Hauptmann Gustav Rodel's G-4 help please
 

I have seen profiles of Hauptmann Gustav Rodel's BF109G-4 with and without a yellow bib.
Does anyone know if there are some "good" photographs available or at the least some reliable text on his AC? I also need his Works number too if possible.
I have his AC looking like this atm--->
http://premium1.uploadit.org/JeSTeRs//Rodels-G-4.jpg

Re: Hauptmann Gustav Rodel's G-4 help please
 

Hi,

I have a picture of this aircraft. I think the crop to be yellow.
If you send me your e-mail I was able to scanear this picture and to send you.
Hugs
E. Brettas
www.avesdobrasil.com.br

Re: Hauptmann Gustav Rodel's G-4 help please
 

There is a picture of the starboard side on page 248 in Luftwaffe Camouflage and Markings 1933-1945, Vol 2, K.A. Merrick.
Also published in other publications I believe.

Edit:
There is a similar but different photo of the starboard side on page 153 in 'Aircraft of the Luftwaffe Aces I, Bernd Barbas, Schiffer.

Here a P-40 is seen in the background, coded CY o ? Captioned as "Gustav Rödel's (Kommodore of JG 27) left back in Sicily"

Interestingly, the Swastika can not be seen on the tail on this picture! Censored?

Re: Hauptmann Gustav Rodel's G-4 help please
 

Aviation Elite Units 12, Jagdgeschwader 27 'Afrika', John Weal, Page 89:

Photo of port side. Caption is interesting as it casts some doubt on who actually flew this a c and where. Quote:

"0ften illustrated, and long thought to be the aircraft of 'Edu' Neumann's successor, Gustav Rödel, when Kommodore of JG 27 in Sicily in the spring of 1943, this photograph of the distinctively-marked 'White Triple Chevron 4' taken from the port side, shows a background terrain - billiard table flat and dotted with camel-thorn scrub - much more reminiscent of North Africa. It is now believed this machine is one belonging to Geschwaderstab of JG 77 which was abandoned in Tripolitania in January 1943 - but proof positive has yet to be established."

I can not find that any of the two photos I have referred to can verify the II/JG 27 emblem on the cowling.

In Osprey Aircraft of the Aces 2, page 41, a colour profile is again showing the II Gruppe emblem on this a c, captioned as being Rödels's G-4Trop.

Re: Hauptmann Gustav Rodel's G-4 help please
 

I knew I'd come to the right place, thanks guys for the info.
Any pics or text can be sent to me at jesters-ink@ntlworld.com.
Many thanks again.

Re: Hauptmann Gustav Rodel's G-4 help please
 

Thank for the pics guys, this is how she looks now given what I've seen so far. . .

Also looks like the unit badge should be removed . . .
http://premium1.uploadit.org/JeSTeRs//Rodels-G-2-4.jpg

Re: NOT Rodel's G-4 machine (Sorry)
 

The Bf 109G-2 (not G-4) illustrated is not Rodel's aircraft. It belonged to the Stab of the JG 77. The Kommodore at this time was Joachim Muencheberg. The photos of this machine were not taken on Sicily, but on a satellite field near Arco Philaenorum, Libya. There was no II/JG 27 badge on the cowl.

This is an excellent example of a mis-identification being repeated enough times to gain it legitimacy. There are photos of other Stab JG 77 Bf 109G-2s with very similar markings (white chevron, small numbers): <1, <3, <6 come to mind.

I was able to determine WNr. and loss date (some time in October I believe, I cannot recall precisely), but I don't happen to have that handy here at work; IF I remember, I'll post it when I get back on Wednesday.

Sorry to put the cat amongst the pigeons, but there are a number of examples of repeated mis-identifications that continue to haunt us: Schroer's Bf 109E-7/Trop "schwarze 8" that's not his; Rudel's Ju 87B-2 "T6+AD" that not his, etc.

