Official difference between the G-10 and K-4 windscreen??
 

Differences between the G-10 and K-4 Windscreen...

Okay G-10 WNr. 610937 has the very late style K-4 Frontage as seen in the photo below. It looks like a conversion from the G style, as you can see all the welding look like it was done in the field.

On the G, normally this entire aluminum structure was made from one piece of aluminum as seen in the second photo.


http://www.geocities.com/mr-bigg@sbc...610937_101.JPG



http://www.geocities.com/mr-bigg@sbc...et/098_981.JPG


I cannot seem to find many pics of the G-10 with the upper cowling removed to reveal this area of the windscreen.

My question is...as the G-10's were older G's converted to K standard, would this upgrade have been done quite regularly?

Reason why I ask is I am repairing the G screen in the second photo to G-10 standard, and wondering if it would be more correct to keep it as the older G style, or upgraded K like in the first pic.

I am building a cockpit section to replicate the G-10 W.Nr. 611943 at Planes of Fame, and have no photos of that area (they also do not reply to emails).

Does anyone have any info they can help with?

Re: Official difference between the G-10 and K-4 windscreen??
 

Sorry to be unable to help on the specific questions, but I thought it worth to underline that the informations you're working from looks quite outdated. As proved by later researches (ask for instance to Carl Charles or Jörg Meincke) and by the production documents (especially those by Erla) it is now clear beyond doubt that the G-10s weren't at all "older G-s converted to K standard", but brand new aircraft of brand-new construction. Just for the sake of precision.

Re: Official difference between the G-10 and K-4 windscreen??
 

Ferdinando,

You said, “it is now clear beyond doubt that the G-10s weren't at all ‘older G-s converted to K standards’ but brand new aircraft of brand-new construction.” Does your statement extend to all G-10s, especially those produced by WNF?

I have long suspected that the Bf 109 G-10s produced by Messerschmitt and Erla were not rebuilds, but were actually newly-produced airframes. These two factories were consistent in producing clean looking G-10s with little or no over painting or other signs of rebuilding.

WNF-built Bf 109 G-10s are usually much rougher looking and give the appearance of being rebuilt G-6 or G-14 fuselages. The G-10s documented at Neubiberg are prime examples of this. While I suppose this could be the result of wear and tear on the planes as they fought their way back to Germany, surely some newly-delivered WNF aircraft should have a fresher appearance. In 1945, II./JG 52 was operating close to the WNF factory, so they probably received replacement aircraft until the bitter end. Also, the few Erla-built Bf 109 G-10s found at Neubiberg were much cleaner looking than the majority of II./JG 52’s WNF-built 109s. Finally, the factory ID tags present on the Neubiberg G-10s that came to the US after the war show that they were rebuilt airframes.

This raises several possibilities: If all G-10s were rebuilds, Messerschmitt and Erla took much more time and precious paint to refinish their older G-6 and G-14 fuselages than did WNF. Or perhaps as you suggest, Messerschmitt and Erla were building ‘new’ G-10s, while WNF was mostly modifying older airframes into G-10s.

I have been out of the loop on some of this research lately. If my questions have already been answered, I apologize in advance.

Steve Sheflin

Re: Official difference between the G-10 and K-4 windscreen??
 

If one believes the C-AMT monthly reports, ALL of the G-10s coming from Messerschmitt, Erla, etc. were Neubau. As often, the devil was in the details. IMHO, I believe the drastic production changes instituted during the summer of 1944 had much to do with some of the apparent anomalies. The time between first metal being cut and BAL acceptance of an aircraft was probably months, not weeks. Also, the final assembly subtypes probably were driven by engine availability. Thus a fuselage that may have started in the cycle in 1943 might not fly away until well into 1944. I have seen photos of rows of new 109 fuselages sitting in open fields. A new airplane may have been assembled from new components that for various reasons had been in the production inventory for an extended period, such components may have been modified along the way, even to the point of having W.Nr. or subtypes changed. As for going from photos, unless one knows the history of the specific airframe, drawing generalized conclusions may be fallacious as IIRC, there literally dozens of sites that were involved in Bf 109 Umbau and repair. In the last year of the war with the emphasis on numbers of aircraft sent out the door, I suspect there were many "unofficial" Bf 109 configurations flying , i.e. not in accordance with Messerschmitt "production standard". Just my take, of course I do not pretend to be an expert in this matter.

