Major Hermann Graf's All Yellow FW 190A-6 ?
 

Just joined the forum. My interests are all germam WW2 wepons and aircraft of WW1. Currently have a large number of plastic kits, mostly German. and fly controline model aircraft. Have a Wing Mfg. short kit of a FW190 which i plan to build.

At a plastic scale model contest a few years ago i saw a FW190 painted in all yellow.
Very striking looking but was it accurate?
The mag. article included with the model stated:

Mag: American Aircraft Modeler,Feb 68, page 30
Author: John N. Townsley
Text: Major Hermann Graf FW 190 A-6 leading Geschwader-Richthofen (JG-2 ?) operating in France. Painted in Bright Yellow - Polished and gleaming as a jewel.
Do not have picture and mag. did not have color shots.
Side Markings were <<| + Tail marking was from the Monagram 190 kit Wreath with Knights cross and yellow kill#

No other details as to where the color schem info came from. Has anyone heard of this before? I like the different color variations used by the Luftwaffe especially the desert colors. I have a number of books and articals but none of them referance this color.

Any information available would be appreciated

Howard Shenton

Re: Major Hermann Graf's All Yellow FW 190A-6 ?
 

Very sure that your Hermann Graf all-yellow Fw 190A-6 is complete fiction.

During the summer of 1943 Graf was commander of one of the Erganzungjagdgruppen (a kind of OTU, or operational training unit) in France. His aircraft at that time was a colorfully decorated (but hardly all-yellow) Fw 190A-5, WNr. 2594. A number of photographs of this airplane exist in various publications.

When the Fw 190A-6 hit the newstands in 1943, it represented the cutting edge of Fw 190 evolution and thus mostly went straight where it was needed most, e.g., to first-line RVT units in the West and a few units in the East. Sit down and THINK quietly about the possibilities. Why on God's green earth would a fighter pilot—any fighter pilot, Graf or otherwise—want to draw attention to himself with an all-yellow airplane in the murderous air combat arena of the West during 1943-1944?

RA

Re: Major Hermann Graf's All Yellow FW 190A-6 ?
 

Hi Howard - let me dig out my other bits and pieces and tell you the full story later this evening. I had a right old time investigating this 190 and Major`Graf. The story reached an interesting conclusion recently for me!

Bloody nightmare in some respects . . .

Andy.

Re: Major Hermann Graf's All Yellow FW 190A-6 ?
 

Rabe

I agree with you. It would not be the best thing to be more of a Target in that environment.
But if true then it would be an interesting color for my flying model.
And thank you for your answer.

Andy
Look foreord to your information and conclusions.

Howard

Re: Major Hermann Graf's All Yellow FW 190A-6 ?
 

If I recall correctly, the original FW 190 "Profile", circa 1965 included a color profile of an all-yellow 190 which may have been attributed to Graf. Perhaps this latest sighting is a resurfacing of the old profile publication.

Re: Major Hermann Graf's All Yellow FW 190A-6 ?
 

First of all, Hermann Graf never commanded JG 2.

Secondly, none of the Fw 190s which he flew was all yellow.

Thirdly, Graf didn't fly any missions in the area where that all-yellow Fw 190 is said to have been seen.

Fourth, Graf was not shot down on the date - or even a date close to that date - when the all-yellow Fw 190 should have been shot down.

The whole story about Major von Graff/Graf commanding JG 2 "Richthofen" and flying an all-yellow Fw 190 originates from Pierre Clostermann's "The Big Show". In my book "Graf & Grislawski" (published in August 2003) I examined that closely.

See:

http://www.graf-grislawski.elknet.pl/index.htm

In the latest edition of "The Big Show" (published in 2004, with the foreword written in September 2003), Pierre Clostermann made this new addition regarding the pilot of the all-yellow Fw 190:

"Later we learned that it was not Graff, but maybe Oesau". (p. 50.)

If you want to build good and accurate models of any of Graf's Fw 190s, Claes Sundin has made great colour profiles of 26 different aircraft flown by Graf & Grislawski in the book with the same title, and Eagle Editions has printed decals to all of them. For a link to the decals, see the link above.

Re: Major Hermann Graf's All Yellow FW 190A-6 ?
 

