Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44
 

On the 17Oct44 the Groupie Normandie came to the rescue of a group of Pe-2 of the 135 GBAP east of Gumbinnen that had just bombed the R.R. station at Trakhenen. Sous Lt Charles Miquel and Sous Lt Maurice Challe shot down two Bf-109's. Does anyone know the times that they shot them down and if it was from JG52? I don't know if JG51 was flying any Bf-109's at that time.
Best Regards,
Michael

Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44
 

The time was 1200 according to the Journal de Marche, page 117. Challe's claim was at 10 km E of Goumbinen, Schurguponen, while Miquel's was 5 km S of Goumbinnen. I have no idea of the German unit involved.

Frank.

Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44
 

Hi Michael,

I'm not sure whether this is just a coincidence but Oberleutnant Toni Hafner of 8.JG 51 (Knight's Cross with Oak leaves) was shot down that day in East Prussia near to Schweizersfelde. He was flying Bf 109G-6 442013 Black 1.
Now talking to Horst Petzschler about this incident he has always insisted that it was elements from Groupie Normandie that were responsible for shooting Hafner down. I have tried to locate Schweizersfelde but have been unable to do so, although i know exactly where Gumbinnen is in East Prussia. Is it a coincidence, i don't know but worth thinking about. Hope it helps.

Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44
 

Thanks for the replies. I can't find anything in Tony Woods Lists to match the 12:00 time frame even it it was using Moscow time. The source I read stated that M.Lt Vasilli Koval's Pe-2 went down after the French pilots arrived. Kovals died but his crew bailed. Anton Hafner shot down a Pe-2 in that area at 04:47 and a Yak-7 at 09:55. I know the claims at Tony woods list aren't complete. The 09.55 would be close using Berlin time compared to Moscow time. The source I read didn't give a time for the bomber raid just that they made the rescue.
Thanks again,
Michael

Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44
 

Hello Nokose!
I am with the book of Christian-Jacques Ehrengardt published by Éditions Heimdal in France. On pg 51 we do have a fairly good account of the activities of Normandie-Niemen on 17th October:
The first mission took place around 9:00h. Sky 4/5 covered. Cmdt. Pouyade led 31 Yak 3 + 2 Yak 9 to escort 54 Pe-2 + 18 A-20 Boston to an area around Eydtkunnen ( north of Goritten, some 30km ESE of Stalluponen ). Schoendorff got a Bf 109 ( I will only quote the Bf 109 claims, ok ? )
Around 12:00h Maurice Challe and Miquel got one Bf 109 apiece
It seems that JG 51 los 3 young new pilots and Oblt Anton Hafner - which, according to the book ( pg.53 ) hit a tree while chasing a Yak 9, very close to Schweizerfelde ( this one I did not find on the map ).
I do hope this will add a bit more to the picture. So, it seems Hafner was involved on the afternoon mission of Normandie-Niemen.

Friendly yours

Adriano

Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44
 

Adriano, Thanks for your reply. Did Groupie Normandie suffer any losses in planes (loss or damaged during this day)? Schweizersfelde is the next location to the southwest of Puspern.
Thanks again,
Michael

Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44
 

According to 'French Eagles, Soviet Heroes' by J.D Clarke the two Bf109's shot down by Challe and Miquel were claimed in the Goumbinnen region during a patrol launched at 12.30.

One aircraft (flown by Aspirant Jean Emonet) was shotdown during a mission (launched at 09.20) to escort three groups of Pe2's. Two aircraft (flown by Aspirnat Miquel Lorillon and Aspirnat Gael Taburet) are noted as being damaged during the day, though it is not clear during which of the regiments clashes this occured.

Regards

Steve Pegge

Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44
 

Emonet: during the mission starting at 09.20.
Lorillon: rammed a Fw, crash-landed inverted! - mission starting at 14.00
Taburet: nothing on him on that day.