Best regards,

Artie Bob

Re: Official difference between the G-10 and K-4 windscreen??
 

Sorry Fernando,

G-10 were NOT a brand-new aircraft of brand new construction.

G-10 production began in Oct 1944 to August 1945, with approx. 6000 airframes built at factory, but again, these were airframes already built as G airframes, and then converted. The object was, through a parallel conversion process, to suppliment the new K-4 with repaired aircraft (G-14 and G-6's) of almost equal value in the cheapest manner possible. The K-4 was produced from July 44 to March 46, so there was really no point to start making downgraded aircraft alongside the K-4 at the same factory. All G-10's were repaired airframes, which were converted at factory or field.

There was 1 Handbook and 1 Manual made for every aircraft built. I have been through all the archives at EADS (formerly Messerschmitt AG), and NO G-10 manual, handbook or blueprints exist. I also have been thorugh a private collection (bigger than the Messerschmitt Foundation) with the same results. However, I have found many original Me262 and Me109K-4 Handbooks and manuals, both of which were made much less in number than the G-10.

The G-10's have a HUGE amount of differences, that are not consistant with a series production of a NEW airframe. Some have large tail with short tailwheel, late style hood or early hood, DB605D or DB605A, larger tires, older wing...and a combination of all of these or one of these. Also, most G-10's had the ORIGINAL Data tag of a G-6 or G-14 in addition to the upgraded data tag...clearly showing the upgrade from G.

;)

Mike

Re: Official difference between the G-10 and K-4 windscreen??
 

Hello Mike,

let me join in and add a few remarks:

Quote:
"G-10 were NOT a brand-new aircraft of brand new construction.
G-10 production began in Oct 1944 to August 1945, with approx. 6000 airframes built at factory, but again, these were airframes already built as G airframes, and then converted".

This statement is somewhat puzzling. All three manufacturers of late war Messerschmitt Bf 109s were the subject of a thoroughly research: Peter Schmolls works on Messerschmitt-Regensburg and Klaus Haberfellners' on Wiener-Neustädter-Werke are already published. Jörg Meinckes (aka Rasmussen) comprehensively research on Erla-Leipzig hopefully will emerge at the (near?) future. I myself did a little research on my own and with the kind support of Jörg and Peter am quite familiar with Messerschmitt-production in late-war Germany.

To my knowledge none of the mentioned producers of Bf 109s was involved in recycling older airframes in late 1944/45 (no "Umbau", "Umrüstung" or "Reparatur"). The production facilities and the work-flow of MTT-Regensburg, WNF and Erla-Leipzig are known in detail and there is no indication for any kind of recycling. On the other hand, all known Werknummern for G-10 a/c can easily be connected to these three producers.

This leads me to the conclusion, that the G-10 was a batch of regular newly-built aircraft, no room for recycling. I vaguely remember, that a very few G-10s from Erla-Leipzig were originally G-14s brought to G-10 standard before they left the factory (so no recycling!). Perhaps Rasmussen can help us.

This is the recent state of my knowledge. If you have information on a recycling process in 1944/45, I would be delighted, if you share your sources with us. This would alter the picture of Luftwaffe late war supply considerably.

Carl

Re: Official difference between the G-10 and K-4 windscreen??
 