Howard - follow this link to my question about the yellow 190 last November. Christer is absolutely right, it was his book that finally cleared the mystery for me.

http://disc.server.com/discussion.cg...1;pagemark=390

The above link is from the old forum - welcome to this one by the way !

Basically I have come across many sites showing the yellow 190, plastic and r/c. I've also seen a dodgy colour profile in an old book that I binned when I realised it was tosh. Major Graf's fw 190 was however very colourful - I wonder if the largely yellow and red nose has been mistaken for the aircraft being generally 'yellow'.

BUT - who knows for sure?! I'm going to look for some pics to post for you and well I might just build one for the hell of it.

Cheerio,

Andy.

ps. there are some great characters on this forum, respected authors mostly, but also some really great blokes and one or two girlies who love to share their knowledge and help with research.

Later!

Re: Major Hermann Graf's All Yellow FW 190A-6 ?
 

Howard,

be careful with what the Frenchman Closterman says. I won't outright call him a liar but he can spin some very good tales.

Re: Major Hermann Graf's All Yellow FW 190A-6 ?
 

That's a quite strong accusation. Why not instead say that he - as anyone who writes his memoirs - writes according to the information he has access to. If you read Clostermann's book you'll find that he wrote: "we heard on the radio" that a Major von Graff had been wounded. Maybe British propaganda did some spinning? Or maybe there was a slight misinterpretation - as Clostermann actually admits in his latest edition: "Later we learned it was not von Graff".

It wasn't either Clostermann who told profile artists to do dreamed-up profiles of a yellow Fw 190. . .

If you select any biography and put it under a magnifying glass the way you have done with Clostermann's biography, you could find other similar mistakes. I happen to be a great fan of Jimi Hendrix, and I have found some statements in Curtis Knight's biography on Hendrix which are erroneous. Does that give me the right to accuse Jimi Hendrix's old friend Curtis Knight of outright spinning? Wouldn't it rather be a case of some slight failures in the memory?

In his memoirs, Clostermann shows an honest respect for his enemy - unlike the case in many other pilot biographies. Maybe this is a reason why some unreasonable people like to pick on him? Maybe the fact that he didn't console himself to the usual "black-and-white" picture of the "Stoopid Nazi Pilots" made him viable target to some flag waving narrow-minded people?

Clostermann told us his memories as a fighter pilot, and we should be grateful that he did that. I still find it a great read, just like I like e.g. Rudel's memoirs, Pokryshkin's memoirs, and even Steinhoff's two books. If anyone tells me that not every little detail in those books is 100% checked and cross-checked with all kind of sources from all sides, I will agree. But how much can we demand from one man who only wanted to share his memories with us? Of course, as soon as a veteran opens his mouth, the crows will flock and call him "spinner" and "fairy-tale-teller". I've seen it before. No wonder some of the old men prefer to keep their memories to themselves. Thank you very much for that! :mad:

Okay, Ruy, I suppose you'll lock this thread now. It's only me tired of the uncontested sniping at non-present old pilot veterans which I've seen before on this board.

Re: Major Hermann Graf's All Yellow FW 190A-6 ?
 