HTH, GRM

Re: Hauptmann Gustav Rodel's G-4 help please
 

The Rebuilt Bf 109 G-2 (Ex Spanish HA-1112) given this camouflage and labelled as Rödel's kite, in the Luftwaffe Museum, Gatow, Berlin, is adorned with the W.Nr. 10575. I do not know the source the Museum is relying on.

The W.Nr. 10575 put on this ac is a Messerschmitt serial of an Erla built series of 384 G-2/Trop, between 07.42 and 12.42. (Source: Messerschmitt Bf 109 F,G & K Series, J.Prien & P.Rodeike, Schiffer, page 63)

The museum aircraft has been given a yellow 4 instead of white 4. It is also showing the II/JG 27 emblem on the cowling. The b/w pictures indicate a white 4 though, and I have so far not seen a picture with the II/JG 27 emblem on the cowling - Even if it might exist???? As it is doubtful that this is a JG 27 ac at all (See posting above), it might well be that it never caaried that emblem for obvious reasons!

Google on Bf 109 and Rödel and you will find pictures of the museum aircraft painted as "tripple chevron 4".

Re: NOT Rodel's G-4 machine (Sorry)
 

George! Glad you deigned to join us! ;) Love to have the date and Wnr.

Re: Hauptmann Gustav Rodel's G-4 help please
 

This is exactly the reason why we came here in the first place.
In short, we feed on what is published (right or wrong) and we end up believing in it, as we know no different. A lot of people won’t understand that it the research that takes the time, not the drawing. Our templates take about 2 months to get the basics roughed in then about a further 2 months to tune up.
Double that in research for each aircrafts markings and you get a real idea why things take so long.

So I thank you guys whole heartedly, not for throwing a spanner in the works, but shining a light on the truth. We want our profiles to be as accurate and well detailed as they can be. So no more misconceptions, no more inaccurate aircraft designations, so I beg to ask, whose aircraft was it? I also would be more than grateful to know the unit, date and location.

Many thanks again for preventing another misrepresentation.

Re: NOT Rodel's G-4 machine (Sorry)
 

Hey,

I'd love to hear where you got this information. I've seen this aircraft attributed to Rodel in many places, so I'm keen to hear where you found out it's not his. :)

Thanks,

Joe

Re: Hauptmann Gustav Rodel's G-4 help please
 

Definitely JG 77. See Prien's JG 77 history. Another 'well-known' machine 'White A' that is purportedly that of Schroer also fits this scenario. It's actually a JG 77 machine. I think there was also a G-6 so marked.

Re: Hauptmann Gustav Rodel's G-4 help please
 

To all,

A very interesting exchange; thanks to all. If I might take the opportunity of having the attention of so many knowledgeable members, can anyone refer me to photos of any of the later model 109 G's flown by Roedel? I find none in Prien's volume I on JG 27 in the short section that includes the Stabstaffel and Roedel's tenure as Commander of the Geschwader. Also, nothing in the Osprey Series books that cover JG 27, 109 G/K Aces of the Western Front, 109 Aces of the Med, or the newer volume on 109 Defenders of the Reich. Thanks in advance for any information.

Re: Hauptmann Gustav Rodel's G-4 help please
 

To my knowledge there have been no published photos of any of Roedel's later machines. And the Osprey titles are probably the last place you'd ever find a photo of a Roedel machine.

Its too bad we don't have more markings discussions on this site.

Re: Hauptmann Gustav Rodel's G-4 help please
 

It fascinates me how sketchy the information is on German aircraft.
There are a huge amount of publications available on the subject, but sadly many bristle with incorrect assumptions and unreliable information. The ones I used to think were reliable are not and have caught me out a few times. So to the guys in the “know”, what would you recommend as being a good reliable source for this kind of research?

