From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

Has anyone got this book yet? I tried to order in through Amazon.com and today they said they wouldn't be getting it any time soon. I checked other U.S. sites on line and it's not there either.

Re: From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

hi, check amazon.co.uk, I just placed an order from a seller the_book_depository there.

Re: From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

The book has just been printed, currently is being bind.
It should be officially released by the end of this month.

I'll keep you updated (there is already a separate thread related to this book).

P.S. For anyone interested in a signed copy, I will have a limited number of copies available. Contact me via PM.

Re: From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

Here is the planned cover of the book:

http://img530.imageshack.us/img530/4...ruploadip3.jpg

Re: From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

Denes
Approximately when should we expect the second volume to be published?

Re: From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

Vol. 2 should be out by the end of this year.

Re: 'From Barbarossa to Odessa' (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

To my delight, volume 1 has now been published:
http://www.ianallanpublishing.com/ca...ducts_id=54247

Re: From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

It is exciting to see more pieces of the puzzle. Congratulations.




Ed

Re: From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

I´ve just posted a very quick review over at the LEMB :)

and once again, congrats Denes on a job well done!

Re: From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

Thanks, Phil, for the kind words.
I am looking forward for more impressions of the book from others, too.

Re: From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

Hello Denes!

as I found some time to read the first 15 pages of your new book, I do post some more comments, basically also a main question that bothers me since having read some of Christer´s books.

In the introduction, you mention the supposed obsolescence of a large proportion of the VVS equipment.

Christer on the other hand, in his new Midland title, quite clearly states, that compared to other air forces in 1941, the VVS planes compared quite favourably.
and after thinking a little more about this, I tend to agree with him.

planes like the I-16, the Pe-2, the IL-2 and even more so the Yak-1 were very good planes, compared to British types like the Hurricane, the Blenheim or even the Spit Mk V, being in use by the time, Barbarossa started.
even the SB-2 compared favourably with the Blenheim IMHO, and planes like the IL-4, DB-3 or even the Yer-2 were as good as Wellingtons or Whitleys, again IMHO.

that the VVS was slaughtered at the beginning of Barbarossa surely had not so much to do with a marked superiority of LW planes, tactics and pilot experience (and politics-many commanding officers were shot when they were considered not brave or aggressive enough IIRC) had a large part to do with that either.

so maybe we could start a little discussion about this topic.
was the LW really that much superior equipment wise?
Personally, I do not think so:

what do others think?

cheers
phil

Re: From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

Hello Phil
I generally agree with You with following exceptions, Bf 109F and Ju 88A were better than comparable Soviet aircraft and numerous I-15bis and R-5 a/c were obsolent.
IMHO SB(-2) wasn't as good as Blenheim, that was why Finnish AF equipped its Maritime sqn with them and not with Blenheims. Finns used both and Blenheims were used only in bomber sqns.
And IMHO Spitfire V was better fighter than Yak-1 or early versions of LaGG-3 but not markedly so. But Pe-2, DB-3F/Il-4 and Il-2 were good planes if one had good fighters to escort them.

Juha

Re: From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

This is purely political bias of the author. Of course Soviet 'modern' designs were not as obsolescent as eg. Gladiator but they were not in in the class of Western aircraft of the period. One of the tricks is to compare aircraft of different periods. Yak-1 or LaGG-3 went into production at the end of 1940, so they should be rather compared to such aircraft like Mustang, Airacobra, possibly Fw 190. Also, Spitfire Vs were markedly superior to Soviet designs, as testified by successes of 57 GvIAP on Kuban in 1943.

Re: From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

Very interesting and challenging topic. I will jump in later on.
However, it should be discussed in a separate thread in another sub-forum, not here.

Before that, let's remember that on the Southern Front there were no Yak-1s, Il-2s or Yer-2s at the start of Operation Barbarossa.

There were indeed so-called "new types" (e.g., Pe-2, Su-2), that were equal to most German types in service in mid-1941, but their number was rather small (IIRC, I even gave a percentage of about 25%). More in the new thread.

Re: From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

Just to be clear, Franek, please mention which author are you referring to.

Re: From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

Denes, you know that I am not referring to you!

Re: From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

Denes, are these two books going to cover the areas of the Russian South and Southwest Fronts or just the Southwest?

Phil, since you read the "other book" and this one is more area focus, How does the Russian bomber offensive compare for detail?

