Luftwaffe Gunner Reports
 

I am trying to track down Luftwaffe Airgunner claims for July 21st.
Looks to have been a formation or single DO17 near the Convoy Pewit.

238 Squadron possibly lost one Hurricane to a gunner on this date.
Did the Luftwaffe gunners place claims? if yes, have the records survived?

Re: Luftwaffe Gunner Reports
 

The only claims that day were by III/JG 27. The convoy was attacked by I/StG 77 with 21 Ju 87s 30 km south of Bournemouth and at about 2030 hrs, 21 Ju 88s from I/KG 54 tried to do the same but only one attacked. There were all sorts of aircraft in and around the Channel that day but none reported combats with Hurricanes or shooting one down.

Gunners would be credited with kills which would be credited to their Staffel the same as fighter claims. However, as to such records surviving, they are hard to find. The Situation Report issued by the Luftwaffe Fuhrungsstab would make mention of fighter and bomber claims; again, nothing for 21 Jul 40

Re: Luftwaffe Gunner Reports
 

Hi Chris,

At a risk of being very boring, i am again trying to put some meat to the bone about Sgt Banns letter stating a long swim home after getting shot into the channel during what can only be July 1940
I have been informed that it could have been on the 21st July, 238 claimed a D017 down on this date and i understand it is confirmed. I have no 0RB for the 21st July and really need someone who has access to check this out for me. The Battle of Britain Then and Now also mentions a 238 Hurricane damaged by return fire on the 21st July, so with the confirmed kill and this damaged fighter it looks like they did indeed close with enemy bombers. This along with his letter saying happy birthday to his mother for early August and the fact he says he was missing for several days dates the incident on or around July 21st.
As for no Luftwaffe claims, it is quite possible he was hit and crashed later without the gunner being aware his shooting was better than he had thought?

Did 238 Squadron have a pilot shot down by Gunners on this date

Re: Luftwaffe Gunner Reports
 

There were 2 kills by Red Section 238 Sqn that day. Red Section (Turner, Davis & Wigglesworth) got a Bf 110 of 4/14 at 1020 hrs. At 1445 hrs, Red (same ) and Yellow Sections (latter being Fenton, Batt plus one) got a Do 17 of 4/14. There is no mention in Batt's combat report of a Hurricane being lost whilst Lt Georg Thiel makes no mention of shooting down a Hurricane. See my book 'The Luftwaffe Bombers' Battle of Britain' as I contacted both German officers taken POW that day

Re: Luftwaffe Gunner Reports
 

Hi Jon

Apologies! I haven't been able to get to the PRO to check this again, but will do so shortly. From what Chris has written, I could be that Eric Bann was the third (unnamed) member of Fenton's section?

Cheers
Brian

Re: Luftwaffe Gunner Reports
 

Bann flew with Yellow Section so very probably was involved in the second D017 claim, interestingly his letter states that he flew with the CO and another (Batt?) on the day he was shot down, and was pleased on his return from bailing out three days later to hear that the other two "got a German"
Interesting that Sgt Batt did not mention a Hurricane being lost, is it not possible the report was filed straight away on return before he was aware of Sgt Bann being lost and not simply landing at another airfield? On reading Squadron ORB's I have seen on several occasions where pilots have got lost or seperated for them to return home alone, maybe Banns non arrival was nothing out of the ordinary in that summer of 1940.
Sgt Bann himself on 25 July landed back early having lost his section in cloud.
The 21st July still looks the more likley, certainly no later than this date, do any other dates fit?

Re: Luftwaffe Gunner Reports
 

Jon/Brian: Suggest also you look at the Combat Reports for these pilots. Strangely, I have just 2 names for Yellow Section (Fenton & Batt)-it is still possible that the 3rd member did not get airborne or could be Bann...