Re: Hauptmann Gustav Rodel's G-4 help please
 

thank you all for sharing these valuable informations.
But about T6+AD Ju 87 : who was the true pilot ?
Best regards

Von Alles

Re: Hauptmann Gustav Rodel's G-4 help please
 

BRÜCKER, Hptm. Heinrich flew an R-2 so marked on several ocassions.

Re: Hauptmann Gustav Rodel's G-4 help please
 

Stuka drivers are George's thing - hopefully he'll come back and answer.

Jesters - you think things are sketchy now? How about 15-20 years ago?

What kind of information are you referring to? I'm presuming markings and camouflage. The biggest problem with keeping up with the latest and greatset in this area is the cost. These leading edge books are expensive, but its like anything else, you get what you pay for. Titles are too numerous to mention, but anything from Prien, Rodeike, Stemmer, Mombeek, Caldwell, Crandall, Urbanke to name but a few, should be a good start.

Re: Hauptmann Gustav Rodel's G-4 help please
 

Hi Jim, I try and stick to four projects at a time. Sometimes it gets out of hand and there ends up being more. Right now I am very keen to find out the "who, where, when and W.Nr for the profile on previous of this post triple chevron white 4. It’s the aircraft that inspires me, not the pilot. I'm not bothered that Rodel didn't fly it, but more interested in who did.

You have got to admit that text on a profile print looks a bit pathetic when it says:-
"Bf109G-2 or 4, somewhere in the desert between 1942 and 43 flown by an unknown pilot".

Not Rodel and Not Rudel
 

Couldn't help myself with the title of the post. ;-)

To return to the WNr. request, and to address "Who's T6+AD?"

The pranged triple-white-chevron machine is most-likely (see? not much in the Luftwaffe is cast-iron certain!) Bf 109G-2/Trop WNr.10645, written off in a "Bruchlandung; Bodenverhaeltnisse" (crash-landing, hit an obstruction) 1.December 1942 at Arco Philaenorum. Just as a side note, Muencheberg's 118. was claimed on 27.Nov. 1942

Someone asked about sources. The usual combinations: Quartermaster General's loss reports, A.D.I.(k) report [descriptive Brit. reports on captured airframes], Prien's listing of abandoned/lost Bf 109 airframes in the Mediterranean area, photographs. When one looks through our db for an obscure location, it's always more than likely that other aircraft were reported at the same place (that's where the Arco Philanorum ID came from, but I didn't happen to write down on today's scrap paper note which satellite field location was listed originally -- sorry, didn't think of it)

=+=+=+=

On to "not Rudel" in the Ju 87B/R "T6+AD" John Beaman's referral to "Hein" Bruecker is correct, if you're looking at a machine during the Balkans campaign or earlier. During the onset of the Russian campaign, when Rudel began flying Stuka combat missions (not earlier -- he wasn't yet considered 'reliable' by his Kommodore at the time, "Onkel Oskar" Dinort), his Gruppenkommandeur was Ernst-Siegfried Steen. It's Steen's aircraft that is most-commonly mis-identified as Rudel's. Rudel was at this time the III. Gruppen Technical Officer. Steen was KIA 23.September 1941. After taxiing his 'own' T6+AD into a pothole, he appropriated Rudel's T6+CD, together with Rudel's radio operator Alfred Scharnowski, for what turned out to be his fatal flight, returning to Kronstadt to attack Soviet capital ships.

Rudel did not succeed Steen as Gruppenkommandeur. Gustav Pressler was posted in from St.G.77 and became Kommandeur of III/St.G. 2 (Indeed, ANOTHER T6+AD, a winter-camouflaged Ju 87D-1, is another mis-identified machine; Pressler not Rudel). Rudel became Staffelkpaitaen of the 1./St.G. 2. He did not become III/St.G. 2 Kommandeur until 1943. The photo of him waiting for takeoff in his Ju 87D-5 has been widely reprinted, so you may be familiar with that one. His usual backseater was Erwin Hentschel.

