Barbarossa - The Air Battle - Chapter 17 on atrocities
 

Just bought Christer Bergström's (latest?) publication.

Barbarossa - The Air Battle: July-December 1941
Published by Midland Counties*

It appears to be a worthy addition to Black Cross/Red Star vol.1

As I was just glancing, my attention was caught by an essay in chapter 17, called Atrocities and Ideology on the Eastern Front. Although an interesting piece of text, I am questioning the use of one source.

Perhaps it is only a matter of time before we accept the Internet as a primary source, but I am old fashioned when it comes to more critical subjects.

www.flieger-lynchmorde.de is used as the (single) source for "a recent study" which claims that it has found "314" cases of Allied airmen lynched after bailing out over Germany.

Some of the cases there read like:
12.12.1944 Ermordung eines amerikanischen Fliegers in einem nichtgenannten Ort

Very few of the cases are matched the names of their victims. All of the cases are "Ermordung" or murder. Being limited in information, it is impossible to deduct if there might have been cases of resisting capture etc.

Although it is very likely that many Allied Airmen were lynched or murdered, you need to present figures with hard facts, based on well documented cases.

Just my 2 c.

*which should put to rest some of the fears of them not being able to keeping up a high standard.

Re: Barbarossa - The Air Battle - Chapter 17 on atrocities
 

Ruy, I think the matter is not with the internet itself, as you can find a lot of crap on paper as well. The one must simply make an analysis of available sources, compare them if they do not repeat the same information and then use it.

Re: Barbarossa - The Air Battle - Chapter 17 on atrocities
 

But don't you agree that once you choose to quote numbers, you need to have either a (relatively) reliable source, or multiple (independent) sources.

I question the use of the Internet as a single source when it comes to more sensitive subject like this one.

IMHO.

Re: Barbarossa - The Air Battle - Chapter 17 on atrocities
 

The simple legal tenet applies to all research: "He who asserts must prove".

Re: Barbarossa - The Air Battle - Chapter 17 on atrocities
 

Holá gentlemen,
at first, I don't know the content of Christers new book: Barbarossa-the air battle, yet. But to use -flieger-lynchmorde.de- as a source is IMHO legal. The creators of this page have the guts to touch a "hot potatoe" in post war Germanys public opinion. An equal documentation on german tv lead to a common uproar of indignation in Germany. Consequently the custodians of local archives refused or blocked any informations of incidents that happened in their regions. But interviewing of survived persons who whitnessed those incidents is also a legal part of research.
I personally read Christers books with critical distance but I think they have a qualified space in Air War History Documentations and so has the -flieger-lynchmorde webpage.
Cheers
Horst Schmidt

Re: Barbarossa - The Air Battle - Chapter 17 on atrocities
 

This website is a useful research tool, listing all known cases with sources (so way above Web standard) but don't claim AFAIK to list them all, or to avoid duplicate (especially between the dated cases and those for which only the month is known). One thing it is lacking IMOO is the reference to the post-war process that often took place.

So a reference to it should be OK, as it is IMOO serious research, but the final number should be considered as an "order of idea". By the way, the figure may be high but it was less than 1% of the total number of POW. German airmen executed in France in 1940 were about the same ratio. And POW killing was far superior in ground battle...

By the way, the fliegermorde list is not complete. I recently found in French archives the case of a French Halifax airman that was very probably executed (beaten hard then brought from jail into a wood and "killed during an escape attempt") in fall 1944. It doesn't seem to be listed.

As for Allied airmen killed while resisting capture in Germany, I think the number was probably low.

Re: Barbarossa - The Air Battle - Chapter 17 on atrocities
 

As for Allied airmen killed while resisting capture in Germany, I think the number was probably low


It seems natural for a combattant to escape capture, I always wonder if the airmen don't act differently, because not same substract, I mean they combatting in the air on earth they are no more combattants...
Interesting is that in the movie .
" Is it necessary to save Ryan? yes for the nb of entries"
I numbered at least 67 german prisoners executed, the reason is that the G.Is don't understand the german...Seems not cause trouble to anyone

rémi

Re: Barbarossa - The Air Battle - Chapter 17 on atrocities
 

Of course the site is way to be complete. It also does not provide any legal background ie. orders concerning treatment of Allied airmen. Nonetheless, I do not think it is a bad site nor that it should not be referred to.
What is bothering is perhaps a risk of plagiarism but it is certainly surprising what the hell have war crimes in Germany to the airwar in the East and atrocities there committed by both sides?

