Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

Hi,

On 3 August 1944, Lt Hans Riedel of 7./JG 77 claimed his 7th kill over a Mosquito, probably over Rumania (location unknown but his unit was based here to protect Ploesti oilfields).

I have found no Mosquito loss for this day and will be interested by any report of attack by a British crew that managed to escape.

Another possibility is that the recon aircraft was misidentified and was either an American F-5 or a Soviet Pe-2 ?

Thanks in advance

Re: Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

A F-5 (42-67380) was lost this day (MACR 7350). The MACR listing has it listed with 21st Group. The only group carrying its number at the time was the 21st FG that was in Hawaii with P-38, but I would like to confirm it.

Re: Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

Laurent,

I've looked into this also with no success. The F-5 you're refering to flew with the 14th AF in China with the unit being the 21th PRS Squadron.
Definitively not Han Riedel's Mosquito.

Re: Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

Laurent,

One more thing to consider is that the Mosquito victory is also noted as having ocurred on August 1,1944. (Prien-JG-77 V. 4)
So what we're looking for is a Mosquito loss in the first part of August 1944. The RAF units were the 60 SAAF and 680 Squadrons. I have a lsiting of Mosquito losses that I downloaded off the Internet and tried tof ind a match but could not.

Re: Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

Hi
I had a look in Eagles Victorious and some of my 60 sqn notes and could find no mention of a 60 sqn SAAF Mossie lossfor those dates.
Sorry
Stefaan

Re: Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

Stefaan,

Thanks for the information. There was a 60 SAAF Mosquito loss on August 26th,1944 but nothing at the begining of the month.
I have no idea what Lt. Riedel shot down,maybe a photorecon Pe-2?

Carlos

Re: Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

Thanks to both of you,

I could not find neither a RAF/SAAF/USAAF AC lost there or Allied airman lost this day, and I suspect either that the date is false (Prien seems to have changed a lot his claim dates for this area as more sources became available) or that is was a Soviet aircraft.

Re: Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

I've been looking recently at 60th Sq missions over Romania and indeed there is no mission on the 1st of August 1944, there is one though on the 2nd in the same area where Riedel claimed the victory ( between Bucharest - Ploiesti ) but the pilots reported nothing unusual and returned to base safely.

I've been trying with less success to find something from the VVS side for this date, only chance now remains in the local archives of the romanian police, they usually gave a report for each day with all crashed a/c over the territory.

As Laurent stated above there is also no USAAF loss, i was also taking in count a P-38 maybe..

Re: Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

L.Rizotti regarding your Q

Indeed there was a case researched by me on that day. Two VVS Mosquitos were dispatched on Aug 3rd ahead of Operation Frantic IV of the 52nd and 82nd FG's from Poltawa which was planned for Aug 4,44 to gather recon over Ploesti, Arad and Bucharest. The Mosquitos may have taken off from Mirgorod , Pyriatin , Poltawa,Kharkov or any other VVS base in S.Ukraine. Both Mosquitos managed to take an evasive action when intercepted and one was damaged rather than shot down. The rest is unknown.

PS : Several years ago I discussed this case with my Russian contacts to determine which VVS Sqd operated Mosquitos in S.Ukraine, presumably they were temp.attached to Frantic task force from a Belarus base. SAAF 60 Rcn Sqd was not involved

Re: Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

Hello,
From what I have read over the years and concluded.
The Mosquito aircraft in Russia over the "Poltava" time were RAF and 8th AAF 7th Photo Group a/c. Flown from the UK and Italy.
Alex

Re: Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

I think the VVS only had one Mosquito and certainly not a recon version.

I'm leaning towards a Pe-2.

Re: Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

Kaki I don't know how you came to conclussion
regarding the recon version something I can't answer
though as into lend/lease aircrafts sent to the Russians
they implemented various own designs and new applications
which were not seen elsewhere before. Converting it to
recon wouldn't have been at all an issue for them.

The two mentioned Musquitos were VVS ,no British or
US involvement at all and thanks their powerful engines
they managed to escape the Luftwaffe fighters (I am
searching through my files the VVS & Luftwaffe reports
on this )

On same context and as an example ,on two Frantic
missions the escort of 15th AF and 8th Air Force bombers
to Rumania and back to Italy was provided by YAK-9D
fighters Sqd from Poltawa rather than P-51's and P-38's.

