Help Identify Aircraft Tail Panel
 

Hi, I was hoping to aquire this panel in the near future but first, I'd like to find out from what aircraft it's from. The card in the frame claims it's from a shot down FW190 but I don't think that's true. It doesn't match at all and I've had that confirmed by a chap involved in restoring an FW190 in the USA. Doesn't seem to match a 109 either so I'm a bit lost. Can anyone help?
Cheers
Ben

Re: Help Identify Aircraft Tail Panel
 

yes i can help you contact me offboard pls
junkers@londoner.zzn.com

Re: Help Identify Aircraft Tail Panel
 

Come on then Ben, don't keep us it from us any longer what have you established about this.

Re: Help Identify Aircraft Tail Panel
 

Jon, all I've managed to find out so far is that it's not 190 or 109, probably not 110 and that's it, I'm stuck!

Re: Help Identify Aircraft Tail Panel
 

Hi,

Can you show it in different positions please ?

It may be the wrong way up.

It does say that it was 1942 and found in the Boiler room of a school (?) by the then caretaker (?) who is named.

Alex

Re: Help Identify Aircraft Tail Panel
 

That's right Alex but as a Third Reich collector, I've learn't to buy the item, never the story, unless there is concrete proof.
Here's the piece in all the possible angles..

Re: Help Identify Aircraft Tail Panel
 

Ok, I'll try a different line of questions to see if it can help. Can anyone norrow down the possible date of manufacture based on the design of Swastika? Am I right in saying that tail fin insignia outlined in black was early war production?

Re: Help Identify Aircraft Tail Panel
 

What's the crash/school location named on the card? It looks like "Wildtham"? Where's that?

Identification of tail panels can be a challenge. Some possible pointers that when linked may lead to a/c type determination or elimination:

1) Location and date on card (if correct).

2) Style and size of swastika.

3) Paint colors and patterns.

4) Rivet patterns and back side structure (sometimes removed).

The panel has some very distinctive boundry features as made; e.g., an inside curve and straight edges (note lengths and angles). These details should certainly help if compared to profile line drawings of candidate a/c.

Good luck, and let let us know if you determine the type.

Re: Help Identify Aircraft Tail Panel
 

What a beauty, i have seen many fakes in the past but looking at this albeit from a PC, this looks to be a genuine relic.
Why has it been discounted as being 190 or 109, also give us the school name and location then the rest should be easy.

Re: Help Identify Aircraft Tail Panel
 

Ok, here's what I've been told about the history by the seller which I'm having a hard time to believe, not because he's untrusty, only because this is what he was told by someone else! It's not an FW190 panel as verified by a lot of sources, all knowledgable and independant. One is restoring an FW190 right now and the other is the son of a someone who helps restore 109's around the world.
But Jon, I agree, looks authentic doesn't it which is why I'm bugging you all and probably boring the life out of you as well!

"
This is the history on the Fw190 concerned.....
On the night of the 13/14 June 1943 (12.50 am) W/Cdr.John Cunnigham and Flt.Lt.C.F.Rawnsley (one of the RAF's most successful night fighter
crews)
shot down Fw 190A-5 WNr.840047 CO+LT during a night nuisance raid on London.
The aircraft crashed at Nettleford Farm, Borough Green, Kent. The aircraft disintegrated. The pilot Lt.H.Ullrich baled out seriously injured before the crash to become a PoW.
Cunnigham was CO 85 Sqn based at RAF West Malling - flying De Havilland Mosquito XII night fighters.
Ullrich belonged to the 3./SKG 10 (Schnellkampfgeschwader). This unit was based at St.Andre in France at this time. Gruppe Kommandeur was Hptm.Edmund Kraus."

Re: Help Identify Aircraft Tail Panel
 

Oh and this the werk no, apparently.
840047
On the card.
"Tail Marking from FW190 shot down at Wrotham 1942 found in the boiler room at Wrotham School by Mr J Bird former Caretaker"

Re: Help Identify Aircraft Tail Panel
 

I'm really sorry guys, you must all be fed up with this by now!
Anyway, here's the rear view.

Re: Help Identify Aircraft Tail Panel
 

Hi...

When I first saw this, and read that it was not believed to be a Bf109 or Fw190, and probably not a Bf110 either, I thought that it could perhaps have been an Me210... my reasoning for this was as follows:

1. If the colours showing on the item are a relatively accurate reflection of the colour scheme, then the general 'grey' appearance of the camouflage could perhaps confirm a 1942 timeline, when the RLM 74, 75 & 76 colours were very much in use.
2. Following the teething problems experienced with the Me210 early in its production run and combat introduction, its re-introduction to combat following a halt and then recommencement of production - April and August 1942 respectively - was undertaken by Versuchstaffel 210 based in Holland, at Soesterberg, this unit being made operational as 16.Staffel/KG6 in August of that year, and making its operational debut over Britain in September. It may be useful to enquire about the location of where this item was found/stored, as the first loss of an Me210 over Britain was to Hawker Typhoons over Yorkshire on 6th September, although it does not necessarily follow that where it was stored was anywhere near where it fell.

In addition, reference to Luftwaffe Colours, 1935-1945 by Michael Ullman (Hikoki), pages 151 and 152, could really confuse the issue, as it provides the detailed dimensions of swastika application to front line aircraft, as per Die Flugzeugmaler for 1944 (under the heading 'Markings 1943'). On page 152 there is clear indication that the expectation (although, admittedly, not necessarily the practice that was followed) was for this marking to be outlined in white and black. Consequently, although I agree that the black outlining of the swastika in general was an early-war practice, clearly, as we are all well aware, the appearance and style of Luftwaffe markings did not always conform to regulation, and this should be borne in mind when considering this item.

Lastly, if we are uncertain as to the exact timeline, and bearing in mind the complexities and idiosyncracies of swastika application throughout the war, could we perhaps also consider it to be an Me410... ?

Re: Help Identify Aircraft Tail Panel
 

I am no expert by any means, however has any thought been given to the Bombers? The 410 or 210 do not seem to fit either when looking at the tail lines? I wonder if it could be from a He 177? He111 or somthing of this sort?
Kevin

Re: Help Identify Aircraft Tail Panel
 

Thanks for the heads up on the 210 and 410 but after having a look, I don't think it belongs either.

Re: Help Identify Aircraft Tail Panel
 

Hello Again,

I found this School link and it has history of the School and Caretakers name
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~the.sc...wshistory.html

The School is it seems still in use. So perhaps contact can be made, and perhaps a small peice of the school's history can be returned to it.
There is the post war conection with the Headmaster being ex RAF, and perhaps it was then that this artifact was framed and captioned although with the wrong year.

Alex

Re: Help Identify Aircraft Tail Panel
 

Thanks Alex but I wanted to identify it first, then check out if fits the aircraft in the story. There probably was a crash near the school but is this wreckage anything to do with it? maybe not.