FOR WESTLAND WHIRLWIND P6989
 

Hi
I missed your reply, thanks for the suggestion.
cheers
jerry

Re: LUFTWAFFE CLAIM FOR WESTLAND WHIRLWIND P6989
 

Hi
Just a bump incase any new info turned up
cheers J