IL-2 vs JG 54.
 

Hi all!
I think it would be interesting for JG 54 researchers.

I found very interesting combat report of IL-2 pilot, who claim Fw190 over Viipuri area on 21 06 1944.

I will translate it tomorrow. Also, some scemes of combat will be attached.

AFAIK, the only Fw190 in that region were II./JG 54.

According JG 54 losslist, it could be:

Hptm. Aloe Herbert, 31 abschusse experten, StaKa 4./JG 54, Fw190A-5 (150)1214 "we2 +" 100% Gebiet Viipurin

or

Uffz. Erich Knöbel from 5./JG 54, Fw190A-6 530341 "sw 20 +" 100% Nordw. Koivisto, mentioned as killed in LK with IL-2"

So, how far Koivisto from Viipurin?

Info from combat report says that Fw190 crashed the earth ~ 5km from frontline after took hits in engine and cockpit from fire of backgunner of leading IL-2.

S!

P.S. Tomorrow I'll translatethat report and post here.

Re: IL-2 vs JG 54.
 

------------------

Air combat of 4 x IL-2 against 4 x Fw190.
Hero of the Soviet Union, guardian Kapitan Chekin Boris Sergeevich.

….
Takticks of enemy fighters was following: groups of them flew inder the edge of clouds, and, hiding at low altitude, suddenly attacked our aircrafts over targets beside frontline.

21 july our ground troops enter Viipuri (Vyborg). Finns were trying to save vechikles and troops, and were retreating by wide roads to the north direction from Viipuri.

Group of 4 x IL-2 under command of Squadron Commander, Starshyi Lejtenant (1st ltn.) Polyakov, gaine and order: attack retreating troops on the roads North to Viipuri. Without any escort. After briefing, we checkedhow to make it more succefull, and desided: bgecause of many enemyfighters in area of target, we will fly low altitude, in formation of “right peleng”, close to “front”.

We took off and formated “right peleng”. I was 4th aircraft in formation. We passed frontline on low alt. We saw no enemy fighters around us. Leader made 2 attacks on target, and when he was going to make 3rd - My reargunner sayd: “Over the hill appeared 4 Fw190, the are going to attack”. My leader make and order “Assebly!”. After right turn I saw 2 Fw190, 800-900 metsre behind me, going to attack us from 6 oclock. Another 2 Fw190 were waiting high behind attacking pair. My leader decreased his speed, and we formated close “front” formation with distance ~ 15-20 metres between aircrafts. Leading Fw190 pair were going to attack us from 6 oclock. It was good for us, because we were on very low altitude and it was impossible to attack us from below, and because of many hills and ravines we had advantage in maneuvering (Fw190 had much higher speed then us).

When Fw190, who attacked me, closed to 600metres, my reargunner and gunners from other IL-2’s open fire. Germans anyway approached, going to open fire from close distance. Fw190, who a attcked me tried to stey in “dead” sector:

http://militera.lib.ru/science/falcons/330.gif

He opened fire in the mometn when I went down, and burst camo over me, damaged only radio antenna. Then he exit attack to right side with climb. Then same pair attacked second time, I went down to give my gunner better position of shooting. As a result, leading Fw190 was shot down by my reargunner serjeant Dudatin (burst straight in “face”) when we crossed a lake.
His wingman, saw the result of attcak, runned away.

http://militera.lib.ru/science/falcons/331.gif

Then second pair, who were waining beside us, enter to attack us.

Germans were going to make very rare method of attack: going in “dead sector” on parralel heading, they attacked us from turn dive.

Then we make left turn, to give our gunners ability to shoot. They to repulsed more 2 attacks.

http://militera.lib.ru/science/falcons/332.gif

After several attacks without success, they made some attacks shooting from rear side of our formation, aiming in the center of formation, trying to split us.

http://militera.lib.ru/science/falcons/333.gif

In the momet when burst of fire must hit me, I pulled up, and was hited only by 2 x 20mm shells, damaging my gear.

It was already 10 minutes of comabat, and frontline was ~ 2-3 km away. Ity seems that Fw190 runnedout of ammo, and we all Il-2 returned to our base without losses. I made mergency landing on one gear.

Germans didn’t gain success because reargunners prevent attack from close distance, and it was hard to hit maneuvering airplane from far distance.

This fight impressed me very much, because in that time I was very Young and unexpiriensed pilot, and didn’t believe in the maneuveres. After fight I was sure in the abilityes of defence of formation and low speed. This fight confirmed to me that in defence combat of Il-2 vs enemy fighters, when it is impossible to make “circle” or “snake” formation, the most effective takticks is to make “peleng” formation on low alt and speed.

Making some good maneuveres, we won this fight, and shot down 1 Fw190.