Additionally during several Frantic missions VVS Navigators
were alowed to fly onboard US bomers enroute to Rumania.

Eventually the 5th Recon Group out of Italy could have
easily completed the task, due to a 15th AF logistical
issue ,Russian help was opted.

During the landing of one of the two Musquito's landing
gear has colapssed, that's all is known about .

Re: Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

Because as far as I know, the only Mosquito the VVS had was a Mosquito Mk IV that was ultimately wrecked in a belly landing. The story is in an old "Flypast" magazine that I have in the archives. The Mosquito was a high value resource which was NOT exported in quantity to the USSR. Especially the PR versions. The Russians did have some Spitfire IV airplanes but NOT any Mosquitos.

Re: Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

This is the Mosquito in question kaki : http://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/wiki.php?id=89126

Unless someone can produce serious evidence of VVS Mosquito recon use over Romania I'm sticking with the Pe-2 assumption too.

Re: Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

The event was properly documented by both Luftwaffe pilots and VVS, I exclude the possibility the German pilots would confuse PE-2 with Musquito and indicate on their report their inability to catch up with the Musquitos ultimately aborting the persue . In similar the Russians couldn't confuse their own aircraft. Indeed VVS had very few Musquitos in service, but if this makes out of a Musquito a PE-2 that's an other story.

Re: Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

The identification skills of German pilots should not be over-rated. Or, indeed, those of any airforces, for mistakes were common. This can be due to the fleeting nature of aerial combat, not just to shortcomings in the skills or education of the pilots concerned. It is much easier for us, in the comfort of our armchairs with encyclopaedic coverage of the types concerned, than it ever was for the pilots at the time. Despite the twin tails vs single tail, the two types do have a very similar appearance.

As to Russian sources: the problem here is that there is no known record of any other Mosquitos being supplied to the Russians, and as far as I know this is documented from both the UK and Russian sides. Hard evidence of additional deliveries would be very interesting to many people.

Re: Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

Hi there all,

I have this one listed as being one of Prien's Geschwader history claims that were marked with an asterisk as having been 'maybe shot down on a different date', location Mizil airfield...

What is the possibility of it being listed in error...?

Nick

Re: Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

Hi,

Prien, Jagdgeschwader 77, p.2437, notes that Riedel's claim was ~03.08.1944. On page 2113-2114 there is a lengthy first-hand account about the combat from Johann Twietmeyer, from a letter sent to Prien on 4 February 1990. Prien notes: "Datum des Einsatzes ungewiss, möglicherweise 3.8.1944".

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com

Re: Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

Hello,
To clear the deck on the F-5/P-38 for the 3rd August 1944. I have only the following to offer.
440803 42-67380 F-5B 7350 CHINA Allen, Arthur H. Jr.
440803 41-7518 P-38F CALIFORNIA Snyder, Charles C.
440803 42-13199 P-38G ITALY Fernow, Melvin L.
440803 43-2422 P-38G ITALY Orders, Kermit R.
440803 43-28770 P-38J ITALY Middleton, Ernest F. Jr.
440803 43-28787 P-38J ITALY Johnson, William E.
440803 44-23405 P-38J CALIFORNIA Higgins, Harry C.
440803 44-23464 P-38J CALIFORNIA Kohlman, Warren C. Jr.
440803 44-23671 P-38J-25 7873 FRANCE Chamberlain, Dennis R. KIA.
440803 44-23674 P-38J FRANCE (Ground Crew).
440803 44-23807 P-38L CALIFORNIA Edesberg, Edward B.
440803 44-23592 P-38J 370FG MIA.
I would be glad if anyone could add to the above list for this date.

As for the Mosquito, I can only offer the following for the 3rd August 1944.
RAF
440803 - Mosquito II - DD749 - 239 Sqn -UK.
440803/04 - Mosquito - 219 Sqn - Friendly fire.
440803/04 - Mosquito NF XIII - 264 Sqn - Damaged by Ju88 and Shot down by Friendly "AA".

And from "The Mighty Eighth War Diary", page 313.
3 August 1944
802RG despatched 3 Mosquitos to scout for Bombers, 2 Mosquitos on WR France and Atlantic.

