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Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
Hello,
I am seeking the werknummer and aircraft codes of German night-fighters from the STAB of NJG 4 during the night of 18/19 or 19/20 December 1944. I am particularly looking forward the machine flown by Hauptmann Hans Krause ( Kommandeur I/NJG 4 ) Glad in advance Adriano |
Re: Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
Adriano
I don't have Krause's log book to hand but i will have this evening. You can either contact me off board or wait for me to get home this evening and i'll post it for everyone's benefit. All the best, David. |
Re: Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
Is that the Krause who flew with NJG6 from Hungary earlier the year?
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Re: Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
Yes Franek,
But it seems he flew with NJG 101 from Hungary, isnīt that? And also with NJGr 10 ( Fw 190 A-5 with Neptun 217 radars ), where he claimed a Mosquito. There are many troubles with Hptm Krause. I do still do not know if there were two Krauses or if Hans Krause is the same Josef Krause mentioned in other NJG. It seems they are the same person and he claimed 28 victories by the end of WW2. Friendly and sincerely yours Adriano |
Re: Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
THAT Krause was still with NJG 101 in Dec 44 and did not fly that night. His first flight with NJG 4 was not until 2 Feb 45
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Re: Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
Chris,
who? Josef Krause or Hans Krause? |
Re: Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
Hans Krause
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Re: Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
Adriano you are mixing up Fritz E. Krause of NJGr 10 and NJG 11 up with Hptm Hans Krause of NJG 101 and NJG 4.
simple matter as many authors have done the same E ~ |
Re: Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
So, how many Krauses we have at the moment?
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Re: Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
Hi Adriano,
Hauptmann Hans Krause, according to his log book did not fly on the nights you are interested in as he was still with NJG 101. He flew from Parndorff on 22.1144 on two operations, claiming a wellington (?) He then next flew operationally on 110245 from Vechta. On both occassions he was flying a Ju 88 ( 22.11.44 was 9W+KC) with NJG 101 and then (110245 he flew 3C+AB) with NJG 4, which he didn't join until Feb 1945 as Kommandeur of I./NJG 4. Hope this helps. Having met him, and having copies of his war time documents this is not Josef Krause as stated in previous postings. |
Re: Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
Just as an adendum, Hans Krause passed away on 30.12.2006.
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Re: Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
David does it mention in Krauses book the werke nummer of his Ju 88G-6 3C+AB, as he flew 3C+BC on Gisela op in March 45, a Berlin 240 equipped craft - yes ?
E ~ |
Re: Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
David, so Hans never flew against Warsaw Airlift, this being the job of Josef?
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Re: Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
Hi Eric,
It doesnt mention the werke number, what it does tell me is that he took off from Gutersloh at 22.39 hours on 3.3.45 and landed back at Twente at 0210 hours on 04.03.45 His crew were Zinn and Specht. All the best, David. |
Re: Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
Sorry Franek,
Checked the log book for that time and no mention of any Polish operations. Closest he got was flying from Budapest in July, Sept and October 1944. |
Re: Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
Yes, there must be a mistake somewhere!
I am talking of the Hans Krause who flew BF 110 G with NJG 3, later flew with NJG 101 ( Dornier Do 217 ) and NJG 4 ( Ju 88 G ). He was credited with a Mosquito on the night of 7/8 July 1944, while flying with NJGr 10 ( the photograph of his machine is well known ). He answered my queries in 1999, sending pictures and 3 mission descriptions, one of them a ground attack mission during the Ardennes Offensive, in 19 December 1944, when he baled out for the second time with his entire crew. I read and heard about a Josef Krause, who seems to be the same person ( nickname ? ) as answered on a previous Forum message ( I do not remember if on this Forum or elsewhere, had to check ). It seems impossible to have 2 Hans Krauses on the Nachtjagd. However, if there is, I am talking of the one who finished with 28 victories and the RK, and of course, who someone put here ( and almost all know ) flew during Operation Gisela. David you seems to be in contact with his family and probably are working on his war diaries too. You could confirm for us that information? Or you are talking of another Krause who flew with the Nachtjagd? It is becoming quite interesting. Someone do know about his detachment with NJGr 10? For how long did he stay with this unit? His claims also seems to be difficult to solve. Those on the Reich Defense ( NJG 3 ) are findable, but on Hungary and later on….I had a headache! Well, we all certainly have more to find out about him… |
Re: Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
Yes, David, we are talking of the same Krause.
