8-8-44 Iii/jg3 In Combat With 19 Sqn ?
 

Hi

Can anyone tell me how John Foreman in his book FCWD 5, came to the conclusion that III/JG3 were prob/pos in combat with 19 Sqn on the 8-8-44 ?

If they were could they have flown an escort mission for NAGr14(WHO I think were involved) ?

BTW I am trying to pin down the Me109's that 19 Sqn claimed(3-1-0) between 18:20-20:00 in the Chartres area. So any help would be just great.

In Prien's book on III/JG3(any idea if/when an English ed is coming out?)he says:-
Quote from Prien’s book:-

III./JG 3 – 8. August 1944

Also what was left of II./JG 3 was involved in supporting the German army but without any result they lost two Me’s in air combat and three more were damaged in accidents.In the afternoon the unit experienced a low level attack by a dozen P-51’s and 3 P-47’s and as no Flak protection was available, the Americans systematically strafed the whole field.

At the end the results were horrifying as 8 Me’s were burned out and 7 more heavily damaged together with one destroyed AR 96, two destroyed lorries and one completely burned out fuel car and not to mention the destruction among tents, tools, parachutes and all that was necessary to operate. The rsults were that two staffeln were no longer existing and it was small wonder that only 4 groundcrew were listed as wounded. (cheers wim)

I HAVE this as happening on the 7-8-44, which is right ?
who was the U.S. UNIT that attacked JG3 ?

As I have have not been able to get out for three days, so can not get the the NA(PRO) I have a bacterial infection(yes its bad) now I'am baberling.
Thanks for any help or views on this matter.
David

Re: 8-8-44 Iii/jg3 In Combat With 19 Sqn ?
 

David - this is a bit late in the day but I have a question about the incident you describe. I'm researching a Jedburgh mission (Pedlar) in which it's claimed that in August 1944 an air strike was called down on "the Udet squadron" and it was "exterminated".

The Pedlar group was in the Marne department at a village called Bouzy near Chalons-sur-Marne. There are a couple of airfields in the vicinity - Mourmelon, Vatry, and Plivot.

The raid described in your post sounds as though it might have been the one called down by the Pedlar group. Oddly enough the Jedburgh report says that the strike was at Tours - a couple of hundred miles away. But perhaps that's a local name I haven't come across yet.

Do you know which airfield was attacked? Or can anybody else help? Also, what is the full title of the book you mention?

Thanks very much for any info you can give on this.

Chris

Re: 8-8-44 Iii/jg3 In Combat With 19 Sqn ?
 

Jean Bernard-Frappé's La Luftwaffe face au Débarquement Allié has this happening on the 7th.

I have the attached Jagdkorps II daily report for the 8th and there's no mention of anything so serious that day. I don't have anything for the 7th which doesn't mean there's not something there of course (try National Archives HW5/555 – 557).

Re: 8-8-44 Iii/jg3 In Combat With 19 Sqn ?
 

Thanks Nick

I shall look at the decrypts tomorrow when at the NA's.

Since I posted my question I've discovered that the airfield was almost certainly Plivot which is a few kms east of Epernay and quite close to the Jedburgh base at Bouzy. The "Tours" mentioned by the Jedburgh group is Tours-sur-Marne which is just across the Marne from Plivot airfield.

I think Jean-Bernard Frappe may have the date wrong. Although the Jedburgh report doesn't give the date of the attack on the Udet (assuming it happened), my guess is that it was a bit later than the 7th Aug and earlier than the 31st August.

Next time I'm in France I shall try to get a second-hand copy of Frappe's book - it may have a checkable reference for the attack. I suppose the other possibility is the records of the USAAF unit which carried out the supposed attack. Also possibly the Allied Expeditionary Airforce records which would have been notified of the presence of the Udet even if AEAF aircraft didn't carry it out. Unfortunately the Jedburgh telegrams are a bit patchy so that probably won't help.

If I find anything I'll let you know.

Thanks again

Chris

Re: 8-8-44 Iii/jg3 In Combat With 19 Sqn ?
 

Having done several internet searches on this, I've discovered that the modern Plivot airfield was a postwar replacement for an airfield at nearby Athis which ws thoroughly wrecked and not economically viable to rebuild.

There are several German websites about Jg3 - all saying that ii/Jg3 was based at Athis from10th-22nd August 1944. None mention the attack in question but the dates and location are right for the Jedburgh mission I'm interested in. Two of the sites seem to be saying that the 4th staffel no longer existed after Athis - so that might be significant (my German and knowledge of the Luftwaffe are not good enough to be sure). eg http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/...hwader/JG3.htm You will know if this is a reliable source.

But it least it gives me a date range to work on. As I suspected the Jedburgh report was exaggerated - the Udet wasn't "exterminated". At most a relatively small part of it was destroyed during a raid on Athis airfield. Now I need some documentary evidence for this.

By the way, is the book Paul mentions "Jagdgeschwader 3 "Udet" in World War II: II./JG 3 in Action with the Messerschmitt Bf 109" by Joachim Prien?

Re: 8-8-44 Iii/jg3 In Combat With 19 Sqn ?
 

Hi.

I have checked the losses reported for III./JG 3 for the entire month of August 1944, and the only date where there were considerable losses of aircraft on the ground were August 7th.

A total of 10 aircraft (Bf 109G-6) reported as destroyed (damage 55% +) and 5 aircraft (Bf 109G-6) damaged (damage 10% - 55%)

So I guess Dr Prien may have made an error and Jean Bernard-Frappé got the date right.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: 8-8-44 Iii/jg3 In Combat With 19 Sqn ?
 

Could we establish whether we are talking about II./JG 3, III./JG 3 or both?

