Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"
 

Hi

Does any one have any info on a CD compiled from the archive of the "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe" detailing aircraft losses of the German Luftwaffe. The CD in Microsoft Excel format contains information on aircraft Wnr's, pilots etc and many entries include links to further information which can be found in aviation books. The CD does not contain every aircraft lost during the war but the loss list has been compiled using the Luftwaffe Quartermaster Returns.

Regards
David

Re: Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"
 

This item seems to have become something of the 'Holy Grail' of those interested in the history of the Luftwaffe......

Re: Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"
 

Hello Jim

I have just won this CD on e-bay will see if its any good. Not expecting to much but you never know.

Cheers
David

Re: Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"
 

CD is on e-bay here

Luftwaffe Aircraft Losses 1939 - 1945 on CD Rom Item number: 290137431925

Regards
David

Re: Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"
 

Something like 20.000 entries,

On the general return losses, we hv

1939/40 9000 +
1941 10000+
1942 14500+
1943 23000+

1944/45 I hv for the moment a bit more than 30.000

It could be interesting to know what's on in the CD

Remi

Re: Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"
 

I received the CD that I bought on eBay on a "Buy Now" price on Monday, July 16. The main thing which is NOT on the CD is the date of the loss. Until this gets corrected on the files on the CD I cannot recommend purchasing this, even at the low price being asked. The lack of dates may be part or all of the reason for the low price. I have asked for a replacement disk with dates, or a refund.

Frank.

Re: Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"
 

Frank - I had same reaction. worthless to me without both dates and locations.

Re: Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"
 

Hi to all,
Re: loss/data list

I have this copy in my archive and it has been compiled by using many official documents together with many hundreds of other references including aircraft markings, linked photographic sources etc, etc.
In column K can be found the date of loss and a little further the location of the incident if known. Perhaps our two celebrated members now need glasses?

Kind regards

Melvin Brownless
"Anglo-deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"

Re: Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"
 

Melvin,
I have checked several of the files again, and with the help of your eBay email, I have found the dates. They are in the column labelled "Remarks", mixed in with other text related to the loss. In two formats, as 16.4.41 or as 24.April 1941, with other surrounding text. In any case, not sortable, or searchable. It is going to take a lot of work to create a new column of just the date, and extract it from the Remarks.

My eyes may be getting old, but I was looking for a column of nothing but dates, the only reasonable way to prepare this kind of data. You need to think about how one would go about using this data.

Bill,
The location is there, in the column labelled Locale. Not perhaps as precise as you would want it, but that is probably due to the original data.

Frank.

Re: Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"
 

Hello Frank,

Thank you for your response it is much appreciated. I do agree that it is a little difficult to navigate but it can be used by using your tool bar. click on any box in a column relating to what sort of search you want to carry out, click edit on the tool bar when the short list appears select "find what" put in a Wnr, name etc etc and if its in the data base the programme will find it. This data/loss CD has taken a very long time to compile due to all the references etc I still have thousands to add which I have in hard form like the Quartermasters Returns + several thousand WASt reports. Any problems then please contact me again.

Kind regards,

Melvin Brownless
"Anglo-deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"

Re: Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"
 

Fank/Melvin - thanks. It probably is worth buying if the dates are extractable and sortable

Re: Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"
 

Geez, maybe I should consider selling copies of my db - I've somme 75+ K entries, not to mention about 75K claims.....

Re: Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"
 

Hi Jim,

You should consider selling copies. I'd buy a copy of your losses database if the price was reasonable.

Regards

Andy Fletcher

Re: Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"
 

...make that two copies :)

Cheers

Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

Re: Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"
 

...three!

Regards

Robert

Re: Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"
 

Hi

count me in

Bruce Lander

Re: Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"
 

Be nice if I could, however there is a lot of info that I have that certainly is not mine to sell at the moment. For right now guys, sorry.

But it may be worth a discussion with my partner(s) for the future. Maybe with the removal of some items it might be possible to do without fracking over some people that have been very generous and helpful through the years.

Re: Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"
 

Jim, how about a hard copy with some photos, perhaps profiles and possibly a CD as an appendix?

Re: Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"
 

Well, Jim, given your ability to give details of losses and claims on this forum, I will certainly buy anything that will you provide...

But I understand your point on the fact to "give away" work from other people.

Re: Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"
 

I must be crazy - I give my stuff away all the time and have gotten a lot of stuff back - Ted Damick, Peter Randall, Martin Kyburz, Don Caldwell, Eric Brown and Frank Olynyk come to mind immediatey - not to mention Leo, Laurent and quite a few on this board.