Sorry this is so long; hope it clarified rather than further clouded the waters, GRM

Re: Hauptmann Gustav Rodel's G-4 help please
 

Re: Hauptmann Gustav Rodel's G-4 help please
 

Thank you George and John for help about T6+AD !!!

von Alles

Reality check
 

Well, when the marking and WNr. and location appear on a document, you can be relatively certain. I use the wiggle-room of 'relatively' because a typo can occur to anyone, and even the "official" documents and loss lists contain them. Transposed numbers are not uncommon. This is ANOTHER thing that makes our db so useful, its sorting ability -- but it also reveals sometimes-frustrating anomalies as well...

Now as to determining the pilot's name: who an aircraft is prepared for and who flies it are not necessarily the same pilot. When examining logbooks, one can observe that a pilot may test-fly or transfer an aircraft for a single flight; in other instances he may use the same airframe for months at a time. Lacking Muencheberg's logbook, there can be no confirmation that he was flying this machine on that date. Here's a perfect Desert example: Schroer was the Staffelkapitaen of the 8./JG 27. He was photographed with "schwarze 1" in the late summer of 1942 (I'm not refering here to his later "rote 1" that he was flying on Rhodes). But on the day he claims six P-40s, he's flying "schwarze 6" -- see what I mean?

This does not, probably, provide you with the absolute certainty you hoped for, but as you venture further down the road of history, certainties seem to become less frequent. I tend to look at much of history as "What I THOUGHT I knew." Now the good news is, maybe someday another piece of the puzzle presents itself. The bad news is very much of Luftwaffe documentation is gone -- but that makes the hunt all the more intriguing! As Jim reminded us, remember 20 years ago. We're much richer today -- we have a board like this one!

HTH, GRM

Re: Hauptmann Gustav Rodel's G-4 help please
 

Dear All

Late as always, when looking in Jagdwaffe Vol 4 Sec 4 (publ in 2004) the aircraft has been "downgraded" a bit to "thought to have been abandoned at Catania in July 1943" and "possibly flown by Gustav Rödel". Two photos shown, right side only...very typical of course, since the three view drawing here shows the left side. Jagdwaffe shows the right side in their colour profile and this WITHOUT any JG 27 marking.

With ref to GRM and his thoughts about WNr 10645, Prien in his JG 77 Vol 3 quotes a British report that it was found on Melacha airfield on 22.1.1943 and only fuselage remains was found. Importantly this report seems NOT to mentioned the digit 4, but ONLY the three chevrons. This find should also be put in context with the initial report by Luftwaffe that it was only slightly damaged (25%) at an unknown base when it crashlanded 1.12.1942. Also the two published photos shows, to me, an aeroplane that has made a ground loop (look at the landing gear...) which also, to me, is NOT indicative of a crashlanding, but maybe the German language in reports was rather unprecise. Neither does the photos look like the aeroplane has hit any obstacle, but again they are onesided and it would be very interesting to have a look at the other side. Has anyone any reference where the left side is shown?

So GRM I still have doubts about the ID of the WNr being correct, but I am in favour of those who say it is from JG 77 and not JG 27. :)

Unfortunately Jagdwaffe does NOT say from where THEIR pictures originate. The two lightly clad individuals could be from either side, but IF the photos were taken by the British then the aeroplane is deff not captured under "fuselage parts". If it is German photos, well....

Cheers
Stig

Re: Hauptmann Gustav Rodel's G-4 help please
 

Bruchlandung; Bodenverhaeltnisse should not be crashlanding hit obstruction, but crashlanding due to severe/unfavorable ground conditions (i.e potholes, bomb fragments, shellholes or some such occurence).

Re: Hauptmann Gustav Rodel's G-4 help please
 

Stig, in post No.4 above I put in a ref on the port side:
"Aviation Elite Units 12, Jagdgeschwader 27 'Afrika', John Weal, Page 89:...."

Also regarding capture: One photo clearly shows a P-40 in the background marked CU o ?