Another check of Luftwaffe records and I can see just the one Do 17 operating that day-the 4/14 ac TO 1440 hrs (1340 hrs UK time) for a recce of the Channel and airfields along the Bournemouth-Bristol-Oxford-Portsmouth route. The 238 Sqn states that Davis in P3767 was damaged by Uffz Alfred Werner, the Do 17's gunner, but got back safely. No mention of another RAF loss. The Stukas did usually use a Do 17 in the Stab-no mention for this day as well

Re: Luftwaffe Gunner Reports
 

Hi Brian,

No problem, if you could look at the records for me i would appreciate it, I am going a bit mad now trying to solve the riddle. Maybe you can look at all of July see if it shows then.
Infact Brian if you want to contact me off board, i will gladly pay all costs for you to copy everything you can for 238 during the Battle of Britain.

Cheers

Jon

Re: Luftwaffe Gunner Reports
 

Hi Chris,

Just a thought !

If the DO17 that was attacked by Bann and in turn shot him down was a reconnaissance aircraft i assume it would have been operating alone and, if then was itself shot down, no records of any gunner claims would exist in Luftwaffe records.

Re: Luftwaffe Gunner Reports
 

It was operating alone and I contacted the Observer who made no mention of his crew shooting down a Hurricane

Re: Luftwaffe Gunner Reports
 

I presume you have looked at Hurricane serials/losses for 238 Sqn. I am no expert of such things but the following came off 238's charge on the following dates:

N2329-25 Jul 40
P2946-19 Jul 40
P2948-18 Jul 40
P2950-13 Jul 40
P3208-25 Jul 40
P3700-3 Jul 40
P3702-26 Jul 40
P3703-6 Jul 40
P3766-20 Jul 40
P3767-15 Jul 40

Re: Luftwaffe Gunner Reports
 

Thanks Chris,

I will put a name against all of these.

Regards

Jon

Re: Luftwaffe Gunner Reports
 

Thanks Chris,
I now have another route to take, just looked at the Battle of Britain Then and Now, crossed it with my few 238 0RB copies i have and am left with six aircraft to trace.
NEW POSTING IN ALLIED FORUM.

Cheers Chris.

Re: Luftwaffe Gunner Reports
 

Hi guys, having just seen this thread, I went to check my uncle's (S/L Fenton's) papers and log book re 21 July and found a copy of what appears to be details from the squadron ORB. It states 5 sorties comprising "A" Flight patrolled Warmwell at 20,000ft. A Do 17 was intercepted over Blandford and shot down. P/O Davis' A/C was damaged but landed safely.

The 5 sorties detailed in the ORB comprised F/L Turner, P/O Davis, P/O Wigglesworth, S/L Fenton and Sgt. Batt.

If Fenton is the CO referred to by Sgt. Bann in his letter, my uncle's log book shows he himself flew on only three dates within your parameters after taking over the squadron on 15 July. These being 17/7, 18/7, 21/7 with the Do 17 on the 21st being his first claim (shared 1/5th). He had no other claims in July.

Hope this helps.

Re: Luftwaffe Gunner Reports
 

Hello Nick,
Excellent thanks for the information, can you tell me what your Uncle has down for the 18th July, this is the other date i feel Sgt Bann could have been shot down flying P2948, the 21st is now looking like Sgt Bann was not even in the air on this date.
Interestingly Banns letter says he was missing for three days, then on return got leave for two days...if he went missing on the 18th his return to combat would have been on the 24th, I have an ORB with him flying on the 25th so this date does fit.

Thanks
Jon

Re: Luftwaffe Gunner Reports
 

I assume I asked you before, but does the log book by any chance show anything different rather than serial?

Re: Luftwaffe Gunner Reports
 

Hi Franek... re your post. Not quite sure what information are you looking for from the log book... Can you clarify?

Re: Luftwaffe Gunner Reports
 

Nick
I am always looking for serial/code tie ups. Usually ORBs or log books provided serials or only four digits of serial. Sometimes airmen were so kind to put individual code letters, mix of code letter and digits from serial or even full markings. You never know where your luck is, and that is why I am so eagerly looking for log books. Another matter are comments included there, sometimes rather extensive.