Henschel HS-123
 

Greetings:

Just was doing a google search and found this link which unfortunately is in Chinese:
http://cwlam2000hk.sinaman.com/caf33.htm

What it shows is a web page detailing the use of Henschel HS-123's by the CAF, approx. 1938, can anyone shed some light on the use of the Henschel, I know it was used in Spain but did not know about China, Thanks.

Cheers,

Bob Kalinak

Re: Henschel HS-123
 

Hi Bob,

From the Wydawnictwo Militaria #4 publication on the Hs 123:

Drugim zagranicznym uzytkownikiem samolotów Henschel Hs 123 byly Chiny (Kuomintang), które na poczatku 1937 roku zakupily 9 (12?) samolotów typu Hs 123A-1. Samoloty Przeznaczone dla Chin nosily numery ewidencyjne 1501-1509. Hs 123 zostaly wlaczone do 15.
eskadry lotnictwa chinskiego. Eskadra dzialala w dorzeczu rzeki Jangcy. Atakowala japonski transport morski, przeprawy, drogi. Samoloty Hs 123 zostaly prawdopodobnie szybko zniszczone w walce lub zbombardowane na lotniskach, gdyz wykaz sprzetu lotnietwa chinskiego z 25 maja 1940 roku nie wykazuje juz na stanie samolotów tego typu.

Translated for me on the AWF Forum by a Polish-speaker as:
Second foreign user of Hs 123 was China (Kuomintang) which bought 9 (12?) planes in early 1937. Planes for China had record numbers 1501-1509. Planes were used by 15th Squadron of Chinese aviation.
Squadron was acting over Jangcy (Yangtze) river basin and was used for attacks on Japanese maritime transport, military passages and roads. Chinese Hs 123s were probably quickly destroyed in combat or during Japanese bombing because there is no planes mentioned on record from May 25th, 1940.

HTH,
...geoff

Re: Henschel HS-123
 

The Chinese bought bits and bobs of aircraft from all over the world, often enough civilian transports that the manufacturer promised could be used as bombers. I remember reading in the Foreign Relations of the United States about the State Department's efforts to block the shipment of twenty-odd Bellancas in 1938 or 1939--probably did a favor to the Chinese!

There were a few Heinkels in CAF service at the outbreak of war in August 1937, but the most successful imports were those assembled locally, including Italian planes (not many left by August 1937) and American, notably Curtiss Hawk II and III biplanes.

Blue skies! -- Dan Ford

Coming August 21: Flying Tigers: Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942

Re: Henschel HS-123
 

hi, what is the difference between this book and the previous " Flying Tigers: Claire Chennault and the American Volunteer Group " ?

Re: Henschel HS-123
 

I tried to have the text from the Chinese web site translated. According to the author China bought 12 Hs123 and the planes were delivered crated in 1938. They were assembled in Nanking (Nanjing).The value of contract was 2,018,000.- RM.
In the first paragraph it is mentioned that China bought 12 He50 in 1935. Delivery was delayed by 6 months due to the demand from German air force.

K

Re: Henschel HS-123
 

Chinese imported 12 Hs-123A0 and 6 He-111A0 from Germany before the war, as far as I know those were only German war planes used by Chinese in the war, after the war broke out between China and Japan, German, as a major ally of Japan, soon stopped their military supply to China, because of losses in action and the shortage of the spare parts,those German aircrafts only saw limit actions in the Chinese airforce, after new aircrafts from Soviet arrived in China after 1938, those survived German war planes were transfered to reserve

Re: Henschel HS-123
 

1. Flying Tigers -- The new version is tightened up to be more readable but also includes new material from sources published since the first version was released and also the results of additional unpublished research (some contributed by yours truly). It has a paperback cover and an addordable price of $15.95.

2. Germany as supplier to China. It is not correct that Germany stopped supplying arms to China when war with Japan broke out. Germany supplied few aircraft (it was after all building up its own air force) but it was the No. 1 supplier of arms and military equipment to China in 1937 and 1938 and remained a major supplier until 1939.

According to records of the U.S. State Dept. the Hs 123's arrived in China between Jan and April 1938.

Rick

Re: Henschel HS-123
 

rldunn, in later 30, Chinese Central government did receive large amount of German military aid, this was part of chinese military reform, however this process was interrupped by the war, but those military aid was vastly for army, from the airforce perspective, before the war chinese adoptted a rather stupid policy to buy aircrafts from all over the world, in the eve of the war, CAF had on hand those different types of fighter alone : Fakker DXIII/DXVII, Fakker DXVI,Fokker/V.C.D/C.V.E,Dewoitine D-27,Boeing 218,Curtiss Hawk II,Fiat CR20,Fiat CR32,Breda Ba.27 and later Glastes "Gladiator"MKI,Curtise Wright CW-21 and MS 406, what a nightmare ! As I said Germany only provided chinese 18 war planes, so that German aids only played little part to Chinese airforce.
After the war between China and Japan broke out on July 7 1937, German of course did not immediately stopped their military aid to China, Chinese received those 12 Hs-123A1 in the Sprint of 1938, but those aid did decrease to a point make no further difference in 1938 and then stopped in 1939. Started with 1938, large amount of Soviet military aid arrived in China, which vastly excceed those come from Germany, and chinese also received some limited material from British later, but from 1938, Germany was NO LONGER major supplier after 1938, it was Soviet played this part until 1941, after 1942, that Americans became the major military supplier for China

Re: Henschel HS-123
 

Two points seem mistaken in the above discussion (1) Germany did not play an important role in supporting the CAF and (2) Germany was not a major supplier of arms to China after 1938.

