Help with Tunisian grid reference please
 

Hi

I have a grid reference, QU 2953 but i'm having trouble finding it using the luftwaffe Gradnetz system.

I know it is for late December 1942 and is from 5.(pz)/Sch.G.1 who were operating around the El Aouina, Tunisia area. I believe QU 2953 isn't a complete code but can the area mentioned help with the missing details?

If any of you can help with completing the missing sections of the grid referance i would be very pleased. The more i try to read descriptions of how the codes work, the more i confuse myself!

Many Thanks in advance

Ben

Re: Help with Tunisian grid reference please
 

I can't locate the place for you but I don't think there's anything wrong with the reference you have, it just doesn't use the later fighter grid - that wasn't introduced until 1 June 1943.

The "QU" bit isn't the square between "QT" and "QV" (as it would be in the later system), rather it stands for "Quadrat" or grid square.

Re: Help with Tunisian grid reference please
 

Re: Help with Tunisian grid reference please
 

Hi

I see that FrankieS probably have been using my website, and added the 03 Ost prefix which would seem to be correct, the 13 Ost also being quite probable as the location given for the target for the operation would be in 13 Ost.

However, in my opinion the grid given should be checked again (what is the source for it anyway? Loss record, KTB?), as both the proposed prefixes would make this aircraft firmly plunging into the Mediterrenean sea, quite a bit north of the proposed operation area.

Best regards,
Andreas B

Re: Help with Tunisian grid reference please
 

Hi Andreas !

... used my LUMA, by the way ... ;-)

bye to Norway

Re: Help with Tunisian grid reference please
 

Hehe... should have thought as much...

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Help with Tunisian grid reference please
 

Thanks guys

It is from a loss report and shouldn't be in the Med, i'll do some checking.

I kept getting the med position which is one of the reasons i thought i was doing something wrong.

Thanks

Ben

Re: Help with Tunisian grid reference please
 

I've checked and the area is descibed as 25km south-west of pont-du-fahs and should be 40-50km behind the front lines.

could grid Qu 2953 have been miss read? and would another similar one fit the bill?

Thanks

Ben

Re: Help with Tunisian grid reference please
 

Hi Ben !

A point 25km south-west of pont-du-fahs
would have the following Gradnetz-Meldeverfahren
designation:

03 Ost 97823 lo

Would it be possible that Qu 2953 is based on a
different map system (maybe Wehrmacht) ?

bye,
FrankieS

Re: Help with Tunisian grid reference please
 

I had assumed that as the loss was of an aircraft the grid would be luftwaffe !

do you know where can i check to see if it is from a differant system?

Ben

Re: Help with Tunisian grid reference please
 

Hi.

What details do you really have with regards to this loss Ben? The only late December 1942 losses I have that could be related to 5./Schl.G.1 was later corrected to being related to II./St.G.3 (one Ju 87 on 22.12.1942 and one Ju 87 on 27.12.1942). No trace of an QU reference with regards to these losses, they are both noted as being at Pantelleria.

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=116001

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=116002

So if the one you are talking about was on another date or another WNr, please let me know and I will look for it.

mvh
Andreas B

Re: Help with Tunisian grid reference please
 

Hi

The detail i have to hand are Hs 129B-2 W.Nr. 0269 4.(pz)/Sch.G.1. hit by AA fire map grid Qu.2953. 100% destroyed.

Thanks

Ben

Re: Help with Tunisian grid reference please
 

4.(Pz)./Sch.G. 1 was operating on the Eastern Front as of Dec42

However 4.(Pz)./Sch.G. 2 was in the MTO during Dec42

Best Regards

Andy Fletcher

Re: Help with Tunisian grid reference please
 

The W.nr 0269 was loss on 27Dec42 belonged to Oblt. Franz Oswald 4.(Pz)/Sch.G 1. He sated that he went down in a lake near the road. He evaded French troops to get back to German lines.
Hope that helps,
Michael

Re: Help with Tunisian grid reference please
 

44 Ost 2953 is ~60 nautical miles ENE of Tazinskaya (~120 nautical miles WSW of Stalingrad) where 4.(Pz)./Sch.G. 1 was based at the time.