On this date the 8th AAF Fighter losses were:
P-47D 42-74627 36FG MIA.
P-47D 42-25869 Landing accident.France.Freddie (NMI) Hobrecht
P-47D 42-8647 Landing accident France.Algred (NMI) Pavilonis
P-47D 42-25969 56FG 1Lt. Roach S. Stewart jr KIA MACR 7448.
P-51's were;
44-13934 4Fg Maj. Fonzo D. Smith POW MACR 7453
43-6885 "Texas Terror III" 355FG 2Lt. Gilbert L. Patterson KIA MACR 7426
44-14001 "Hat Jane" 355FG Capt. Robert G. Kurtz POW MACR 7428
43-24824 "Sophia S" 355FG 1Lt. Garlyn G. Hoffman POW MACR 7429
44-13912 355FG 1Lt. Floyd K. Taylor EVD MACR 7612
44-13654 355FG 1Lt John A. Cotter POW MACR 7728
9th AAF losses were:
P-47D 42-75522 406FG 2Lt. Leo C. Pawlukanis KIA MACR 7665.

Alex

Re: Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

Andrew and Nick

Yes and thank you, this is the report I've mentioned. Accordingly, they ID'ed at aprox
24'000 ft. and below them both RECON Musquitos.They also concluded seeing later on
the crew chute's canopy opening and inability to cope with the other Musquito's speed.

On that day no losses were recorded over Rumania,other than that VVS reported
both aircraft returning safely to their base. A day before 82 GvBAP recorded the loss
of a PE-2 somewhere in Romania as result of AA or A2A activity though at low altitude
and entire crew was KIA. Lt.Riedel was no beginner to all this ,confusing a twin rudder
PE-2 and its performance with a Musquito , that won't fit the picture .

The date was definitely Aug 3,44

An interesting coincidence , Lt.Riddle of 52 FG was shot down on July 31,44 while
escorting bombers(possibly also by JG77) near Bucharest the other Lt.Riedel of JG77
was involved on our Musquito case and of a P-51 on next day during Ops Frantic possibly
out of 4 lost by 52nd FG on Aug 4h.

PS : from June 2 to 19 Sept 1944, 117 photo recon mission were flown from or to
Soviet bases supporting Frantic Joe and Frantic missions. The missions included
33 from Italy, 29 to Italy , 6 from UK and 49 to and from USSR bases.

Re: Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

Do you by chance have the date of these RAF Musquitos at Poltawa ? On the various books on Ops Frantic Joe and Frantic I posses, nothing is mentioned
about presence of RAF Musquitos at Poltawa nor I ever saw such photo.
================================================== ==========

Re: Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

Hello researcher 111,
I note with interest your break down of the 117 photo recce ops in support of Frantic Joe and other frantic missions.
Any chance that you could go a step further (by PM) and break down to the number of missions by aircraft type and force for me please ?
Alex

Re: Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

Hello,
Here are the KU details for the 3rd August 1944.

Alex

Re: Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

Hello,
Just to update:
1st FG had 2 P-38 "losses" on the 3rd both within Italy at Sal Sola.
and
This may not be a help but Lt.James Small had a landing accident at "Station 559"(Poltava) on the 4th August 1944 in P-38J-10-LO 42-68162 of the 95th FS,82nd FG.
Aircraft was a write off.
Also on the 4th.
The 82nd also lost the following:
P-38J-15-Lo 43-28757 - Alfred H. Ellison - POW.
P-38 - James C. Hardin - KIA - S/D near village of Dalwati(spelling?), Rumania.
P-38 - 42-104145 - William P. Litton - POW - Location given as Focsani (South) A/D, Rumania.
P-38 - 43-28811 - Thomas W. Vaughan - POW - Location 5 mi NE of Focsani A/D.
P-38 - Richard E. Willsie, rescued by Richard T. Andrews after he force landed out of fuel.
( further can be seen at: http://raf-112-squadron.org/usaaf_ho...21943_mto.html

Alex

Re: Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

Unfortunately, I don't have recon details breakdown , none of the books
available provide complete details. Poltawa remains a dark chapter on
the 15th AF history and this of VVS, both sides claimed to be Allies
in reality however they acted otherwise which was a partial factor leading
to the task force disaster on June 21, 44 at midnight.