Re: Groupe Normandie on 17Oct44
 

While looking at the losses in Tony Woods list it seems that 2/JG52 was in that area. Does anyone know if the grid for them on the 17Oct44 is further to the south in Rumania? If not this is probably also a unit that Groupe Normandie engaged this date.

Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44
 

Hi,

they were between 17.10 and 19.10.44 in Trakehnen.
On the 17.10 at 08.00 hours Olt.Trenkel shot down one Pe-2. But few moments later he and his wingman - OFhr.Windisch- were chased by fighter escort (Jak-3). Both were shot down but Windisch was yet able to shot down one russian fighter (at 08.05 hours). Trenkel emergency-landed (belly-landed) and Windisch bailed out - both in the Ebenrode area.

Robert

Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44
 

According to other sources the engagamant took place on 16/10 : the german fighters shot down 2 Bostons before being themselves both shot down by the escort fihgters, Windisch being shot down by Soviet pilots and Trenkel by French pilot Maurice Challe.

No losses are mentioned among escort fighters.

for an account, in French, of the engagement see :

http://mairie.orange.fr/frenchaces/as/m+c.html

Hope this can help you,

Kolya.

PS : Trenkel was reportedly shot down as many as five times in october 1944, while scoring 12 additionnal victories (he was already past 100 victories at the time...).

Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44
 

Sorry but no losses on the German side on the 16.10.44. On this day the I/JG52 moved over from Ziechenau to Insterburg.
No information about air combat with Bostons. Olt.Trenkel bailed out twice on the 15.10.44 and belly-landed on the 17.10.44. No other information`s in loss list about him in October 1944.
Source: B.Barbas "Die Geschichte der I.Gruppe des Jagdgeschwader 52".

Robert

Re: Groupe Normandie on 17Oct44
 

Thanks for the verification on JG52 being in the area. According to Tony Woods list it was Ofw Walter Jahnke who shot down the Yak3 at 08:05. From the description it sounds like the incident but not far south 9/JG51 was engaging and claimed a Pe2 and a Yak9. Earlier Steve wrote that one a/c was shot down and two damaged. If Emonet was flying one of the Yak9's he would have been in the area of 9/JG51. The two Boston III's were claimed in the next intercept by Nehrig (1/JG52). So does anyone if Emonet was in a Yak3 or Yak9 to verify his position in this incident?

Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44
 

Emonet was shot down when escorting Bostons and Pe-2s during the first mission of the day. No idea of the type he was flying.
And could the German pilots make the difference between a Yak-3 and a 9 in the heat of a dogfight?

Re: Groupe Normandie on 17Oct44
 

Probably not all of them but there was a captured Yak3 touring the airfields during 1944 (as confirmed in "The German Fighter Units over Russia" by Werner Held page 183) so there is always the chance for correct id. The incident involving the JG52 does sound like the correct story that I was searching for on the 17th.

Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44
 

Ha! The Germans couldn't tell a La-5 from a La-7.
Do you think they were able to spot that the Yak they were fighting out had no intercooler intake under the nose? That's just another urban legend introduced by William Green.

Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44
 

I located another part of the story. Nikolai Danilushkin (Radio operator-Gunner) and Stepan Fiippovich Yakubov (Navigator) after parachuting were covered by the Yak3 flown by Jean Emonet. After his Yak3 was shot down they landed in "No Man's Land". Emonet was wounded in the arm and both legs. Yakubov carried him back to Russian lines under fire for treatment.
Also another Pe2 was shot down that day flown by Lt Nikolai Petrovich Vorobyev who made a forced landing.
Thanks for the help,
Michael

Re: Groupe Normandie on 17Oct44
 

On the first post I had the target of the 135 GBAP listed as the railroad station at Trakhenen but the correct location is Eydkunen.

Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44
 

As Adriano Baumgartner already stated in this thread, Mr. Hafner was not shot down but died due to hitting the ground (a tree?) during a lowlevel-dogfight.

Concerning JG52: Yes, they were in the area. There even exists a PK-report about some fights with Yak-3's. If I find it, I'll post some details.