Re: Hauptmann Gustav Rodel's G-4 help please
 

OK Guys

Jim P, thanks for the better translation of the crashlanding. The photos in my source looks much more like your translation.

F19,do you have the source I gave? I don't have the Osprey volume you quote. If you have you should quite easily be able to compare the two sources and say if they are the same aeroplane or not. If you DON'T, what does the aeroplane look like in Osprey? Are the triple chevrons visible? Is the small digit 4 visible? Is any unit markings visible?

According to the British source who found the abandoned WNr 10645 only fuselage parts was documented as remaining. No unit could be stated by them either.

As said earlier I have still doubts that the WNr listed as 10645 is the same one as we are loking at in our various photos, but... :)

Cheers
Stig

Re: Hauptmann Gustav Rodel's G-4 help please
 

Hi Stig,
Yes, I have the Jagdwaffe 4/4 - But not accessible from where I am now!

The picture of the port side published on p.89 in Osprey Av. Elite Units No. 12 is according to my opinion the very same aircraft: "Tripple Chevron White 4". The Chevron and "4" being identical to the starboard pictures I earlier referred to.
All of the port fuselage is visible, but the tail is unfortunately not shown. Upper sides of both wings also appear.
Position of ac on the ground, the ground surface, prop position and status, flaps position etc etc all match with the other pics I quoted as reference.
The picture is of poor quality but even under a magnifying glass I can not find any emblem on the cowling.

The status of the aircraft as seen in the three pictures I have available is more complete than mere "fuselage parts" as all major components are in place. Perhaps the British report referes to another ac?
Would be interesting to know where The Luftwaffe Museum in Gatow got the inspiration from to adorn the replica of theirs with W.Nr. 10575 ??
I better write them and ask what mtrl they have.

I suspect the photos have been taken by Allied soldiers, as on one picture a parked P-40 marked with "CY" code is clearly visible. If someone knows the P-40 unit it might help narrowing down the location alternatives?

Stig, if you send me your email address I will reply.

Re: Hauptmann Gustav Rodel's G-4 help please
 

Re: Hauptmann Gustav Rodel's G-4 help please
 

Thanks for taking the time to continue this project guys, I can't move on it until I know more about it. What can be done on the drawing is done, so it rests on the data now.

Re: Hauptmann Gustav Rodel's G-4 help please
 

Hi Guys

Jester
I think what you SHOULD do is to remove the Gruppe markings. None is visible on either side, as confirmed by F19. Nobody, so far, on TOCH is in favour that the aircraft is from JG 27, so I think you should take at least half a step back on that issue... :)

F19. Thanks for checking. What I THINK the P-40/Kittyhawk shows is the code CV, which was 3 Sq RAAF, which operated in the desert at the time.
Of course I have no unit movement for this Sq and cannot straight away state where they were based at all times in North Africa and if they continued to operate in Italy or not. Somehow it feels likely they did since I believe the Desert Air Force continued its job all the way

Anyone else who can pin-point this Oz unit's bases in WW 2?

You can always send an e-mail to me on hagel.jarlevik@bredband.net
(anyone else too if they feel like it.. :) )

Cheers
Stig

Re: Hauptmann Gustav Rodel's G-4 help please
 

It's ok Stig the PSD on my HD is already fixed with no unit badge and one or two others too.
I'll update the image here as soon as more details are known about the pilot, base, works number and date.

Other examples of artwork can be found here

Re: Hauptmann Gustav Rodel's G-4 help please
 

Change of direction regarding the P-40 in the background.......it could be "CV" and not "CY" on the pic why it would match with No 3 RAAF Squadron, which fought both in Libya, Sicily and Italy as far as I can find out via the web.

Re: Hauptmann Gustav Rodel's G-4 help please
 

Hi,

I haven’t given up on this riddle yet -The true identity of this Bf 109.