As into my question , it remains still open namely the dates u've
mentioned reg. RAF Recon Musquitos present at Poltawa
which is not mentioned on any of my books and would
be of specific interest to me.

PS: From Russian sources I was confirmed again that both
recon planes were DH Musquitos which may have taken off
from Kharkov or Skadovsk on purpose to perform high alt.
recon over Romanian targets which as described by JG77
were intercepted somewhere around Zilistea's perimeters

Re: Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

Hello,
Again I do not know if this will help.
540 Sqdn had a detachment in the USSR mainly I think for recce on the Turpitz later on.
Other Mosquito Squadrons had the ability I beleive to overfly Rumania includind 60 SAAF and other RAF/USAAF Sqdns from Italy and the Balkans.

I checked AB serial number books and nothing seems to fit, although there have been typo errors in the past that have come to light. I Checked "W", "DA-DZ", "LA-LZ","MA-MZ" - I may be wrong, but from NA onward production would be too late.

As an after thought maybe it was misidentification after all, and so if you exclude the Soviet types and look at RAF types there were the following ( I may have missed some?) twin engined a/c in the middle east/Italy region.
Albermarle; Baltimore; Hampden; Hudson ; Warwick; Welllington; Blenheim; Beaufighter; Mitchell; Marauder; Catalina (with floats retracted), [ Some were also bases in the USSR, Russians also produced copies too and one even defected].

Alex

Re: Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

Hi,

Thanks for your feedback but the subject you mentioned is out of my research
area nor of interest to me and is off topic.

As into your other comments , SAAF 60th Sqd performed at least 3 times
high alt.recon over Rumania post Ops Tidalwave on Aug 3,43 and again during
Sept ,Oct 1943 and possibly last on Dec 1943 . From 1944 on. recon over Rumania
was performed by 5th PRG , several times by 376th BG at night ( Radar Mapping )
by each individual BG of the 15th AF and 205th GP during and post actual bombing run.

To my knowledge no RAF acfts except VIP transports were ever involved on Ops
Frantic Joe and Frantic and no RAF Musquitos were ever dispatched to Poltawa.

The Soviets AF & Navy performed substantially more recon missions over Rumania
though due to lack of suitable equipment only at low and medium altitude with
DB-3 & 3F, SB. TU-2 PE-2 and A-20's . Their only high alt.recon mission was done
on Aug 3,1944 returning with recon photos taken at Bucharest, Focsani, Arad , Mizil and
Zilistea airfields, info used next day by 82nd and 52nd FG straffing task force on Romanian
airfields dispatched out of Poltawa .

Re: Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

60th Squadron SAAF performed at least 55 recon missions over Romania between April - August 1944 all of which are documented.

Re: Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

Are there supporting documents or publications backing up the cited claim of 55 recon missions of SAAF 60 Sqd over Rumania ?

Re: Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

Hi,

The Operations Record Book for No. 60 Squadron SAAF is available for free online. See here: http://discovery.nationalarchives.go...s?Uri=C2707702

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.airwarpublications.com

Re: Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

Andrew

Thanks for the link and I am downloading the stuff.

Still ,I would be very suprised if indeed 60th Sqd performed 55 recons missions over
Rumania in 1944 coze I counted some 43 actuals out of which several returns due WX
The book " Eagles Victorious " has little to say about 60th Sqd. Most of the job was done
by 5th PRG & the concerned BG's at med and high alt. Out of hundred of 15th AF and 205th GP
Romanian recon photos dated 1944 which stored on my data base not even one is marked
60 recon Sqd.

Is there a data base containing 60 Sqd recon photos from Rumania period 1944 ?

Back to initial topic , on Aug 2,1944 they performed recon over Rumania.

Re: Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

Check out the following:

http://aerial.rcahms.gov.uk/worldwide/Romania.php

They are expensive.

Re: Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

Great stuff Andy, thank you. Unfortunately the aerial
shots are limited to April 17,44 and some taken early June
1944. No photos of the Rumanian airfields, Ploesti Oil
Fields or various bomb fall plots assessments included.
Nevertheless useful stuff.