Best Regards

Andy Fletcher

Re: Help with Tunisian grid reference please
 

Wasn't Franz Oswald St.Kap. 8.(Pz)/Sch.G. 2 at this time? This would tie in as 8.(Pz)/Sch.G. 2 was based at El Aouina (having been formed from 5./Sch.G. 1 during Dec42)

Re: Help with Tunisian grid reference please
 

Hs129 Panzerjaeger by Martin Pegg has the loss on the 27Dec42 with that W.nr with that grid but has the 4 staffel. The text has the unit as 5./Sch.G 1 for Oswald. It changed to 8.(Pz)/Sch.G 2 in Jan43. The Hs-129b-2's were from the Henschel factory that the unit picked up in Oct42 before going to Africa.

Re: Help with Tunisian grid reference please
 

Hi.

All the losses for these dates are reported as being under control of Luftflotte 4 in the east.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Help with Tunisian grid reference please
 

Oswald stated that they were returning to the east front when they were given new orders to Africa. He stated that 10 of his pilots were sent to assist another unit in Sep42 per Hitler's order. There is another Hs-129 listed as loss on 28Dec42 with that same grid 2953 (Wnr. 0286 with the unit again as 4.(Pz)/Sch.G 1. The one loss on the 22Dec42 Wnr. 0315 8/(Pz)/SchG 2 was shoot down by fighters 15 km NW of Kairouan, pilot Uffz Heinz Gustav Frohlich was KIA.

Re: Help with Tunisian grid reference please
 

Hi

Thanks guys, yes i have Oswald as the pilot but the stated grid of Qu 2953 is still a mystery, did the ground forces use a seperate code and could the Hs 129's be using this code because of their ground attack role ?

Thanks

Ben

Re: Help with Tunisian grid reference please
 

According to the Flugzeugbestand und Bewegungsmeldungen for 8.(Pz)/Sch.G. 2 it was formed in Dec42, maybe the official re-designation didn't "catch" up with the unit until Jan43.

http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/schlacht/b8schg2.html

http://www.ww2.dk/oob/bestand/schlacht/biischg1.html

Either way be it 5./Sch.G. 1 or 8.(Pz)/Sch.G. 2 it certainly wasn't 4.(Pz)/Sch.G. 1 as this unit was definitely on the southern sector of the Eastern Front at this time.

Best Regards

Andy Fletcher

Re: Help with Tunisian grid reference please
 

Quite possibly. The grid used by NSG 9 in Italy was different from that used by the fighters and I think somewhere I have seen an Allied reference to a "bomber grid."

It would make sense to use the same grid as the ground forces if you were supporting them - not that things always make sense, of course.

Re: Help with Tunisian grid reference please
 

Hi.

Time to conclude I feel. Have gone through the 20 odd losses sustained by Schl.G.1 during December 1942, I cannot find any evidence that the unit lost aircraft in the Mediterrenean during this month. All losses (except a couple of Ju 87's that are erronously registered as being Schl.G.1 and later corrected to St.G.3) are filed under the command structure of Luftflotte 4 and Luftwaffenkommando Don, both commanding units on the eastern front. Also, all the aircraft losses that are connected to a named location are eastern front.

So, I do not believe until other information can prove this to be wrong that the original question asked by Ben has anything to do with the North African area of operations, and in that context the Pl.Qu. is valid, and as mentioned earlier in the thread located in the area the unit operated on the eastern front at the time.

If this Oswald was the pilot of the aircraft mentioned for Dec 27th 1942, he went down in the east and not in Africa.

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Help with Tunisian grid reference please
 

Hi,

On 27 December 1942 5./S.G. 1 flew an armed reconnaissance mission with eight Hs 129s to the area 25 km south-west of Pont du Fahs in Tunisia. Five vehicles were destroyed by the Hs 129s, and many more were damaged.

The Staffelkapitaen, Oblt. Oswald, was shot down on a Stausee (resorvoir) 20 km south-west of Pont du Fahs.

Search missions were sent out on the 27th for Oblt. Oswald, but had no luck that day.

Oblt. Oswald returned to his unit with friendly troops on 28 December 1942.

5./S.G. 1 was soon to become 8./S.G. 2, but in December 1942 the Staffel was still being referred to as 5./S.G. 1.

Source: BA-MA RL 7/31, pp.97 & 105

Cheers,
Andrew A.