For what it's worth, on 9 August II. Jagdkorps ordered several units to transfer to Germany for rest and refit. The flying elements of JG included in this were the 1. Staffel, the II. Gruppe.

For the rest of JG 3, "if the situation may involve an endangering of the present operational area" they were to transfer to Vraux, Vertus, Connantre and Champfleury.

Re: 8-8-44 Iii/jg3 In Combat With 19 Sqn ?
 

Hi, Nick.

FYI the II. Gruppe did not report a single aircraft lost on the ground in August 1944.

The I. Gruppe reported a single aircraft damaged on the ground on August 6 th.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: 8-8-44 Iii/jg3 In Combat With 19 Sqn ?
 

All the fields you mention are in the vicinity of Chalons which is the area I'm interested in. Although Athis / Tours is is not included in the list, Vraux was very close by.

The date you give is what I would expect. It also fits with accounts which have the Udet in the Chalons area from the 10th to 22nd August.

I've no idea which wing of Jg3 the Jedburgh group was talking about - I doubt if they knew either.

If either of the two writers mentioned in previous posts are correct with their dates then the ground attack would have taken place before the from Jg3 moved to the Chalons area.

I hope to find something this afternoon at the NAs which helps with this but I'm not holding my breath.

Re: 8-8-44 Iii/jg3 In Combat With 19 Sqn ?
 

Hello all,

Checked my records on this - difficult matter.

As from 15 Aug 44 the following Staffeln belonged to II./JG 3:
5./JG 3 (no change)
6./JG 3 (no change)
7./JG 3 (old 4./JG 3)
8./JG 3 (old 4./JG 52)

II./JG 3 was at Nogent-le-Roi from 30 June 44 - 10 Aug 44 and at Athis from 10 Aug 44 - 22 Aug 44. On 20 Aug 44 II./JG 3 had received orders to withdraw to Germany.

On 8 Aug 44 4./JG 3 Uffz Karl Clauß was wounded when his Me 109 was "ausgebrochen" during the start at Mauzaize.

On 25 June 44 Evreux-Fauville was attacked and during this allied mission II./JG 3 lost 10 Me 109 on the ground.

Can somebody please share the allied report on attacking the Udet unit with me. Thank you.

Best regards,
Rob

Re: 8-8-44 Iii/jg3 In Combat With 19 Sqn ?
 

Rob

by "allied report" I assume you mean the Jedburgh mission. Well, the Special Operations Executive had an operation in the Marne during July/Aug 1944. It was called Pedlar - a stange mission made up of 2 SOE agents and three Jedburghs. The Pedlar group split up. The Jedburghs went to the Haute-marne to do what Jedburghs did - training the resistance, blowing things up, etc. The SOE agents went to the Marne and set up a base in the village of Bouzy which is close to several airfields in the Chalons area - one of which was Athis /Tours-sur-Marne where it looks as though II/Jg3 was based for a short time in August 1944. III/Jg3 was based, from what I've read elsewhere, at Chalons.

The agent's report is a bit hazy about dates but I think he was at Bouzy from about 8th August until end August by which time the area had been over-run by the US 3rd Army.

In the Pedlar report on operations written by the SOE agent he says the following:

"As a result of our request the RAF carried out a most effective bombing both of TOURS airfield, where the Udet fighter squadron was based, and was largely exterminated, and of Von Kluge's HQ at VERZEY. Von Kluge himself had a miraculous escape by the simple proccess of letting his other officers be killed and taking a remaining staff car and driving it himself rapidly into the countryside."

For various reasons I'm suspicious about the SOE agent concerned - hence my interest in verifying this and other aspects of his report. The Von Kluge incident stacks up although the agent is wrong about some of the detail. For example, The air attack on HQ OB West was carried out by aircraft from the USAAF (using napalm apparently) on the 25th August – a week after Von Kluge committed suicide whilst on the way to Germany (HQ OB West had moved to Verzy on the same day) and Von Kluge’s replacement, Field Marshall Model, was probably not at Verzey on the 25th August.

That's all I knew until contacting this site which, incidentally, I've used before and find extremely impressive. I looked at some material in the NAs today but it didn't take me any further forward.

Chris

Re: 8-8-44 Iii/jg3 In Combat With 19 Sqn ?
 

Gentlemen,

according to my copy of the Notizen zur Geschichte der III./JG 3, based on the Gruppen KTB of III./JG 3, which were compiled by Karl-Heinz Langer, the low level attacks discussed here, took place on August 7th, 1944. So it seems to be a matter of conjecture, which of the various sources is correct and which is wrong.

Regards

Jochen Prien

Re: 8-8-44 Iii/jg3 In Combat With 19 Sqn ?
 

Well, I think that seems to settle the matter. As I understand it the world experts on the Udet are saying:-

1) An attack on occurred on III./JG3 on the 7th August in which it was severely damaged. It was not based in the Chalons area when the attack happened.

2) II./JG 3 was based at Athis/ Tours-sur-marne from 10th - 20th August. It suffered no significant damage from air attacks during that time.

Therefore, the report from the Pedlar mission that it called down an RAF air attack on Athis/Tours-sur-marne in which the Udet was "exterminated" cannot be correct.

The only other explanation I can think of is that another Luftwaffe unit (JG 76?) occupied Athis after II./JG 3 left on the 20th. It was that unit which was attacked from the air. The Pedlar agent was, therefore, wrong to say that the Udet had been "exterminated"

Alternatively, the agent made the whole thing up which knowing what I do about him is quite possible.

Thank you everybody for taking the time to share your extremely impressive knowledge of the Luftwaffe with me. If anything occurs to you which may be relevant I'd be really grateful to hear about it