Mike,

I am not certain about those Bf 109s you note produced between April and August 1945, as they are a real surprise to me, but G-10s between September and March were listed as Neubau, if you understand what that means. As noted, the production inventory cycle lasted for months, components (not aircraft). Final assembly of Neubau G-10s came from factories, not factory as MttR, ErlaD and WNF are listed. This all comes from primary documentation through March 1945, it gets a bit iffy after that. I thought my explanation of the RLM documentation and production cycle were fairly clear with caveats as needed, but apparently not. But then, I do not claim to be an expert, however, if you already knew all the answers why ask the questionS?

Best Regards,

Fernando (aka Artie Bob)

Re: Official difference between the G-10 and K-4 windscreen??
 

I think you should have a look to JaPo's book (Ales Janda and Tomas Poruba) on Bf109G-10/U4 , the whole production process for WNF and its factory Diana in Czech Rep is detailled .

I am not specialized in that aircraft , so one could correct me but the "raison d'être" , od Bf 109G-10 is to have currently produced Bf109G airframes with a powelfull engine (DB605D) . There are too many differences between Bf 109K and Bf109G . So not to have to tool new pieces the Bf 109K engine was adapted to a 'standard' Bf 109G airframe .

Each manufacturer manage it is different ways, there were Erla solution, (a square plate on port side) , Mtt one , and WNF/Dianan one .

But I can say that these machines were newly produced ones , no recycling . The repair / recycling process is completelly different . It could be done at factory level but on different lines , or in other specialized centres.

Eric

Re: Official difference between the G-10 and K-4 windscreen??
 

I think the problem lies with misunderstanding what the conversion is. It is now commonly assumed that Me 109G-10 was based on stocks ammased during production of earlier G subvariants. Thus various unused assemblies like fuselages, wings, tails, canopies were put together depending on their availability. This explains so many combinations of parts visible on new built aircraft. Also, some parts must have been modified, those including fuselages. Nonetheless I would hardly call a new built G-6 fuselage converted on assembly line to G-10 status, an old, worn part.
Apart of this discussion, I would like to note that the windscreen in question is a unique piece of history in itself and should not be converted as it will be a falsification. Carefully repaired with as much original bits as possible it would be undistinguishable for most of the viewers.

Re: Official difference between the G-10 and K-4 windscreen??
 

Dear Mike,

you have already been answered above by much more informed and expert people than me on this particular topic. All of them seem to converge on one point: no recycling and no use of old parts was employed in building the G-10. This is what I originally said.

I am sure that Charles, Jörg and others could bring much more detailed info on their statements and help with their huge (and I underline "huge") knowledge of the late Bf 109 series. I only wanted to point out and correct one of those statements that are repeated over and over and that weren't supported so far by any evidence, while proofs of the contrary have been instead found and studied by those researchers above.

Re: Official difference between the G-10 and K-4 windscreen??
 

Hi,

Let me back up a bit a there is a statement I want to withdraw...

I do agree with the statement Franek said below:

"...various unused assemblies like fuselages, wings, tails, canopies were put together depending on their availability. This explains so many combinations of parts visible on new built aircraft. Also, some parts must have been modified, those including fuselages. Nonetheless I would hardly call a new built G-6 fuselage converted on assembly line to G-10 status, an old, worn part."


My response was in regards to the "G-10 being a Brand-New aircraft of Brand New construction."

I took that statement as the G-10 being a NEW DESIGN, and NEWLY BUILT aircraft (as with the F-4, G-2, G-6, K-4), etc.

What I thought you were saying, Ferdinando , is that that the G-10 was an official "new model" aircraft design of new construction ...which, of course it never was.

The G-10 could never have a been was a regular production aircraft of new design, as none of the necessary documentation would exist to support that (such as manuals or handbooks), as they did for all other aircraft.

The mis-communication (which is a result of me typing quickly and not reading my post) is ia m NOT saying that there were a bunch of derelict airframes sitting around needing repair, so they threw together as many parts as possible and pieced them together to make a G-10...

The airframes and parts were already there (and some already constructed), before they went through the upgrade process.