Going through old books I found this image published in “German Aircraft Markings 1939-1945” by K.A. Merrick, Ian Allan, 1977.
The three aircraft visible at the same photo might assist in where and when the photo was taken.
(In the photo caption it is mentioned that this photo was taken at Catania.)

Aircraft 1. Bf 109 <<<4+
Aircraft 2. Ju 88A-4(?) L1+EH from 1./LG1. “White E”, with partly black camouflage.
Aircraft 3. P-40 marked “CV” which indicates No 3 RAAF Squadron
"CV" would match with No 3 RAAF Squadron, which fought both in Libya, Sicily and Italy as far as I can find out.

(Not to be misled by the Ju 88 L1+EH, I noted there is a photo of another Ju 88 with this very same identity published on P. 326 in “Luftwaffe Camouflage and Markings Vol Two, K.A. Merrick, 2005, Classic Colours.
According to it’s caption this other Ju 88 A “crashed in the Libyan desert in December 1941” and shows a camouflage void of black camouflage paint. )

Seems as if Mr. Merrick is sitting on several photos of this Bf 109 since he has published different photos in his books in 1977 as well as in 2005.

Re: Hauptmann Gustav Rodel's G-4 help please
 

Hi Guys.
I think this is the left sided one you are talking about.
The chap I got it from was 12 sqdn SAAF and on the back it says a date that was late 1942.
In the back is a Ju 88.
This chap did not go across to Sicily so it places it in the WD.
Hope it helps
PS.I have 2 ammo rounds from this plane and the oil filler cap from the Ju 88.

Re: Hauptmann Gustav Rodel's G-4 help please
 

Hi Steefan,
Thank you! Yes this is the same aircraft. Interesting info about location.

Is there an exact date on the back side?

Looks as if the WNr can be seen on the fin. Perhaps readable on the original?


Cheers
Goran

Re: Hauptmann Gustav Rodel's G-4 help please
 

Hi.
I am incliding a photo of the fin that I scanned at 1600 dpi to blow up and see.
As you see there is no werkno.
On the caption on the Bullets and cap mount it says ? Mersah Metruh area. No date anywhere.
Sorry.
If you can tell me near which LG was Metruh I may get it on my map and relate it to the 12 sqdn bases.

Re: Hauptmann Gustav Rodel's G-4 help please
 

Hi Stefaan,

I think there is a number written in black.

Regards

Robert

Re: Hauptmann Gustav Rodel's G-4 help please
 

Nope.
It is just a line.Looks like it may have been cut out.
That is when I blow my shot up 200% at 1600dpi.
Stefaan

Re: Hauptmann Gustav Rodel's G-4 help please
 

Thank you for posting the photo and enlargement Stefaan!:)

A pity we could not find the WNr as that would have been terrific info!

Can you see from the photo to which frame segment the radio antenna is joining the fuselage? (G-2 alt. G-4 version)

Is it possible to post a larger picture? Perhaps via a URL to a photo host site like "Photo Bucket" or similar. (The thumb nail attachments does not allow larger quality photo postings due to Kb restrictions)

Your info on "near Mersah Metruh" and end of 1942 supports the earlier postings here claiming it was actually taken in N. Africa and not Sicily.

Regarding 12 Sq; It was a bomber (Martin Maryland Squadron), Right???

I did some checking earlier on bases which could be possible due to the aircraft visible as we have one Bf 109 G (JG 77??), a P-40 of 3 Sq RAAF and a LG 1 JU 88. One problem is that in the tumult during the retreat/advance, aircraft from units might well have ended up in other fields than their designated ones, as well as passing through or short time stays at dispersed fields. I did not come to a definite conclusion why I have not posted anything yet from that end. Will continue to search......

I posted the photo with the Ju 88 from LG 1, L1+EH, hoping someone had data on where it was written off, helping identifying the airfield - Now possibly in the Mersah Metruh area.
No W.Nr on that one either unfortunately.
Anyone who knows more about this Ju 88?

Cheers,
Goran