I guess my perspective is 'Get er done' - there is a lot more organized data today that is far more reliable and necessary to do a good job historically. I will deny no serious historian my stuff - free.

Regards,

Bill

Re: Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"
 

Bill,

One is to give away stuff, I am not the last to make that, an other is to offer a structured data-base, even for some thousands dollars is no worth, so for 10 or 20 imagine...

rémi

Re: Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"
 

Hi, guys.

I firmly believe the only way to go about this issue is to make the data available through a relational database, which references the source of the information, and I also believe that publishing it via some format is Ok, but the data then is only static...

We all know that all the time new information appear, that offers further insight and better quality of data, from an immense number of localized and centralized sources.

Of course, guys like Remi and Jim knows about the amount of work that go into creating such a database and publishing it.

I have created a database that now have been proofed by other helping hands with regards to flexibility and ability to cross-reference the kind of information we need to use in this work, and it is working without flaws.

I have also created a user interface for the database based on ASP.NET 2.0 which give a nice object-oriented way of programming views etc for the database.

My idea the whole time has been that the database should be available on the internet, but I am not willing to give the entire content of it away for free.

So I have kind of decided for a membership scheme, and the guys I have been talking to also suggest that membership would be by personal application, with references, thus you would have to have one guy I trust vouch for your integrity. (as one put it earlier here, this would be like putting your hand into the pot of honey and withdraw the good stuff... instantly...)

So my question to you guys is then:

What would be a reasonable fee for allowing access to such a source of data?

As of now, the data consist of:

All losses registered by the Genst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt. for frontline and school + other units

A serious amount of losses for 1944 where data come from the Namentliche Verlustemeldungen (numbers here are increasing all the time)

All summary loss record for frontline units (which of course give you the basic data for all losses sustained in 1944)

All available strength reports of the frontline units from March 1942 through December 1944, with additional information from other sources from the time before and after these dates for some units.

In addition, the user interface is based upon the idea that all that have access will be able to participate in the process of enhancing the data. Thus - if you for example come across a piece of information in the WASt, the BA-MA, in a local police report or whatever that will give additional information, you can add this, and we all instantly can see this.
(I have included a scheme here that allows the author to set a access level for new information, so that you can use the online database to store information that you are not willing to shae with others, for example while gathering data for a publication, so you do not HAVE to share immediately, but can wait until publication date for example)

I have also included a personnel record, aircraft record and 'war diary' in the system.

The personnel record was a result of my own need to gather information not only about aircraft losses, but also other info about a persons career in the Luftwaffe. Some information is inserted automatically, when you enter a loss where a certain person is involved, you will be able to see this in his personnel record etc etc

The aircraft record was born as a need to follow the tracks of a given aircraft from it was produced until it was destroyed. Some aircraft will appear in a lot of records, like photographs, inventory returns, operational information (He 59 XX+XX on search & rescue patrol from 09:07 to 11:56).

The war diary is where I keep my dated records, photos, extracts from KTB's, and all snippets of information.

All relevant information is of course linked and referenced, which in my opinion is very important. If you do not know where the information originally came from (book, photogrpahic interpretation, original document...) it is more or less useless.

So, hopefully you will have some comments on how to proceed with this?

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"
 

Andreas, well, for some 100$ is nothing and for some 1$ is a fortune. Mind the interest in history is not limited geographically.
How about adding photos to the database?

Re: Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"
 

Andreas I will without problem pay for use of your database. For me it will always be more interesting than buying the list and having to insert them into a database of my own.

Then the shape you can give to the website will depend of what you want to show. A good example IMHO of a good Internet database with both public (free) and private (not free) access is www.uboat.net.

The main danger you will be facing will be "data stealing", but I think you can reduce it by limiting the number of requests per day to a reasonable number.

Re: Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"
 

Andreas has a very interesting project going which I think deserve its own thread to reach all on TOCH. As it is now some people might have stopped following this thread.

Regarding the project Andreas told us about;
It is positive (clever) that you have added some very usefull functions/ research tools which I definately think you should charge a fee for. Obviously access to the database is worth paying a fee for too.

I would expect that there is a correlation between the size of the membership fee and the willingness to add and correct data in the base.
With a membership fee set to high the willingness to add and to correct data in the database will be lower since the member feels that he/she is paying for the access/information and has the right to the information/functionality.

Possibly you could stimulate the willingness to share/correct data by for example extending the membership for those who actively contribute. In that way one could possibly secure a free (?) membership by contributing a lot. Just an idea.