------------------------

Tomorrow I'll post another report, showing figh on 24 10 1944, when 2 Fw190 were shot down by IL-2 of 35 ShAP KBF during mission at 12:37 - 15:46, over Baltic Sea. It seems for me that was Fw190 from II./JG 54, there are some maches in JG 54 losslist.

S!

Re: IL-2 vs JG 54.
 

Thanks Eugen
very interesting!
Koivisto town, Primorsk nowadays, is some 35 km south of Viipuri/Vyborg and Koivisto, the island, is the big island just south of Primorsk.

HTH
Juha

Re: IL-2 vs JG 54.
 

So, it seems that Aloe was shot by narrators gunner over Viipuri, and Knöbel - over Koivisto ~35km away from Aloe fell place with fight vs some another Il-2's. Right?

BTW: Chekin Boris Sergeevich (narrator) is still alive nowdays, lives in St.Petersburg (ex-Leningrad). I'll ask my friends to make an interview with him or something like that.

Re: IL-2 vs JG 54.
 

Very interesting.

Looking forward for the next report.

Thanks a lot.

Re: IL-2 vs JG 54.
 

Also so more experten were shot down by IL-2:

Otto Kittel : Tryingto find directlyname of a pilot from 806 ShAP who shot him down;

Hans Goetz: have no any idea... must look;

Karl Schnoerrer : the only info - those IL-2 were from 6 OShAP.

Re: IL-2 vs JG 54.
 

Amazing!!! Thank you very much for this :)

Re: IL-2 vs JG 54.
 

Hello!


Compare also to the story of the covering Soviet fighters. It has been discussed earlier at this very forum:

http://forum.12oclockhigh.net/showthread.php?t=4832

So Il-2s were from 35 ShAP (CORRECTION: Chekin was from 566 ShAP which was ARMY not KBF unit!) and fighters from 12 IAP (Tikhomirov one of the pilots). Both units were in Baltic Fleet Air Force ( VVS KBF ).


Kari

PS IIRC FinnAF lost around ten Bf 109s in air-air battles during Vyborg Operation ( = Summer offensive 1944). Of these IIRC again at least two-three ( > 20% ) were shot down by Il-2s. I wouldn't be surprised if the ratio was similar with Luftwaffe in 1944-45.

Re: IL-2 vs JG 54.
 

The report of Tikhomirov is about figh on 24 10 1944, when 2 Fw190 were shot down by IL-2 of 35 ShAP KBF during mission at 12:37 - 15:46, over Baltic Sea. It seems for me that was Fw190 from II./JG 54, there are some maches in JG 54 losslist.
Seems to be:
Grießl Julius Ofhr. Fw190A-6 550880 ? sw 14 + 100% 20km NO von Vainode
Carstens Werner Fhr. Fw190A-6 530348 ? ge 8 + 100% 5km nördl. Vainode

And 21 06 44 is not THAT Tikhomirov story :)

http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?op...=412&Itemid=20

He is directly talking about october 1944, not june.

Later I'll translate it from Russian.

He is talking about another episode, when he shot down Knobel. So, it means that Aloe was shot down by Il-2 from 566 ShAP, piloted by B.Chekin.

S!

Re: IL-2 vs JG 54.
 

Chekin or Chekalin?

Re: IL-2 vs JG 54.
 

Hello Eugen
from the tread Kari gave:

“according to the book by Hannu Valtonen ("Lento-osasto Kuhlmey", based on Bundesarchiv documents) Hptm Herbert Aloe (FW 190A-6, "white 2", WNr 501214) disappeared at 13.40 8 km NNE Viipuri…

…Aloé was last heard when he reported that he was in air combat with enemy fighters…

…Hptm. Aloé also had lost contact to his wingman Fw. Huss in an earlier skirmish before he began his last combat with Soviet fighters...”


So place is OK, I cannot say nothing on the time but problem is that in his last message Aloé reported that he was in combat with fighters. He had also lost contact with his wingman.

Of course it is possible that after the skirmish with fighters Aloé met some Fw 190s and then attacked Il-2s with them but IMHO before drawing conclusion it would be good to check were there any fighter claims over the area.

Juha

Re: IL-2 vs JG 54.
 

Hero of the Soviet Union, guardian Kapitan Chekin Boris Sergeevich.
http://ilpilot.narod.ru/man/hsu/h/chekin.html

His combat report:
http://www.avia.ru/especial/sokols/attack/sto_328.shtml

Actually, interview of Tikhomirov includes two episodes where Il-2 are mentioned:

21 06 1944, when he shot down Knoebel escorting IL-2's from 35 ShAP.

24 10 1944, when witness of fight from his 12 IAP saw bloody picture how do 2 Fw190 were eliminated bu 23mm VYa guns of IL-2's from 35 ShAP. I'll translate it a bit later. Very impressive story.