1. While Germany supplied few complete aircraft, it did supply numerous aircraft accessories, parts and equipment. As previously stated Germany was China's primary arms supplier in 1937-1938 and this included significant quantities of aviation supplies including aircraft tires, armament, and accessories as noted in the preceding sentence.

2. Germany's role in military supplies may have declined in 1939 but it was not small. Example: In two weeks in Feb/Mar 1939 the following arrived in China via Hong Kong from Germany --

a, 88, 578, 500 rounds of m/g & rifle ammo
b. 1, 538, 600 rds pistol ammo
c. 32,000 tank shells
d. 502 machine guns
e. 3,867 pistols and revolvers
f. 82.3 tons of dynamite
g. 3.8 tons of detonators
h. 0.6 tons of percussion caps
g. 358 cases of fuses (some through Haiphong and Rangoon)

During another two week period Sept/Oct 1939 the value of military goods arriving at Rangoon for China was 44, 954 rupees from Germany as compared to 6.970 rupees from the U.S.

Rick

Re: Henschel HS-123
 

rldunn, I am a Chinese, and I study chinese history, and I knew the statement "it did supply numerous aircraft accessories, parts and equipment" is wrong, come on ! because lack of part, only 3 of 6 He-111A0 could be committed into combat in 1937, the other 3 had to be stripped for parts ! and compared to the military aid chinese received from Soviet, Germany was NO LONGER the major military supplier after 1938, if you like, I could give you a list what Chinese received from Russia after 1938.
By the way, USA was not a major military supplier for China in 1939, their role would became overwhelming important after 1942, so why compare them to Germans in 1939 ? though it was very interesting to know that Chinese still received German weapons from Burma, a British Colony,in Sep/Oct 1939, after WWII broke out in Europe, what is your source ?

Re: Henschel HS-123
 

Come on indeed. The data support my previous posts. If the 'right' parts did not get to China that's too bad but the export data clearly shows Germany exported much aviation material to China. China often hoarded supplies rather than using them due to internal rivalries. I don't know if that is the case with the He 111's. They were basically poor early versions of that a/c palmed off on the CAF by the Germans. Please don't use such generalizations when factual data exists that is contrary. You may not know the facts but that is no reason to deny them.

You may wish to research details on exports from Germany to China before making sweeping assertions. I've given you the hints if you are open-minded enough to accept them.

I note you didn't challenge the assertion that Germany remained a major arms supplier in 1939 once I provided some data to that effect. Rest assured similar data exists with regard to aviation supplies. Believe what you will (or do the research yourself!).

Rick

Re: Henschel HS-123
 

rldunn, "open mind" is a two-way street, I would not claim I am an expert of the CAF in WWII, but I indeed "know" something about aircrafts used by CAF in the war, so :
1. I assume "China often hoarded supplies rather than using them due to internal rivalries." was one of your little joke, if it was not, well, I have nothing to say besides suggest you to read some related book written in Chinese.
2.and again, no, neither aicrafts nor any kindo fo aviation material from Germany played any important part in the Sino-Japanese war, even those Hs-123s were soon forced to withdraw from front line because of lack of parts !
3, I may disappointed you here but if you read my previous post, you would see I stated clearly that "Germany was no longer, repeat NO LONGER,a mjor arm supplier to china after 1938, so I DID STILL challenge your assertion, sorry, even after you provided your data.

By the way, I was still interested the fact that Germany still could transport arm to china via Burma after WWII broke out in Europe, this, I really want to know your source.

Re: Henschel HS-123
 

By the way, if you could read chinese, here are two excellent books:
抗日战争时期中国空军的飞机 (Aircrafts used by CAF in the Sino-Japanes War) by 陈应明
浴血长空-中国空军抗日战史(Blood in Sky: Combat history of CAF in the Sino-Japanese War)

Re: Henschel HS-123
 

I could give you a list what Chinese received from Russia after 1938

I for one would be interested in that information (in broad terms)!

Note that materiel arriving at Rangoon in Sep/Oct 1939 would have been shipped before Britain and Germany were at war. It's an interesting question as to what the British customs officers at the Rangoon docks would have made of it (wouldn't they have impounded the freighter, or was it neutral?)! And just because it arrived is no evidence that it was forwarded up the "road" to Kunming. Was the Burma Road even open in the early fall of 1939?

But really, the British has a motive to let it travel onward--it cost them nothing, put China in their debt, and benefited Germany not at all.

Blue skies! -- Dan Ford

Coming August 21: Flying Tigers: Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942

Re: Henschel HS-123
 

Twenty years' worth of additional research!