Re: From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

I agree with Dénes and Phil that the subject of comparing USSR/other Allied and Luftwaffe aircraft on the eve of Barbarossa is a potentially interesting discussion. However, the current thread is discussing Dénes new book (congratulations BTW), so those of you who wish to, please start a new thread on the subject of aircraft comparisons. I would suggest the General WWII section rather than either Allied or Luftwaffe.

In the meantime, let keep this thread focused on Dénes' book.

Re: From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

From the Soviet side, the books cover the action of mainly the Southern Front, obviously, and only incidentally the South-Western Front, in cases when there were some overlaps in the areas of action, or some Southern Front units - less pressed than their northern neighbours - went to help the hard hit SWF, particularly in late July.

Re: From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

Yes, I know, but others might not. That's why my request.:)

Re: From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

I put my 2 cents to this topic.
Of course Il-2 were not on 22 VI 1941, the 4. SzAP was send on Western Front in the end of June 41. Anyway during the battle for Odessa there were separate assoult unit equipted with Il-2.
Soviet used them - Il-2s - as a "fire brigade", so you should also mentioned this particular small thing in your book (?).
Karlenko, if I am right, is well aware about this topics too.

Yer-2 was a long distance bomber introduced into combat unit in July/August 1941. Firs use during night attak on Berlin in August 1941 ( a few planes)
Such planes (Yer-2) were never used as a "army or frontal bombers" It was high comand reserve - Stalin.
Anyway for example in 55. IAP you have from the begining MiG-3, which was very modern in June 1941.
Secon Su-2 was quite good "assoult-dive" plane, ane there were a few regiment with this bomber.

Romanian P.11, P.24, or He 112, or Hurricane I were not so "factory fresh" like this Soviet fighters. The same was with bombers like P.23 or Blenheims or P.37 and Soviet SB with M-103 engines ect.


Regards
Mirek Wawrzynski,
an author, for example, "Hurricane over Constanca and Odessa" from 2006.

Re: From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

Actually, the Il-2 was first introduced in combat on the Southern Front on 17 July, with 232 ShAP.

For the details, I recommand you to read the book. :)

Re: From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

Any opinions by those who have read the book?

P.S. Currently working hard on vol. 2...

Re: From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

Hi there,

i am currently reading.

My impression: the book is more than worthy for its price.

It's quite detailed in describing air combats and their results.
Especially the informations about air actions of VVS and ARR are interesting (and quite new i think).
Also the photos are well in quantity and quality.

Some critics i have to add too;

- the book has a very little focus at ground operations, which are very important (IMHO) to unterstand air operations at the eastern front. Both were very close connected.

- why there is not a word about the claims of Pokryshkin in the first days? (see also BC/RS Vol.1), or i didn't see it?

Re: From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

Thanks, Jens, for your kind opinion.

As for the critics, details on ground operations were not largely included in the text simply because of lack of printing space (although, there is a fairly detailed introduction, which explains the military and political situation back then, and how did this situation end up as it did). The page number was originally set by the Publisher to 96, which the Publisher did not want to change. Even so, the Editor managed somehow to squeeze in 93,000 words, instead of the recommended 50,000 (hence the small font size).

As for Pokryshkin's claims from the first days of war, based on his memoirs, if they are not included in our book, it simply means that no trace of these claims could be found in the archives. :confused: We did mention the name of St. Lt. Pokryshkin, though...

Re: From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

I see,

Bergstrom indicated that Fw. Köhler of JG-77 was maybe shoot down by Pokryshkin on 24.6.41 , but the book "odessa" stated it was due AAA.

So i think your info is more concret and so maybe right?

PS: Bergstrom also stated that documents of 55. IAP seems to be lost.

Re: From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

Denes, Should we look at the times listed as Eastern European for the Axis operations and the VVS as Moscow time? The records seem to be incomplete for the VVs losses on the regiment level from what I've read. On the 24Jun41 the VVS ChF raid on Constanza that was intercepted by III/JG52 it seems possible that Friedrich Wachowiak's 1st victory didn't go down. That leaves Gerhard Koeppen claiming 2 and 9 other pilots claiming one each. You indicated that 2MTAP was one of the units which was probably the 3 DB-3F's unit were the 7 SB's from 40SBAP?
Now the "smoking gun question" for the 15Jul41. You have St. Lt. Alexander Pokryshkin 55IAP's MiG-3 listed as crashed in the swamp 3 km N of Grozeshti with no cause. Stab/JG77 Fw Erwin Sawallisch claimed his 7th kill a MiG-3 over Kishinev. I've checked Dr. Prien's JFV 6/II and no one else claiming a MiG-3. Was Pokryshkin shot down by a Bf-109 and how close are these areas?
The book is great and I wait for the 2nd volume.
Michael