Re: Barbarossa - The Air Battle - Chapter 17 on atrocities
 

Holá Franek, do you know the content of chapter 17 of Christers "Barbarossa - the Air Battle"? The content will probably give you the answer.
Cheers
Horst Schmidt

Re: Barbarossa - The Air Battle - Chapter 17 on atrocities
 

Horst
No, I do not, having bad experience with the author I have decided not to buy any of his books anymore - he is not credible researcher for me. Regarding the chapter, Ruy has noted the website is the only source for it. Conclusion is obvious.

Re: Barbarossa - The Air Battle - Chapter 17 on atrocities
 

The real "Fliegermord" occurred over Dresden in February, 1945.

Re: Barbarossa - The Air Battle - Chapter 17 on atrocities
 

The intention was no different than in 100 or more other such raids by all sides but the implementation of the plan was more successful.

If on the other hand you were to condemn all bombing of civilian populations then at least you would you have logic and consistency on your side.

Re: Barbarossa - The Air Battle - Chapter 17 on atrocities
 

you were to condemn all bombing of civilian populations...

You are pretty right, nd to go further it seems that during the 2.WW, the victory at any cost reach a climax, nd give the trend for the next 50 years, nd maybe the worst is to come not sure that we hv paid all the cost of the amorality/cynism/sense of reality delpoyed during the past years
Concerning the bombings, I never understood the one of Rotterdam, at that time in was not in the habits...

remi

Re: Barbarossa - The Air Battle - Chapter 17 on atrocities
 

I didn't post this to discuss atrocities in general, not to argue about the figure and certainly not to start a tit for tat debate on who was responsible for more atrocities.

As Franek pointed out, I question using a single source for such a sensitive topic, and more so since it happens to be an internet source.

This is something that caught my eye.

The book itself is promising and I'll read it fully once I have finished reading a couple of other books which have priority.

Re: Barbarossa - The Air Battle - Chapter 17 on atrocities
 

Having just finished Bergström's interesting book, my initial impression is that it is a good overview of the first six months of the eastern campaign's battles in the air. However, I question his judgment that it was the Soviet AF that stopped or slowed down the armored advances toward Leningrad or Moscow. He probably does not have access to the divisional histories of the 1st PD, the 2nd SS ID (mot), 3rd SS ID (mot), 7th PD, 29th ID (mot), etc. In the first instance, he would have known that the Ist PD had broken through the defensive rings around Leningrad and was set to take the city in an assault, when the order from Hitler arrived halting all advances on the city which was to be besieged. The failure to take Moscow was as a result of Hitler's orders to finish the cauldron around Kiev when Moscow could have been taken in August or September 1941. The slow advance and temporary halts were also due mainly to the lack of hard roads in Russia when the rains turned everything to a mud pie.

The chapter on atrocities was out of place in such a work. I especially question his use of such discredited historians such as Goldhagen, which have even been questioned by reputable Jewish historians, and Ward Churchill, whose main claim to fame is that he stated that the victims of 9/11 deserved their fate. Christer quotes Churchill who claims that "perhaps as many as a million troops...were simply executed by Wehrmacht and Waffen-SS units rather than being taken prisoner in the first place." No evidence is cited that such activity ever occured. Bergström also cites that 381,000 Wehrmacht soldiers died in Soviet captivity. This is the understatement of the century. It is known that Stalin gave the orders within days of the start of the campaign to kill or destroy anything German. Until Stalingrad, Germans who surrendered were routinely killed and during the entire war, those Germans who were wounded and fell into Soviet hands were killed on the spot since they would require medical care and could not be forced into labor. Of the 90,000 soldiers who surrendered at Stalingrad, 5,000 ever returned to Germany.

No mention is ever made of the two million German women and girls who were raped by the liberating Red Army who committed the same crimes in Rumania, Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Poland, Hungary. The Red Army also murdered millions of civilians in these countries, the same of which had been committed in the areas taken prior to 22 June 1941.

I have seen estimates that the Red Army sent some five million military and civilian personnel to the USSR for forced labor of which some one million never returned, forever missing.