Also, we have claim of Chekin over Fw190 over Viipuri on 21 06 1944. JG 54 loss list show only 2 Fw190 lost. It means, that Aloe COULD be victim of Chekin's gunner.

Any sourses about Aloe's last fight?

Re: IL-2 vs JG 54.
 

Oh, oki I saw it. Now... Hmmm...

Chekin say that he had no escort. Hmmm.... I am confuzed - aactually reports of IL-2 about combats vs german fighters are very clear and overclaim is misnimal, instead of fighters.

All 4 crews of Il-2 saw crashed Fw190, and claim was confirmed and added to his score.

But now I dont know... There were full schwarm attacking Chekin's flight. So, nothing seem like "lost kontakt with wingman" or so...

Where we can check original Aloe's radiomessage?

Did he say: "Fighers" or just "Bandits"?

Re: IL-2 vs JG 54.
 

Hello!

Eugen's first posts left Chekin's unit unknown (given only after my first reply) and the only ShAP unit given was 35 ShAP at the end. Therefore I jumped into wrong conclusion of Chekin's unit.

If Chekin was from 566 ShAP then they most certainly were not escorted by 12 IAP and perhaps by no-one then as the pilot says. 566 ShAP was Army unit ( 13th Air Army, 277 ShAD) and 12 IAP from Baltic Fleet.

But it looks like both units (12 IAP & 566 ShAP) were at the same place at the same time. Koivisto is a cape so very much KBF aviation "playground".

I would also like to point out that I called for comparison of the events described and I did not state anything.

Kari


PS Check this interactive map of sunken ships - it includes also planes and couple of tanks!:
http://www.baltic-sunken-ships.ru/ma...?mid=3&Ing=RUS

The map is clickable and zoomable.
It looks like there is a Fw 190 found near Koivisto. If not familiar, map of the Viipurinlahti Bay area (with some names) can be found for example here:
http://users.tkk.fi/~jaromaa/Navygallery/Misc/Maps/Viipurinlahti.gif
(Finnish Navy mainpage at: http://users.tkk.fi/~jaromaa/Navygallery/index.htm )

Re: IL-2 vs JG 54.
 

Very interesting report! Thanks!

Concerning this:
Vainode is inside Kurland (Latvia), ca. 40km away from the Baltic Sea. So, these two losses do definitely not fit to the claims by 35ShAP.

Re: IL-2 vs JG 54.
 

Eugen: “Where we can check original Aloe's radiomessage? Did he say: "Fighers" or just "Bandits"?”

A very good question. Unfortunately, I cannot answer it. I don’t have original documents, only Valtonen’s narrative of them. Valtonen’s source is WASt. II./JG 54/1/Aloé/21.6.1944.

And this is what is in Valtonen’s book.
“At 13.40 St.Kap. 4. Staffel, Hptm. Herbert Aloé, FW 190 A-6, “weiss 2”, WNr. 501214… 21.6.1944 at 13.00 took off 6 FW 190s under Hptm. Aloé’s leadership for Freie Jagd over Viipuri. There they got into aerial battle with Il-2s, during which Rotte Aloé – Fw. Huss got separated. A little later Hptm. Aloé reported that he was in aerial combat with enemy fighters. Hptm. Aloé didn’t return from the sortie…He was seen last time 8km NNE Viipuri at 13.40 at 100m.”

HTH
Juha

Re: IL-2 vs JG 54.
 

Hi guys!
Firstly: amazing reading! Quite fantastic and with the diagrams made by the Russian IL-2 pilot! Wonderful thread...congratulatios to both of you!
Secondly: Was the Fw 190 found on the lake recovered? It could answer a lot of questions to us if any clue of werknummer or identity could be salvaged...Any news on this Fw 190 from the lake?
I will keep reading your threads...simply fantastic!
Thanks again - in the name of all fond of military history!
Adriano

Re: IL-2 vs JG 54.
 

Hi guys!

THX for all Your replyes!

I have no much free time to translate ALL docs and other things (because I've just returned from hospital, hardly avoiding leg amputation - now its ok, I healed it), but I'll do my best.

2 yogybär: thx for enclose the location. Tikhomirov says:

-----------
" In october 44 we were transferred to Pyarnu for taking art in liberation of isles Esel and Dago. Once a time - I was not in that mission but witness sayd to me - pair of Fw190 attacked a formation of IL-2's on alt 500m.
..........
This time "Fokke's" exit from attack in front of Il-2's, and it was need only to press the buttons.

Leading Fw190 was hit by several 23mm shells in fuzelage and wings and exploded so hard that left visible only huge cloud of smoke and falling part of tail with tailwheel.