The 1991 Smithsonian Inst Press edition had some minor corrections in its 2nd printing, and more extensive one in the 7th printing in 2001. But I was very limited as to how many changes I could make (the lines always had to come out the same).

SIP went out of business in 2005, and the last copies of that version were soon sold. So HarperCollins, which acquired the Smithsonian list and name, agreed to publish a revised edition. I spent last year rewriting the book. It's a bit shorter, and much of the "back matter" has been moved onto my website (see the link in my sig file). As a result, HarperCollins achieved the remarkable feat of lowering the price by six dollars over 2001.

It's astonishing how much new information can emerge about happenings of sixty-odd years ago. Rick Dunn of this message board is only one of the resources I didn't have when I began to study the AVG in the 1980s. (Ask him! He's seen the book, and I haven't.)

Blue skies! -- Dan Ford

Coming August 21: Flying Tigers: Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942

Re: Henschel HS-123
 

sure, oldpilot, according to Chinese source, Germany stopped her military supply to China in May 1938, there were some secrect delivery after that, but not in any large scale, Germans certainly did not want to upset Japanese because of Chinese ! Because of combat losses,lack of spare parts for aicraft, and the difficulty of maintianance for ridicously so many different type of aircrafts. CAF almost ran out of combat aicrafts at the end of 1937, now the traditional source of Weapon, Germany and Italy, were stopping their aid, America had not transfered her industry to war time system, British and French had their hands full at Europe, the only help had to come from Soviet, that was a rather bizare relationship, because Soviet supported Chinese Communist in the civil war, the relationship between Russian and Chinese Central goverment was not good, but at that time, Soviet faced Nazi Germany at west, and Japanese at East, they faced a real possibility to fight a two-front war,Russian obviously considered that a Japanes fought in China was a Japanese could not give them trouble to them, so that the help they gave to Chinese at that time was very generous, a 250 million US dollars loan (some other source said 500 Million US dollars loan) in low interest, talking about aircrafts, between end of 1937 to October 1941, Soviet supplied Chinese 900+ aircrafts with large amount of engine, parts,bomber and all kind of areo-ammunition, the first patch of Soviet war planed arrived in China and fought at battle of NanJing in Dec 1937. For further detail, I need go home and check my book

Re: Henschel HS-123
 

Dan has pretty much answered the shipping question. The passage from Europe to Rangoon was in excess of 50 days. A ship arriving from Europe at the end of Sept 39 would have set sail in Aug 39 or earlier. The british would have had no reason to interfere with goods bound for China coming into Rangoon on a ship of a neutral country no matter what their origin. The Burma Road was open but it was so inefficiently run that there was a backlog of many months of supplies on the Rangoon docks awaiting shipment up the road to China.

The source of data in my earlier post is customs data for the Port of Rangoon.

With regard to hoarding there are many examples. One brief reference can be found in the comments of Vultee representative Warder in part 4 of this article.

http://www.wardirdforum.com/dunnp661.htm

RLD

Re: Henschel HS-123
 

Try

http://warbirdforum.com/dunnp661.htm

sorry, got b and d mixed up

Re: Henschel HS-123
 

Re: Henschel HS-123
 

Hs-123 were operated by the 15th Sq of the ROCAF, mainly in the divebombing role against Japanese shipping on the Yangtze River in 1938. Chinese pilots and ground crew complained that the aircraft showed signs of having been previously used.

First combat involving Soviet Volunteer pilots in the 1st Volunteer Pursuit Group occurred on Nov. 22, 1937 near Nanking. G. M Prokofiev led I-16 to intercept an equal number of A5M from the JNAF 13th Kokutai. Each side lost one aircraft and its pilot. PO3c Kashimura, Kanichi shot down Lt. N N Nezhdanov who was killed. Prokofiev shot down PO3c Miyazaki, Koji who was also killed.

Re: Henschel HS-123
 

Hi
The text about Hs 123 in China was edited in Militaria i Fakty, Polish magazine, earlier was edited in France - Air Magazine. It was a little corrected by me during translation into Polish. The main aim of the author was to show the route/hsitory of the plane from Germany to China with this type, with some information about German personel in China. There are no so many info about it use in ChAF, some info, which are there are taken form Chinse sources but it is a few information.

Henschel Hs 123 in China.Henschel Hs 123 w Chinach (translations of the text written by Rudolf Hőfling - Austria), p. 3, 5 b&w photos, [in:] Militaria i Fakty 2 (27)/2005.

Regards
Mirek Wawrzynski

Re: Henschel HS-123
 

Some next coments.
This text in Chinese web side with some photos of Hs 123, had been written most probably with the support of French version written by Rudolf Hofling material. If I am rith the firs edition of it was in French Air Magazine no 23, (Jan 2005). At least 5 photos on the web are the same as in this French text, and also the same with four photos in Polish version. Rudolf had an acces to previous not yet edited photos, which were published the first time exactly in his text.

I have done an error about this Wydawnictwo Militria no 4. I do not know this a book, or a text (?).
The color of Chinese Hs 123s on the Chinses web side is not good, if you look at the photos printed below or above. Pure fiction.

Regards,
Mirek Wawrzynski