The other issue is that there are many other books saying the opposite...stating they were both new and remanufactured...and also repaired aircraft.

:)

Soo...

Though I understand Franek's comments on converting the windscreen, there is no way to repair the windscreen to airworthy status without replacing the entire aluminum section. The frontal section is a one-piece stamped section of aluminum.

So...either way, the aluminum has to be replaced. By doing so, I have the option of upgrading it. Whatever I replace will not be original anyway, and the only parts I can really re-use are the vent port and the attachment for the windscreen cleaner. Everything else cannot really be kept.

What I really need are pics, drawings or scans of the K style frontage from as many angles as possible...

Can anyone help?

Re: Official difference between the G-10 and K-4 windscreen??
 

I understood that the windscreen is for a static cockpit section. This bit could be restored to static condition, but perhaps for a flyer it would be better to make everything anew?

Re: Official difference between the G-10 and K-4 windscreen??
 

Hi!

No, I need it airworthy. The canopy itself is good as it is steel...but the aluminum would have to be fully replaced to be airworthy.

Tough decision...

;)

Mike

Re: Official difference between the G-10 and K-4 windscreen??
 

I dislike to be the party breaker but there is a G-10 manual, i know for sure since i own a copy.

Regards,
Olivier

Re: Official difference between the G-10 and K-4 windscreen??
 

Mike, I can arrange a flyable copy if you wish, but for God's sake, do not dump original piece!

Re: Official difference between the G-10 and K-4 windscreen??
 

I totally agree with Olivier since I also own a copy.

Re: Official difference between the G-10 and K-4 windscreen??
 

...I rest my case...:rolleyes:

Re: Official difference between the G-10 and K-4 windscreen??
 

I went through ALL the archives at EADS, the Messerchmitt Foundation, and the largest personal collections in the world...and not once have I found an original manual or handbook. There are also NO records at EADS of any such documents every being made for the G-10. It skips from G-6, 12, 14 and then to K-4.

In the 70's there were some fake ones produced, which were copied from the G and K manuals, but never have I found an original.

I would like to see pics of these if possible...

I am not doubting the originality, but after not seeing one in 20 years of collecting, and the fact that both EADS and the Messerschmitt Foundation say they ever made one for the G-10 according to all records...then what is it you have? From what I know, G-10 manuals (handbook parts, manuals or otherwise) were not made due to the huge differences between all the model assemblies.

Please attach pics, as it would be interesting to see what we are talking about here as it would add to my own knowledge...

;)

Re: Official difference between the G-10 and K-4 windscreen??
 

Attachment 1290
I think the difference is not G or K but whehter the aircaft has an MG 151/20 or MK-108. The former has the ammo bin in the left wing while the latter had it directly above the cannon. This reguired access to the top of the MK 108 ammo bin just forward of the windscreen. As seen in the attached foto of the PoF Bf 109G-10, the steel welded cover in front of the windscreen was required to be able to access the top of the ammo bin. Also the MK 108 elect. panel lying horizontal above the ammo bin opening could be rotated 90 degrees toward the windscreen. Both G-10s restored by Evergreen have this same style cover.

Sorry you were unable to get a response from PoF, but the Valle museum crew consists of only a few people how have every little time to answer inquiries.

Hope this answers some of your questions.

Re: Official difference between the G-10 and K-4 windscreen??
 

More on the G-10 handbuch controversy, I may be the origin of the "questionable" copy mentioned. Back in the late 1970s I found a xerox copy of the Bf 109G-10 Teil 0 handbook. At this point the source has been long forgotten, (possibly John Caler?). In 1982 I retyped and reprinted several hundred copies, since the cockpit foto was missing I used a shot of the Chino PoF G-10. I have no reason to believe the xerox copy was phony. The inside cover like other handbücher (see attached) lists all the applicable Tiele. The only other G-10 was Teil 9B H2 Elect. Schematics. Every other Teil refers to earlier Gs or later K-4s.