Otto Zin and Fritz Specht as well...They flew with him on the night of 19 December 1944 and parachuted from a Junkers Ju 88 that night ( or a BF 110? ) That what I am looking for.... It is the same person....I am checking his mission description now! Adriano |
Re: Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
Hi Adriano,
We are talking of the same Krause. He finished the war with 28 victories and the Knight's Cross. I have other papers of his, i will check them tomorrow and come back to you over the weekend with further details. I'm afraid i dont know of Josef Kause, i only ever met Hans Krause. All the best, |
Re: Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
Quote:
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Re: Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
David many thanks for the additional info I will add to a brief note on the Gisela entry
E ~ |
Re: Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
Franek,
There are many claims of him against Wellingtons as well B-25. Do you have any information on the Russian side? He seems to have claimed some DB-3 also. I am currently working on his victories also, but as I put before, too much complicated without OFICIAL information. It would be so easy if we could cross-check the oficial information and take our own deductions...BUT, alas, this is almost unfindable... Will keep in touch... |
Re: Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
Adriano, Hans never served on duty flying Moskito-jagd in NJGr 10, that was Fritz E. Krause who had something like 10 kills to his credit he became leader in NJG 11, this is fact !! He flew both the Fw 190A with FuG 217 N and then later the Bf 109G-6/AS, several different a/c by the way on the Moskito-jagd before flying G-14/AS intercepting heavy Lancasters and finally the dreded night ground attack missions in later 1945
E ~ |
Re: Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
Adriano,
Looking through the log book he has at least 4 claims against Russian DB-3s when he was operatingfrom Parndorf. I have a victory list supplied by Krause and i will give details of this when i have it to hand. |
Re: Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
Erich and all,
Sorry for MY ERROR. You are correct, Hans Krause did not fly with NJGr 10. I made a mistake checking the information on Gebhard Adersībook German Night Fighter Force 1917-45īs Mosquito claims list. The claim of a Mosquito on the night of 7/8 July 1944 was credited to Olt Krause, so I ASSUMED they were the same. PLEASE accept my appologies and the disturb I caused this thread on a bad interpretation! Thanks ERICH! Yours Adriano |
Re: Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
Quote:
Hope you don't mind me butting in on the thread, but you may be able to answer the following. 1. Could you tell me what date Hans Krause served with 1./NJG 3 until and was he then posted straight to 6./NJG 101. 2. Was he St.Kap. 6./NJG 101 until he became Gr.Kdr. I./NJG 4 or did he serve as Gr.Kdr. II./NJG 101 prior to serving with I./NJG 4. Best Regards Andy Fletcher |
Re: Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
Hi, Adriano (and all others)
Firstly, doesn't seem that anyone answered fully the question you asked, namely for the losses of Stab/N.J.G.4 on these dates. There is in fact an inconsistency in your question - you ask for details of the losses of the Stab/N.J.G.4 (which would be the Geschwaderstab of the unit, in the reporting context a separate entity) and then you look especially for the data on (if existing) the Gruppenkommandeur of I./N.J.G.4. Any information with regards to loss/damage where he could have been involved would have been reported under the unit designation I./N.J.G.4, not Stab/N.J.G.4. OK, so to my contribution to the discussion: The Geschwaderstab of N.J.G.4 (Stab/N.J.G.4) does not seem to have experienced combat losses (personnel or aircraft) on any of the mentioned dates. The I./N.J.G.4 had one aircraft damaged on the 18.12.1944. The aircraft was on a combat sortie, but it was not involved in any kind of combat resulting in this damage (in my opinion this would be due to a technical error, or simply a landing or take-off accident). The crew was not hurt, and the damage higher than or equal to 10% and lower than or equal to the report standard of 50%). Further, they had one aircraft reported as being destroyed on 19.12.1944. Again, this was on an operational sortie, but not due to battle damage. This time a crew member, a non-officer, was killed in the crash, and thus a Namentliche Verlustemeldung giving the details of this crash should exist. Regards, Andreas B |
Re: Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
Andreas,
Finally...after a BIG mistake I wrote, here we are on the track of the original thread again. Well, as I told, I received back in 1999, some missions descriptions by Hans Krause, Gruppenkommandeur of I/NJG 4 in German. I got them translated these last weeks, as I do understand only a few words of Gerrman. Hans Krause describes a mission he flew on the night of 19 December 1944 ( I do not know if 18/19 or 19/20 December - OK, this is why I put on the thread information on those two nights ). He describe an air-to-ground attack with his 20mm guns on a US or Allied convoy of trucks that had their lights ON. After two or three passes, he was hit by AA fire and broke combat, trying to evade at very low level. He was hit twice ( from his description ). He then climbed to 21,000 feet amongst high clouds and become lost, as most his radio and compass was hit by AA fire. He flew guiding himself by the moon and ORDERED his crew to bale out with him. They landed together somewhere in Germany ( had to check the files on my other computer for that later ). This is the information I had from him on his own words. He flew with the STAB of I/NJG 4 on the third wave of aircraft that took off that night to attack vehicles. Do you have ANY DATA about I/NJG 4 losses that night? |
Re: Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
Hi, Adriano
Sorry, but I haven't... The I. Gruppe books losses for the 18th and 19th as described in my earlier post, the next ones are booked for the 21st. On the 21st it seems that I. Gruppe lost two aircraft in combat, these are however sorted into category 4: 'auf Feindflug durch Bordwaffenbeschuss total mit Feindbeobachtung' - or in my bad translation 'total loss by gunfire from enemy aircraft on operational sortie'. It is not totally unlikely that the clerks have sorted this into the wrong category, or even that the unit at the time of the report attributed this to opposition in the air, but in that case the incident must have taken place after midnight, thus on the 21st, even if the sortie started before midnight (we have had some of these before, where the take-off in reality was on one date and the resulting crash on the day after). Also - it seems that no personell were injured in these two incidents, which would fit into the description you have of the incident, a total aircraft loss, but no injury to personnel. Regards, Andreas B |
Re: Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
The "NJG claim" book by Foreman, Parry and Matthews listed all claims listed by Tony Wood for Hans/Josef Krause of NJG 101 as for the same man, Hans Krause.