Perhaps I can explain the mystery of the "yellow" 190. Just a theory :Clostermann reports a certain fight in detail - the fight at the end of which capitaine "Martell" (a nom de guerre) alias Pierre Montet shot down the "all-yellow" 190. I had a tendency to believe Clostermann about the colour for during this final duel he was just an onlooker, he didn't take part in it and it was relatively long, so I figured he had plenty of time to LOOK at the 190. But recently Christer has told us (in his Graf-Grislawski book) that there never was such a yellow bird and I believe him.
What now? Could it be that the sun was setting already and its warm light made the 190 appear yellow for Closter's eyes? Such things are possible, with red too. I made a film myself : the 9 "Alpha Jets" of the "Patrouille de France" flying along a deep valley in the Alps - in the late afternoon, far below. A wonderful sight. The jets turned to the left following the valley... and they were entirely red. A nice, warm, red colour! Surely I am not the only one having seen such a thing. Sometimes you even can see something of the kind in TV commercials : an airliner in the setting sun...
What do the experts think?
Pierre Montet alias "Christian Martell" shot down 6 Fw 190s from 14 May 1943 through 24 Sept. 43, 6 confirmed, unshared victories on 190s in 4 months and 10 days. Not bad considering the opposition.
I entirely share Christer's views on biographies. I know I believed certain things on MY OWN LIFE which were wrong, as I discovered later. I didn't lie, I just was wrong. For example I would have sworn that I was on a certain airfield and did a certain thing but in fact it was another airfield (as my logbook proves). My memory betrayed me. Such things will happen.
One thing can't be disputed : Clostermann sailed to England (he could have stayed safely in the USA as an aeronautics engineer and made aircraft there, and enjoyed private flying (he had some 250 hours already) and California girls. Instead he joined the Free-French in bombed-out England and its terrible English food, even worse during the war! The chances to come back alive were very slim. After some training, formalities and red tape (British and French) he joined the Free-French squadron Alsace in January 1943. From this day on he flew combat operations, almost without any pause, until the end of the war 2 years and 4 months later. Everybody knows that he fought a lot, "which nobody can deny, for he's a jolly good fellow..." : on Spitfires, later on Tempests, ending an acting Wing Commander (Flying). He won a DFC and bar at the rate of his aerial victories, plus a DSO. Not to forget the less glamourous but very dangerous attacks on German trains, columns, airfields etc. While you're duelling with the 20 mm quadruple and 37 mm Flaks of a train you can't shoot down any aircraft at the same time and win even more glory and honours. Once he led his 8 Tempests into an airfield attack. 30 seconds later only 2 Tempests were left including himself. Would YOU accept such odds? I doubt I would (I'd say : "Fighting is OK but I need to have a chance").
I feel he knows his stuff and he knew what he was talking about when he wrote his first book. Who knows - some day maybe some great historian will discover that there actually WAS an all-yellow 190, at least for a few days... No offence Christer, hey?
About Closter's first book "Le grand cirque" I have to add that his writing - in French - makes a deep impression on me every time I read a few pages again. His style is incredible, magnificent, formidable; this really is writing, often poetry. A great, great book! I never read it in another language and I doubt that the author's great style was "translated" too. It's hardly possible anyway, and translations are almost invariably very poor, even very wrong (see what I wrote about Galland's book in English : terrible). Well, I'll have to purchase a copy in English.
At some place in this book he reported how he was sent back from Normandy to England aboard a LCT or something. This passage is so terrific in French that I read it aloud on several occasions for friends who are not air-minded and not at all interested in war. They were impressed too. How about the English version? Is it so impressive too, with the reek of diesel fuel and sea water, the red glow of a fire on the horizon and the boat's propellers who "beat the tempo of my heart, heavy with memories, ...? and sorrow"? This is the most beautiful sentence I ever read and the rest of the book is not bad either in this respect.

Re: Major Hermann Graf's All Yellow FW 190A-6 ?
 

Oh my my Bergstrom, you do have an English comprehension problem, don't you? Yup, a vivid imagination you have reading into some words where there was nothing of the sort. At least I didn't accuse him of being a liar in a slanderous attack on a Brit pilot of his war time memories, as another has done. Why did you leave out the pilot memoirs of British and American pilots in your examples of pilots who have written about their wartime experiences? Why do you have this double standard for pilot memories?

This is Ruy's site, so why do you keep trying to dictate to him how to run it? :(

Re: Major Hermann Graf's All Yellow FW 190A-6 ?
 

Yves, I agree that Clostermann's book is unusually well written, among pilot biographies. There is another quite famous pilot biography which has been translated into Swedish. The language in the original language is just terrible - on the level of a 5th form school kid. But the Swedish translator turned it into a beautifully flowing language. I don't really know what I think about that. :confused:

I have to correct you, if you allow, Yves. I never said (in my Graf-Grislawski book) that there never was such a yellow bird; all I said was that Graf didn't fly such an aircraft, and that Graf wasn't shot down on the date in question (and that Graf never commanded JG 2). I am no expert on camouflage and markings (I leave that to the best expert around, Claes Sundin, who does all the profiles for my books), so I can't say if there ever was an all yellow Fw 190. Maybe there was, maybe there wasn't. Rabe Anton probably knows far more on the topic than I do, and I find his reasoning to be quite logical. But as far as I am concerned, it can't be totally excluded that there ever was an all yellow Fw 190. We all know that some of the German fighter aces were real crackpots, and some of them did really crazy things. Having an aircraft painted all yellow would be extreme, but I wouldn't be too much surprised if I would hear that one of those crazy guys had done that. And it wouldn't be the craziest thing I have heard about WW II fighter pilots. . .