I think Christer needs to look at the case of Katyn to determine the nature of the Communist beast.

Re: Barbarossa - The Air Battle - Chapter 17 on atrocities
 

Time fo' da lock, yo.

Re: Barbarossa - The Air Battle - Chapter 17 on atrocities
 

Why, the fun just starts. Otherwise it looks like an attempt of censorship. Just let's see how the discussion develops.

Re: Barbarossa - The Air Battle - Chapter 17 on atrocities
 

The communist beast is bear. Up to now millions of bears walking in the snowy streets of Moscow, trying to rape and kill everything of German, English, American etc. origin. They also drink vodka and play balalaika. Only lack of hard roads hampers them to invade Europe. However, the attempt to civilize this horrible croud of bears, undertook some 60 years ago, by the leading european nation, failed only because of lack of hard roads, incredible frost and bears's blood-thirstiness.
It is not for nothing, that all world remebers how valorous and brave German soldier razed to the ground that loathsome race and how he suffered in bears captivity, deprived of medical care and food.

With best regards,
One of the bears.

PS. Looking forward to meeting you in Moscow! Bears are very hungry.

Re: Barbarossa - The Air Battle - Chapter 17 on atrocities
 

Having heard a comment that Auschwitz was a spa comparing to Gulag, I would be much more cautious with such one sided statements. One side was worth of another as the proverb says.

Re: Barbarossa - The Air Battle - Chapter 17 on atrocities
 

I think we can all agree that horrible atrocities were committed by all sides during the last war, without exception. I recall talking to Rod Smith, former CO of 401 RCAF, who related how he and his squadron mates were ordered to "shoot anything that moved" during the latter stages of 2 TAF's campaign over Europe, and how, one day, he deliberately shot up a woman pushing a baby carriage. Just following orders.....

Re: Barbarossa - The Air Battle - Chapter 17 on atrocities
 

No, we cannot. There is a major difference between incidents and general policy. Concerning 2 TAF, there was indeed a case of a general who said on a briefing to strafe anything that moves to let know every Hausfrau what the war is but it was followed by a written order clearly stating that this does not refer to civilian targets. Thus I have no idea what orders Rod Smith followed.

Re: Barbarossa - The Air Battle - Chapter 17 on atrocities
 

Whatever the exact circumstances it is clear by the previous statement that there was some uncertainty with aircrew. At best it was an unclear order. Likewise if a similar directive had been issued by the OKL it would have been regarded as proof of intent, regardless if there had been a counter order. Generally everything on the ground was fair game if it remotely looked like a target (and anything besides if over Germany proper).

Besides there is little in RAF policy that puts such an order out of place. We are talking about the same general policy that aims at bombing the Germans back to the stone age. Strafing a civilian isn't different from bombing him.

Re: Barbarossa - The Air Battle - Chapter 17 on atrocities
 

BTW, I agree with Franek's opinion about Ch. B's. credibility etc.,

I wonder, if he did mention about attrition made by Russian's NKVD prisons in the first weeks of Barbarossa.
Russian had mordered at least 10.000 people there (according own NKVD interenal reports), other calculations estimates this figure for about 15-20.000.
This is important thing, when the first time invading German forces had seen on their eyes about hundred places with bloody mordered. massacred people - prisoners.
There were of course among killed then Polish, Ukrainian, Białorussin etc. also a few captured German (including Luftwaffe crew's too).

There was edited in German in 200o and 2001 next edition (also edited in Poland, 2001, a book about this even and escalation of war's crimes.

The book was written by Bogdan Musiał (Polish title is: Rozstrzelać elementy kontrewolucyjne. Brutalizacja wojny niemiecko-sowieckiej latem 1941 roku).
German soldlier had made many visit to many ex-NKVD's prisons - it was for them total shock. The propaganda made many press news about these crimes, so such began these nasty war of killing people.

PS

This information of course does not meant, that German were "holy people", they had mordered eralier or later also very big figure of innocent, civilian people in Poland or in Russina. German had made own first war's crimes in Poland in IX-X 1939.

Regards,
Mirek Wawrzyński

Re: Barbarossa - The Air Battle - Chapter 17 on atrocities
 

Well, the point is that while most if not all participants committed some war crimes, Germans and Soviet did it as a part of official policy. That is the reason crimes exceeded average margin of such incidents.