Re: Official difference between the G-10 and K-4 windscreen??
 

A HA!!!!

So YOU are the culprit!

I would actually like to know if the manuals that John and Olivier have are original or copies. Too much of the German stuff (including uniforms) is TOO well copied that it is almost impossible to know if they are original unless they are in your hands.

There was actually a 262 manual sold on eBay about 3 months ago which was 100% fake, but sold for over $300 off eBay...the seller insisted it was original becasue it had an ink stamp in it. I personally viewed that manual about 6 months previous and after seeing it in person it proved 100% fake...wrong paper, no weathering due to 60 years of storage, wrong staples and construction...even a 50% German/50% Czech KG13A control grip went for almost $2500 last week alone.

I think you're correct in your statement about the screen.

I am definitly leaning in that direction, as the EDSK was also moved to the flat section just behind the Ammo Bin.

Unfortunatly, th 109G parts manual from 1944 shows the set-up for the Mk108 and MG151 with no but no difference to the windscreen frontage.

:)

Re: Official difference between the G-10 and K-4 windscreen??
 

I'm not sure what you mean by 'fake.' Do you mean copies of the original handbooks, or do you mean bogus handbooks that do not contain accurate information about the original subject.

I have several copies and have found them to be simple copies of the originals. This is great since I have not found originals for many handbooks. And, yes, I have a copy of a G-10 manual, but it is a copy and not original.

By the way, in your enthusiasm you neglected to mention the handbooks (3) for the 109 G-8 (although I have yet to see the radio one), and the composite one for the G-AS. I didn't know there was a handbook for the 109 G-12, and have only the MW-50 booklet for the 109 G-14. So, if anyone would be willing to sell me a copy of any handbooks on those 2 aircraft I would be most thankful. As well as those elusive 109 K-4 manuals.

All the best of luck in your quest,
George

PS. And, yes, I also have a couple of copies of the 109 G-10 manuals that von Lutz produced. Excellent workmanship!

Re: Official difference between the G-10 and K-4 windscreen??
 

Hi George!

No I was being generalized when mentioning the manual types. G-1, G-2, G-3, G-3, G-4, G-4 R/3, G-5 G-6, G-6 R2, G-AS etc.. The list is around 50 different types and sub-types.

Oh, when I say "Fake" I mean both repros being sold as originals, and manuals made that never existed. Originals fetch in the $200-$1000+ range, fakes (copies) in the $10-$20 range.


here are some nice originals...not for sale though ;)