The question is Andreas what the purpose of the fee is since it will affect who will join.
Is it to secure that only serious researchers will join?
Is it to secure funding for maintaining and further developing the database/functionality?
Is it a way to make some money for the founding team (e.g. support further research trips to Freiburg etc)?

Would you accept publishers and magazines as members?

/Mikael

Re: Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"
 

I think this is a great idea put forward by Andreas and Mikael has raised some very good points. I for one would be willing to pay/subscribe especially given that I (and many others here) know from first hand experience the time and cost involved with undertaking all aspects of research.

But how do you stop that data becoming available to those who have either not paid/subscribed, or stop unscrupulous individuals selling the data by other means? The simple answer with both these points is that we can't as it's the one aspect of this wonderful medium we all use and enjoy that cannot be policed or moderated.

Other than that, I'd support this project best I can and ensure it gains good coverage over on the LEMB...

Cheers

Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

Re: Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"
 

Hello all,

Please check the LBB forum - as there was a similar discussion going on -

see: http://www.luftwaffe-bullet-board.co...ght=abst%FCrze

Regards
Rob

Re: Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"
 

One solution to give access without allowing easy copy will be to build "image files" covering say 50 losses, and link each loss of the database to the page displaying it.

Then a search will return a list of pages, with the line number, but by clicking on it you will see the good thing on the screen but could not download it easily into another database, you will have to type it again.

Another idea is to limit access to known reliable people. But you can never be sure...

Re: Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"
 

Well - I for one would pay either subscrition fee or search/find fee (the latter harder to construct for billing purposes) and to the serious researchers you may still have all my stuff on 355th for free

Regards,

Bill

Re: Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"
 

Would it be feasable for you, or someone else you fully trust, to check for specific inquiries for a nominal fee? This way, you could make sure the information is not 'leaked'.

For example, I would be interested to know for the book I am currently fevereshly working on, if the Soviet claim of "five of the nine Ju 52s, transporting fuel for German armour, shot down in Nikolayev area on 10 Aug. 1941" has any backing in your database or not (I couldn't find anything in mine).

Re: Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"
 

Just one Ju52 lost from 6 to 17 aug.41, the 12. from Kgrbv104 bei Nikolajew due to ennemy wN 2872 G6+FV 4 dead 1 wounded certainly a crash or crash landing

Remi

Re: Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"
 

Picky maybe but how can an "Erinnerungsgruppe" (feminine) be "Anglo-Deutsches" (neuter)? Is the name being misquoted slightly?

Re: Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"
 

and a list of members would help to clarify if this list is anything worth at all.....by knowing who made the CD we certainly can determine its value better...

Re: Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"
 

Check your PM's John :)

Cheers,

Peter D Evans
LEMB Administrator

Re: Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"
 

Thanks, Rémi, for the Ju 52 loss data. However, I already had that one (which fits the geographical area I am studying, and I already have this loss and included it already in the text.
The loss list reinforces my opinion that the 5 Ju 52 claims for Aug. 10 were unfounded.

However, returning to the original topic, I am following with great interest the outcome, as maybe a viable solution will eventually be reached, which would allow the interested and serious, reliable persons to have (even limited) access to the loss database(s).

Is anything similar compiled by our Russian/Ukrainian colleagues on VVS losses, which could be accessed in a certain way, with preconditions? That would be great, indeed.

Re: Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"
 

The last entry of Bernes, is worth a complement, periods still in the shadow, the east-front part. 1944 so thks for the russian members, april to august 1940 but Peter + the dutcho-belgians nd the dano-norwegians hv already made a quite good work on, the polish campaign but seems Marius the right guy to be, south-ost for 1944 greeks seem not motivate..., kroats better,italy thks to Nick Beale the things are better, gen. 1944, for all these ones + some "niches" the "local" people is quite necessary, Michal give us the example of what we could find in "perifics" archives. so quite a big group to build up...

Rémi

Re: Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"
 

Hi.

A bit of vacation mode for me these days.

Here is the loss data for the 12.08.1941 loss:

http://www.ahs.no/ref_db/lw_loss_pub...?lossid=117548

Could not establish any losses for 10.08.1941 either

Regards,
Andreas B

Re: Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"
 

Gee guys, looks my database is already sale, unfortunately not by me and a 7-8 year-old version to boot - at least if the 'copy' of this database I received is legit. Same file layout, same funky German/English syntax that many of you have probably seen from my posts - same long markings descriptions George Morrison used way back when he started the thing as a way to keep track of models he wanted to build.....

Re: Luftwaffe losses CD "Anglo-Deutsches Erinnerungs Gruppe"
 

Anything new on the availability of this or any similar database?

Rob Romero