Re: From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

Jens, recent Russian research by Mikhail Bykov clearly indicates that Pokryshkin claims cannot be supported by any archival documentation. Most importantly, it does not support thesis of lost papers, as there is everything present for all the remaining airmen of 55 IAP. In another words, all signs on earth indicate Pokryshkin's memoirs are fiction.

Re: From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

Don't you think that's a surprisingly harsh statement? In effect you are calling Pokryshkin a liar.

Re: From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

Well, it looks like I do, but all the credit should go to Mikhail Bykov, who get through tons of documents of various levels of Soviet command and verified score of Pokryshkin, providing dates of all known his kills. It turned out Pokryshkin is not second highest scoring Soviet ace, not even a third one, but placing somewhere at the end of the first 10. There is also a history that he has stolen some kills from Rechkalov, so I think it looks indeed very harsh.
All I can say is that FBTO is based on most recent research, and the other book should not be considered reliable, at least in this respect.

Re: From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

Al times were chaged to East European Time (EET), where most of the air battle took place. This is mentioned somewhere in the book.

As for 'who shot down whom?', we deliberately did not engage in such kind of debate and guessing, and leave this matter to the readers' enjoyment. Of course, I am willing to discuss it on this (and other) forums, but not in the book, as it mostly generates various claims, which cannot be 100% proven ever.

P.S. Grozeshti is about 50 km W of Kishinev (Chisinău), so it's perfectly plausible to think that Fw. Erwin Sawallisch could have been the victor over Pokryshkin. However, as noted above, there is no firm proof.

P.P.S. We deliberatly did not quote from Pokryshkin's memoirs, for a good reason...

Re: From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

So some questions, since the most think Pokryshkins memoirs are not reliable.

His kills aren't confirmable or even his claims?
It would be no great surprise to me, if his claims weren't correct even if in 1:8 ratio. But a surprise would be for me, if even his claims can't be confirmed.

Are his crash and emergency landings confirmable?

Re: From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

His memoirs are not reliable in respect of his claims and confirmed victories.

Re: From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

If you can read Russian, worth to check it about Pokrishkin (and the mentioned affair with Rechkalov) in Mikhail's site:

http://www.avia-hobby.ru/publ/pokr_r...okr_rechk.html

Re: From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

I could not recommend this "paper". Only rumours and few facts. Only fact of additionaly 2 plane shot by Rechkalov could be accepted. The rest... As the russians say "one woman say..."

Re: From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

I would not call references to numerous documents just 'rumours'. Definetelly worth a read.

Re: From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

ty for the link, will read it.

Re: From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

Hello
I got just my copy of Dénes’ From Barbarossa to Odessa. Seems to be crammed with info, the font is very small, Jukka should like it. I’m not complaining because what I’m looking from books is info and I prefer small font with more info to bigger font with less info but IMHO best solution is bigger font with more pages but if the publisher has limited the number of pages too small for the essential info I cannot see other satisfactory solution than small font.

I haven’t have time to read the book but checked a couple thinks but didn’t find the answers. So Dénes, have You changed your opinion on Kassa bombing? I have seen your opinion in an old AI (in connection to a P.37 article) and some 5 years ago on some disc. boards. Yes or no is enough if you don’t now want to handle this “hot” question more deeply.
Secondly, there is no info on the effect of the ingenious zveno-SPB attack on 26th June. I know the Soviet view and Your view on early Aug attacks because I have copies of the relevant AEs (nos 71, 73 and 84). So what were the results of the 26th July attack?

I’ll open a new thread on the question was the LW losses on 22th June 41 worst to date or not because it is a more general question.

I wait eagerly the moment when I’ll have time to begin read your book.
Juha

Re: From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

I got a sample page from Denes (thanks!) and it looks just what the doctor ordered. You suggest bigger font with more pages, I suggest small font with more pages! BTW, where did you buy it from?

Re: From Barbarossa to Odessa (Luftwaffe Strikes Pt 1)
 

Moi Jukka
I ordered it from Amazon.co.uk because I was ordering a couple of other books from there in the same time.

Juha