Re: Groupe Normandie on 17Oct44
 

Groupe Normandie had six Yak-3's up on patrol at 14:00 (Moscow) in the area of Gumbinnen when they saw 40 bomb laden FW190's approaching the lines. They moved into position and attacked. The 18 GIAP also attacked this formation.
Sous Lt Roger Sauvage claimed 1 FW190 and 1 probable FW190
Lt Col. Pierre Pouyade FW190 Probable
Sous Lt Pierre Lorillon 2 FW190
Have no information on who the other three pilots.
18 GIAP
Kapt Nikolai Grigoyevich Pinchuk FW190
St.Lt. Vladimir Alexandrovich Balandin FW190
St. Lt. Grigorii Prokopyevich Repikhov FW190
Alexei A. Kalyuzhnyi FW190
Kapt Nikolai Nikitovich Danilenko FW190
Lt Nikolai Agalakov and Zakhariya Gogotoevich Margoev each chased a FW190 into the ground.
Which SG unit from the Luftwaffe was operating in this area and what were their losses?

Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44
 

In some projection it is easy to differ Yak-3 from Yak-9. Yak-3 (and later introduced Yak-9U) has no radio mast being the canopy. But during the fight... I don't belive the german pilots could deal with it :-)

Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44
 

If pilots would not have been able to identify, why should there have been the order to avoid "Yaks w/o oil cooler" below 5.000m?

Sure not everybody was able to identify, but some at least.

In this context, it is interesting that Lipfert did only notify that he fought a Yak-3 by its very good performance during his first DF with the type.

Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44
 

the order to avoid "Yaks w/o oil cooler" below 5.000m

Where have you seen such an order?

Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44
 

It is quoted in Lipfert's diary.

EDIT/Correction: It is not in this book. But it is somewhere ;)...

Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44
 

Hello Nokose, Yogibar and others!
I am following this thread with interest, although I am not an specialist on Eastern Front. These were the claims by Normandie on 17th October ( 14:00h mission ). I am not putting the other claims ( 09:20h mission + 12:00h mission ):
1- Aspirant Pierre Lorillon ( 2 fw 190 ) one S of Gumbinnen the other at Gumbinnen
2- Aspirant Charles Monier ( 1 FW 190 ) S of Gumbinnen
3- Aspirant Marcel Perrin ( 1 Fw 190 ) over or at Stalluponen
The losses for this 14:00h mission: only Aspirant Lorillon that collided with a Fw 190, lost 1,5 meters of his wing and crash landed.
Jean Emonet was shot down by a Bf 109 and wounded near Wirbalis earlier ( 09:29h mission ). He bailed out and was rescued by a Russian Tank Unit. It seems that he was sent for a Moscow´s Hospital, but we do not have an entry date for that.
On the other subject: YES, Challe was flying a YAK 3. Trenkel mentioned a Yak 9 on his report, after he was shot down, but the author ( Christian-Jacques Ehrengardt says that if he was not even able to identify the enemy he was fighting how could he be so sure - "catégorique"? ). Trenkel took off with two other Bf 109 : Fhr Walter Winsdich ( also shot down ) and Lt. August Rieckhoff, both from .2/ JG 52.
The SG unit seems to be either I/SG 1 or I/SG 4, because II/SG 4 only came to the theater of operations on 22nd October. I do not know if II or any Gruppe of SG 3 was, at this time, flew on the 17th around the area we are looking for...( Gumbinnen, Stalluponen, Eydtkunnen ). Anyone has any kind of information about that? It seems that I/ JG 52 moved to Ebenrode on the 15th October and the III/ JG 52 on the 17th to Trakehen. But this is an area for you Experts on Eastern Front...
Hope I have helped with more info...If I find more I will be glad to share with you guys. Sincere and friendly as ever
Adriano

Re: Groupe Normandie on 17Oct44
 

Adriano, Thank you for providing that information. Hopefully there is some one that has the losses for these units on that day. Also hopefully Yogybaer will be able to post some of those PK reports for dogfights with the Yak 3's. The 18 GIAP reported a total of 10 German aircraft destroyed on the 17th and I guess Groupe Normandie about the same or more.
Thanks again,
Michael

Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44
 

The PK-article states that Trenkel+Kaczmarek(Windisch)-Pe2 / Yak3-story. Additionally, it mentions another flight by Trenkel & Co later that day, on which 3 Yak3's are killed.