His wingmen was hit by only one 23mm shell straight in cockpit, and began fast climbing. Pilot, who told me this story - followed him in climb and going to attack - but when he enclose to Fw190 - he saw terrible picture: board of fuzelage was gone, cockpitglass was throun away, and inside the cock was bloody smash mixed pieses of body and parts of interior...He was so amaized that could not shoot, and uncontrolled Fw190 made 2-3 loops and spinned into sea..."
--------------
The comments says: This combat took place 24 10 44, when during combat mission 12:37 - 15:46, IL-2 pilots claimed 2 x Fw190 shot down: Ltn.Gavrilov (personal) and serjants Bochkaryov and Solov'yov (shared).

About Aloe - it need to ask Owl99 to know may be any VVS fighters claims in that area...

Chekin reports say: 4 Fw190... Hmm, I dont know what it means really. Another group of 4 x Fw190? Same group but without Aloe Rotte?

BTW: about "fw190 in the lake" - my friend have some relations with russian "black diggers". I dont like them because of various things, but... Once he told me that they found Fw190 in river WSW from my sity (prev.name - Stalingrad). It is Fw190 for sure - they took part of control stick, and piece of V-Stab. Anyway - they bury pilot, and for THIS I may say - I am not angry on them. Because almost all other "BD" dont care about it. It seems for me that that Fw190 could be from Schl.G 1 or something..

Re: IL-2 vs JG 54.
 

About fight on 24 10 44:

Here is a map of Moonsund Desant Operation (in russian):

27 09 44 - 24 11 44.

Isles: Dago - Hiyumaa, Esel - Saaremaa.

Is Vainode somwhere in that area?

http://velikvoy.narod.ru/karta/front...d_desant-1.gif

May be sombody have better map, in english?

Re: IL-2 vs JG 54.
 

No. Latvia has no islands, they all belong to Estonia.

There is something little about Vainode at Latvian aviation homepage (inlcuding simple map of the location):

http://latvianaviation.com/Aero_Vainode.html

Latvian aviation mainpage:
http://latvianaviation.com/


Cheers,
Kari

Re: IL-2 vs JG 54.
 

Tikhomirov had shot down Knoebel. Read more in my chapters of Darabkin's second volume of "Istrebiteli-2".

Re: IL-2 vs JG 54.
 

Yes, Andrey, we know it.

We are talking about Aloe, who was shot down by fighters or just "bandits" or MAY BE Il-2 of Chekin from 566 ShAP, N Viipuri, the same day 21 06 44.

Also, trying to confirm or deni 2 claims of pilots of 35 ShAP VV KBF on 24 10 44 over Saaremaa area.

Re: IL-2 vs JG 54.
 

Andrey,
I can't find the book you reference on the Eastview website, which I use for buying Russian books (because the site is in English). When did it appear (and the first volume)? Any suggestions on how to purchase a copy?

Frank.

Re: IL-2 vs JG 54.
 

They were released indeed. The second volume - in autumn of 2006, the first one - in 2005.

I don't know. Here are the links on ozon.ru:

First volume (Fighter Pillots interviews, vol.1):
http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/2616014/

Second Volume (Fighter Pilots interviews, vol.2):
http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/2853274/

If you haven't seen the volume with Il-2 shturmovik pilots interviews:
http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/2368336/

I've found one link on amazon.com (Il-2 volume):
http://www.amazon.com/Ia-dralsia-IL-...747010&sr=8-29

Probably, you can contact Artyom Drabkin himself or somebody on forum for further information. I think there's his email on his own site: http://www.iremember.ru/index.php?lang=en


Over here the books costs up to 4 USD.

Re: IL-2 vs JG 54.
 

Regarding Aloe, it's VERY hard to identify the victor, because there were a LOT of claims.

The fact, that the claim of Tikhomirov was identified (with 99% accuracy, imho) - it's a big luck. Navy pilots claimed 7 FW 190s that morning.


Re Aloe - definitely he wasn't shot down by any Navy pilot (by time).

And the army fighter claims I know (via Mikhail Bykov), also doesn't match by type and place.

Re: IL-2 vs JG 54.
 

Regarding 24.10.44:

If there would be some match in German records, I would highlighted it in my comments to the chapter.

I almost didn't wrote directly that these claims "can't be verified by German side". Because:

a. I made this interview personally and the text is adopted interview as it is. This genre (it's not a pure research) doesn't let you to write such things in comments (from the moral point of view). I've just 'missed' it, although, as you read, you see that I know the subject well.

In cases when I saw a match, I always wrote it. If not - not.

b. German loss records for 44 are not so accurate as we all would wish.


Personally I think that could be SG 4 pilots, who met with Il-2s - they acted against Oesel at that period. I even remember one suspected candidate, but hasn't it by hand. And again - at that day 8 FW-190s (and 1 Do-24) were claimed roughly at that area.

Re: IL-2 vs JG 54.
 

I understand.