http://www.geocities.com/mr-bigg@sbc...t/DSCN0430.JPG


http://www.geocities.com/mr-bigg@sbc...t/DSCN8541.JPG

http://www.geocities.com/mr-bigg@sbc...t/DSCN8593.JPG

http://www.geocities.com/mr-bigg@sbc...t/DSCN8597.JPG

http://www.geocities.com/mr-bigg@sbc...t/DSCN8599.JPG


http://www.geocities.com/mr-bigg@sbc...t/DSCN8613.JPG

http://www.geocities.com/mr-bigg@sbc...t/DSCN8615.JPG

http://www.geocities.com/mr-bigg@sbc...t/DSCN8617.JPG

http://www.geocities.com/mr-bigg@sbc...t/DSCN8619.JPG

http://www.geocities.com/mr-bigg@sbc...t/DSCN8626.JPG

http://www.geocities.com/mr-bigg@sbc...t/DSCN8631.JPG

http://www.geocities.com/mr-bigg@sbc...t/DSCN8633.JPG

http://www.geocities.com/mr-bigg@sbc...t/DSCN8637.JPG

http://www.geocities.com/mr-bigg@sbc...t/DSCN8640.JPG

http://www.geocities.com/mr-bigg@sbc...t/DSCN8839.JPG


http://www.geocities.com/mr-bigg@sbc...t/DSCN8898.JPG


http://www.geocities.com/mr-bigg@sbc...t/DSCN9088.JPG

http://www.geocities.com/mr-bigg@sbc...t/DSCN9089.JPG

http://www.geocities.com/mr-bigg@sbc...t/DSCN9091.JPG

http://www.geocities.com/mr-bigg@sbc...t/DSCN9093.JPG


http://www.geocities.com/mr-bigg@sbc...t/DSCN9094.JPG

http://www.geocities.com/mr-bigg@sbc...t/DSCN9119.JPG

http://www.geocities.com/mr-bigg@sbc...t/DSCN9129.JPG

http://www.geocities.com/mr-bigg@sbc...t/DSCN9133.JPG

http://www.geocities.com/mr-bigg@sbc...t/DSCN9134.JPG


http://www.geocities.com/mr-bigg@sbc...t/DSCN9150.JPG

http://www.geocities.com/mr-bigg@sbc...t/DSCN9152.JPG


http://www.geocities.com/mr-bigg@sbc...t/DSCN9154.JPG

http://www.geocities.com/mr-bigg@sbc...t/DSCN9303.JPG

Re: Official difference between the G-10 and K-4 windscreen??
 

Very nice, Harrison.
George

Re: Official difference between the G-10 and K-4 windscreen??
 

Nice collection Harrison, some of us can only afford copies or reprints. I do have a few originals and a few that are questionable.
Concerning how to tell if G-10 handbuchs are Real or my reprints. Mine are easy to tell, the cockpit foto is of the Chino G-10, the right rudder pedal has the bottom broken off and the Compass is obviously a foto stuck in place. I sold these as reprints for $5 each.

Re: Official difference between the G-10 and K-4 windscreen??
 

I just checked my "copy" of the G-6/U4 Waffenanlage and it shows the same shortened welded steel cover but some of the elect. equip. is in the cockpit and the two small angle pivot strips are not there ( See the earlier G10 foto)

Re: Official difference between the G-10 and K-4 windscreen??
 

Richard! Hope you are well-last saw you at Chino in '86! Thankyou for posting that page of Flugzeug-Handbuch references for the G-10! It is great that you could pass this info on! BTW, almost all the work on Black-Six relied on photo-copies of original manuals, we couldn't afford any real originals! Thanks!! Chris Starr

Re: Official difference between the G-10 and K-4 windscreen??
 

I can tell that there is a cockpit photo which is certainly not the one from Chino inside the G-10 manual from Olivier since he was kind enough to send me a scann from this cockpit some times ago...

Re: Official difference between the G-10 and K-4 windscreen??
 

Could you send me a copy of the cockpit scan, would like to see the "real" one

Re: Official difference between the G-10 and K-4 windscreen??
 

Myself as well...be interested in seeing if it is an original or not....possibly a page from a G-6/U4 manual, or G-14.

Mike

Re: Official difference between the G-10 and K-4 windscreen??
 

Excuse, the only full G-10 cockpit i know is the one from Chino...

Olivier only send me a close view extract from the G-10 manual about the MW50 gauge on left side from the cockpit.

Re: Official difference between the G-10 and K-4 windscreen??
 

Hi O.Menu...

I am a bit confused on your last message...

Basically, according to all records at EADS, and the Messerschmitt foundation, there were NO G-10 Handbooks or parts manuals printed as it was not a standard manufactured aircraft...so what we are trying to determine is if the "copies" that are floating around are actually from an original G-10 manual. I have never found an original G-10 in the last 20 years of looking, and odds are pointing that the G-10 Handbooks that are around were "made" post-war in the 70's from the G-6/U4 or G-14 manuals. So I am speculating whether or not what you have is copied from an original.

Chino's G-10 is one of the most "original" G's left, as most were restored...but there are 4 G-10's left.

If you could send the scan to my email it would be great!

PM me and I will send you my email.

Mike