But this cannot be found on the claim list. Sorry, no new information :o.

Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44
 

Gents:

There is a little mistake it TW lists: we should read not 4:45 but 9:45.

So, Hafner had 2 claims in that combat: Pe-2 and Yak-9 (Emonet). After that he was cought up by NN Yaks.

Challe's claim was at 10 km E of Goumbinen, Schurguponen
http://maps.yandex.ru/-/CBaXR03K

Goumbinen now is Gusev (Гусев), and place in 10 km E of it called Puspern (in late 1800th), later (in early 1900th) - Tublauken/Schweizersfelde. Now it calls Lomovo (Ломово).

Seems, Challe never forgot himself for friendlyfire, when he killed an 12-victory ace Arkhipov of brother-regiment 18 giap (both NN and 18 giap were from 303 iad), and persued each enemy to the end.

Most likely, he engaged Hafner and followed him from 3km to ground level (where YaK-9 was faster and much more maneuvrable then Bf109G-6), and during low-level dogfigt Hafner crashed avoiding Challe's attack.

Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44
 

Some additional information found today at Tsamo (Russian archives).
After being parachuted, Emonet was rescued by a Russian aviator himself shot dead: Lieutenant Yakubov from the 135 GBAP. After identifying the regiment and controlled the fats I have searching for the destructive report of the Pe2 (Pilot Ltn KOVAL (dead), navigator ltn YAKUBOV, Radio-Gunner sgt DANILOUCHKIN (wooded) : serial number 8-192,
tIt's crashed down in the medeltrapez (Gradnetz) 25486 or 25495, ie 15 km southeast of Kirbataï. This is in line with the planned flight plan (bombing of Eydtkunen and front to the south of the city). And in the noman's land. The soviet's tank arrrived some tme after the crash.

The report indicates that the aircraft suffered several attacks from 9:49 am. The first fired the left engine, the second injured the gunner. After dropping his bombs on the German trenches the aircraft becoming uncontrollable the crew to the exception of the pilot jumped.
This may explain why there is no claim, since after the attacks the aircraft was consommeed as only damaged.

therefore Jean Enomet was shot down 10 km south-east of Kirbatai and not from Stallupönen or Gumbinen, by Lieutenant Leonhard Färber 3/JG52 at 8h43 (Berlin Time) medeltrapz 25456. (©)

Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44
 

Do you have details how Emonet was shooted down?
AFAIK he was suprised and havn't pointed who shot him down?

And in my opinion clame of Ludwig Strobel at 7:40 looks more relevant to Emonet according to time.

Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44
 

Hello,



Emonet was shooteed down by a Me 109 he had not seem.

For Ludwig Strobel :

7.10.44 Ofhr. Ludwig Strobel 9./JG 51 Yak-9 £ 25 623: at 1.500 m. 07.40 Film C. 2032/I Anerk: Nr. -



if the time is more concordant (I admit gladly being wrong in the hour), the location is much less favorable because 6 km south of the landing site of the pilot after his parachuting.
Knowing that the second shell has torn the half of one of the wings of the Yak that has entered a spin, the base must be in line with the fight.

After the locations of the fights are approximate ...

So for now, let's remember your hypothesis as most likely.

Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44
 

I didn't no why I didn't see it before but the best hypothesis is :

17 Oct 1944 Walter Jahnke 2./JG 52 Yak-3 500m 08:05 10h05 25454

The center of the squarre 25454 is 1,5 km to the north of the pace where was rescue Jean EMONET.

Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44
 

Hello, Courtois!
Your hypothesis is quite realistic. But its weak point is time and altitude. According to the 303rd IAD's sortie log, Albert's group took off 09:15, returned 09:57; Puyad's group: 09:15-10:02; Matras's group 09:35-10:05. I don't know exactly which group Emone was in, but he was probably shot down around 09:45-09:50. In addition, the height of the Jahnke victory is 500m, while his group was escorting Pe-2 at 3000 m. But again, theoretically it could have been Jahnke.
Another interesting point: according to T. Wood's list this victory was won by Walter Jahnke, while in B. Barbas’s book it is recorded for Ofhr. Windisch. I am very curious as to how accurately the data in the T. Wood lists is recognized (from handwrited or typed records??)? My opinion there may be a lot errors in the time, squares, heights data.

By the way, I just had an article about circumstances, in which A.Hafner was killed on 17 Oct 1944:
https://warspot.ru/12325-posledniy-den-antona-hafnera
Maybe you’ll find it interesting...

Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44
 

Hello guys

According to Mathews/Foreman, everything is faulse.
Jahnke did not claim anything on the day!
Windisch claimed a Yak-3 (08h05)near Turnu Romania!
michel

Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44
 

Hello, focusfocus!
There is one same claim. T. Wood gives it to W. Jahnke and Barbas gives it to Windisch.
Who is right? Did Mathews/Foreman have their source? or they just repeat Barbas? What is the name of Windisch?
By the way, the claim is not in Romania, but in East Prussia for sure.

Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44
 

Hello
NO it's in east prussia for SURE.

source:Mathews/Foreman

The last claim of Walter Jahnke is 08/16/44 at 2.25.p.m with 7/JG11 (53.)

Walter Windisch
15.10.44 2/JG52 Il.2 10km W Pristina 14h08 (first "abschus") Quadrat 13 345 (T.Woods)....wich correspond to Kosovo.

17/10/44 2/JG52 Yak-3 Turnu Severin Romania 08h05 (second "abschus")
nothing by T.Woods

Rudolf Trenkel
16/10/44 2/JG52 LaGG 20km ENE Trepca (Kosovo) Quadrat 13 126

17/10/44 2/JG52 Pe-2 Turnu Severin Romania 08h00 (Mathews) Quadrat 25 444 (Woods)

27/10/44 2/JG52 Yak-3 Majdanpek Serbia 15h10 (Mathews) Quadrat 25 583 (Woods)

The quadrat 25 ... does not correspond to Prussia.

Trenkel and Windisch were not in Prussia on 17/10/44...as well 2/JG52

the winner of Emonet is prob.Strobel...but it seems that the claims are not complete and confused.
Best Regards

Michel

Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44
 

Hello, Michel.
I'm afraid Mathews/Foreman are wrong. 25E quadrat is in East Prussia and Trenkel with I./JG 52 was there. It is well corresponding with claims of groups located in East Prussia in that time: III./JG 52, I, III./JG 51. I./JG 52 has been moved from Poland 16.10.1944. Among other things it is proved by Trenkel's memories.

Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44
 

Hello

This Quadrat (25...) story not corresponding with the sayings of Mathews/Foreman intrigued me and INDEED the assertions of those (claims in Serbie/Romania for I/JG52,III/JG52) are FALSE!

These contradict themselves:ex.
I qote:Walter Windisch was shot down by Yak on 10/17/44 near Ebenröde (Prussia,today Nesterov)... and at the same time,he claimed a Yak near Turnu Romania!!!! wow!! well then!!....same finding of impossibility for all the claims of the I/JG52,III/JG52 (Serbia/Kososvo/Romania) in october 44.

I had an "almost" blind faith in their recent work about "Experts",but now it's reduced.

michel

Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44
 

Fair's fair, I think they put their very best effort into the series and it IS a very good work. Every sources is going to have one or two issues but that's not enough to negate it.

Re: Groupie Normandie on 17Oct44
 

I don't deny their REMARKABLE work(I am unable to do THE SAME),however,approximations, sometimes surprised errors make me doubt.
michel