Many thanks

Re: Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

Hello,
These days it looks easy to ID a Mosquito but in the war things may have been a little different.
Could it be that this aircraft is the one ?
3-8-1944
H.P.Halifax II, serial number JP283 of 1586 Flight, took off from Brindisi on a Special Duties Operation to Poland. Shot Down near Szantes, some 150km SE of Budapest by a German fighter. 5 of her 7 man Polish crew became POW's.
OR
These P-38's but date is 4th August '44.

440804 - ??-????? - P-38 - 15909 - RUMANIA - Hardin, James C.
440804 - 42-68162 - P-38J - RUSSIA - Small, James (NMI).
440804 - 42-104145 - P-38J-15 - 7318 - RUMANIA - Litton, William P.
440804 - 42-104161 - P-38J-15 - 7342 - CERFAN - O'Brien, William S.
440804 - 42-104186 - P-38J-15 - 7792 - FRANCE - Pyron, Walter S.
440804 - 43-28410 - P-38J - ITALY - Plummer, George H.
440804 - 43-28459 - P-38J -UNITED KINGDOM - Hartman, Elmer (NMI).
440804 - 43-28757 - P-38J-15 - 7187 - RUMANIA - Ellison, Alfred H.
440804 - 43-28811 - P-38J-15 - 7298 - RUMANIA - Vaughn, Thomas W.
440804 - 44-23614 - P-38J - FRANCE - Northrop, John R.
440804 - 44-23686 - P-38J-25 -10663 - UNITED KINGDOM - Freeman, Ted M.
MACR 15909 next post.

Alex

Re: Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

Hello,
Hardin's MACR.15909

Attachment 9330

Attachment 9331

Attachment 9332

Attachment 9333

Alex

Re: Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

Hello,
An Update,
4th August '44
P-38 - Richard E. Willsie, rescued by Richard T. Andrews after he force landed out of fuel.
Willsie's aircraft was 42-104174 named "Snake Eyes".

Also,
540 Sqdn and as already said, 60 (SAAF) Sqdn do not look to have had any losses that fit the date, any losses are a few days out. Also 540's detachment ( an Island aprox 20m from Archangel) details are not noted in the ORB as far as I can find . Also the American Squadrons Mosquito losses do not look any better.

So were more than the known "single" Mosquito sent to the Russians after all ?

Alex

Re: Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

Hi Alex,

Here is a very rough translation of the first-hand account in Prien:

"When our Rotte had approached almost within firing range, we were spotted by the enemy machine and he tried to escape us with emergency power - both engines emitted thin but visible exhaust streaks behind them. We then had no chance to catch up to it, and so Lt. Riedel from a very great distance - probably around 800 metres - fired off a long burst, more in frustration than in hope of hitting something. But immediately afterwards an engine began emitting smoke, becoming stronger and stronger, and as Hans Riedel roared over the radio: 'I got him, I got him!', the crew jumped out in front of us and took to their chutes." [Prien, Jagdgeschwader 77, p.2114]

Given the speed of the aircraft, I don't think it was a Halifax. The reference to "crew" rather than "pilot" would also eliminate a P-38 as a possibility (assuming, of course, that the first-hand account is accurate!).

Cheers,
Andrew A.
Air War Publications - www.facebook.com/airwarpublications

Re: Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

Andrew

The original volume IV of JG 77 in German language does not account part of the above
statement you cited such as Halifax, they clearly mentioned a Musquito no reference
to other aircraft type was made . On my previous posts I stated that 5 PRG
and 60th Rcn Sqd both out of San Severo were not available on Aug 3, 44 for that mission.

Also there is no point to speculate, it was a VVS Musquito dispatched from a
Russian base ahead of Ops Frantic IV.

Re: Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

The link I sent you only showed what has been scanned and made publically available. The archive will contain all photos taken by 60 Sqn SAAF (provided the films survived). However if you want to order an image that is not displayed you need to be very specific. Date, unit, sortie reference, frame number. And unfortunately rich. The prices are very expensive and in my opinion prohibative.

Best Regards

Andy Fletcher

Re: Mosquito claim over Rumania on 3 August 1944
 

Andy

Thanks again, I am limited on the mentioned resources in order to order
a specific shot