Well said!
 

Well said Christer!
This Swedish translation much better than the original really is something! Very rare! But does it correspond the original contents?

Sorry about my error on that yellow 190. Possibly Martell got some other guy flying her.

Re: Major Hermann Graf's All Yellow FW 190A-6 ?
 

Yes, it corresponds to the original contents. But the language is re-written so that it gets a flow which is missing in the original language.

Clostermann in England
 

I wrote that Clostermann went to bombed-out England (coming from the very safe USA, leaving all the glamourous girls...), where the food was even more terrible than in peacetime, in order to fight Germany, and the chances of survival were very slim.
Of course I didn't mean the hazards of air fighting, the German wolf packs flying 109s and 190s and the highly dangerous Flak. Clostermann was good enough to have a reasonable chance against such dangers. No, I meant he was VERY brave to confront English food, most probably for several years. THIS made his chances of surviving very slim and my respect for his bravery illimitable!

Re: Major Hermann Graf's All Yellow FW 190A-6 ?
 

Hawk Eye,

Your info on Costermann in United States is very interesting to me! I Always thought he left Brasil to join the French pilots in England. I do not remember reading anything about his job in USA. Do you know he had an aviation columm in a newspaper here in Brasil where he even discussed about the planes fighting in WW II ?. He used a nickname ( do not remember the nickname )

Clostermann in Brazil / USA
 

Yes this is true. He almost married the daughter of "the" Brazilian press tycoon. I read the details in one of his books, probably "Une sacrée guerre!" , "A Damned War!" (very long interview by Daniel Costelle, whom I don't quite take seriously to say the least, but PC is all right). By the way, PC was a very young, professional journalist long before he went to war. A most talented man! Brazil considers him a Brazilian citizen for he was borne there. There is a street named "Coronel Clostermann" in his birth city I think - Curitiba - and possibly in some others. Let us remember that Brazil declared war on Germany and was one of the Allied countries.
More details some other time (1.24 hrs now here - I was fighting with some PC software...). Wyatt Earp just won against the bad guys on TV, which is a big relief.

Re: Major Hermann Graf's All Yellow FW 190A-6 ?
 

I guess reviving this thread might cause a few deep sighs but I've learned something interesting that might add some credibility to the story...

Obviously, as losslists show it wasn't a famous ace that got shot down on that day, but there might be a source for that Yellow Fw190. (Although exaggereted or misinterpreted by Clostermann)

In Priens Jagdfliegerverbände 10/IV there's both a photo and and written description of 2./JG2 Fw190's. In July 1943 they flew among others versions, newly delivered Fw190A-6's, that due to the Staffels dual role as day and nightfigther staffel were painted in a monotone light grey scheme. The photos also shows a yellow rudder and given the color standards of the time the lower engine cowlin would most likely have been yellow too.

On July 27:th 1943, a 2./JG2 Fw190A-6 was shot down, just 30km's south of Le Havre were the fight was said to have happened. The pilot was Fritz Stückemann who was killed.

So, all the sudden, there actually is an Fw190A-6, in the right place on the right day and with a camouflage that could actually without much exaggeration be interpreted as yellow. Specially in a setting sun. As been mentioned earlier in the thread, the light conditions can really play tricks with the colors, especially if there's an aircraft in a monotone color with some additional splashes of yellow on the rudder and engine cowling.

Not calling this one solved, but Stückemann has certainly taken pole position as the possible pilot of the "yellow" Fw190 in my mind.

Edit: I should add that Mr. Bergströms article in Graf & Grislawski saved me a lot of work and served as great inspiration as well.

Re: Major Hermann Graf's All Yellow FW 190A-6 ?
 

Dear Howard,

Your original query about the camouflage and pictures of one of the machines flown by Hermann Graf can be found at the very nice book written by Bernd Barbas, which I humbly suggest you: Aircraft of the Luftwaffe Fighter Aces (there are two volumes):
http://www.amazon.com/Aircraft-Luftw.../dp/0887407528

You will find two or three actual pictures of this machine and a lovely lateral painting. One of the most beautiful Focke Wulfs 190 A I ever saw indeed...

All the best
Adriano S. Baumgartner