By the way, this book is only listing 27 kills for Hans Krause with NJG 3 and NJG 101. From the above I guess the 28th kill was scored with NJG 4 in 1945 but does anyone have more details ? |
Re: Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
Hi,
According to the details given to me by Krause he joined I./NJG 3 on 1st November 1941 at Vechta as the units Technical Officer until 22nd April 1943. On 23rd April 1943 he joined the 6th Staffel of 6./NJG 101 as its Staffelkapitan. He was then posted to I./NJG 4 as its Gruppenkommandeur on 6th December 1944. His 27th and 28th Victories were achieved on 22.11.44 against a Liberator and a Wellington in Planquadrate 57 SL in South East Europe. Hope this answers some of the questions posed. All the best, David. |
Re: Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
Hi David,
Many thanks for the data, just what I was after. Best Regards Andy Fletcher |
Re: Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
According to the Verlustmeldung:
19.12.1944, 21.45 Uhr, Zeitz, Ju 88, WNr. 714788, 3U+FB, Stab I./NJG 4 Ofw. Otto Reuter, born 24.6.1912, Bordwart, gefallen b. Fallschirmabsprung. Gruss, John. |
Re: Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
Hi Andy,
I have a full list of Krause's victories, etc anything else i can help you with just let me know, all the best, David. |
Re: Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
Hi David,
As Laurent mentioned earlier in the thread Krause's claims of the 23Nov44 are listed as his 26th and 27th in Tony Wood's claims lists and Luftwaffe Nightfighter Claims 39-45 not as his 27th and 28th as you mention. Could you please provide the additional claim to the following list. Date; Rank; Unit; Kill; Claim 19Aug42; Lt; 5./NJG 3; Stirling; 1 06Oct42; Lt; 1./NJG 3; Wellington; 2 06Oct42; Lt; 1./NJG 3; Wellington; 3 30Mar43; Lt; 1./NJG 3; Lancaster; 4 01Feb44; Oblt; 6./NJG 101; Wellington; 5 03Apr44; Oblt; 6./NJG 101; Wellington; 6 16Apr44; Oblt; 6./NJG 101; Wellington; 7 11May44; Oblt; 6./NJG 101; Halifax; 8 30May44; Oblt; 6./NJG 101; Halifax; 9 10Jun44; Oblt; 6./NJG 101; Mitchell; 10 03Jul44; Oblt; 6./NJG 101; Wellington; 11 03Jul44; Oblt; 6./NJG 101; Halifax; 12 03Jul44; Oblt; 6./NJG 101; Halifax; 13 22Jul44; Oblt; 6./NJG 101; Wellington; 14 20Aug44; Oblt; 6./NJG 101; Wellington; 15 14Sep44; Oblt; 6./NJG 101; DB-3F (Il-4); 16 19Sep44; Hptm; 6./NJG 101; DB-3F (Il-4); 17 19Sep44; Hptm; 6./NJG 101; DB-3F (Il-4); 18 13Oct44; Hptm; 6./NJG 101; Wellington; 19 21Oct44; Hptm; 6./NJG 101; Wellington; 20 26Oct44; Hptm; 6./NJG 101; DB-3F (Il-4); 21 05Nov44; Hptm; 6./NJG 101; Liberator; 22 05Nov44; Hptm; 6./NJG 101; Liberator; 23 17Nov44; Hptm; 6./NJG 101; Halifax; 24 17Nov44; Hptm; 6./NJG 101; Halifax; 25 23Nov44; Hptm; 6./NJG 101; Wellington; 26 23Nov44; Hptm; 6./NJG 101; Liberator; 27 Best Regards Andy Fletcher |
Re: Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
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Re: Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
John, thank you for adding new information about I/NJG 4 losses on the night of 19 December 1944.
David P. Williams, may I ask you the Fliegerschules Hans Krause frequented before joining NJG 3. You have that information on his logbooks? With how many hours he soloed? And how many flights he did? Do you have the date of his first bail out? Glad Adriano |
Re: Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
Adriano,
To your questions first. According t his log book his first flight was taken on 20.05 1940 flying a He72 (KC + AF) at A/B Schule Dresden/Klotzsche and it lasted 21 minutes. His first solo flight was made on 29.05 1940 flying a He 72 (KC + AG) after about 7 hours flying time. It was his 64th flight! He flew a total of 135 hours and 28 minutes at A/B Schule Dresden/Klotzsche, finishing on 05.10 1940. On 27.10. 1940 he went to C/Schule at Wiener Neustadt where he flew multi engined aircraft such as the Ju 52, Do 23 and Ju 86. Finished there on 14.05.1941 On 14.06.1941 he went to Neuburg/Donau where he flew about 75 hours Blind Flying Training before going to Schleissheim to train as a night fighter, arriving there on 30.06.1941. He completed this part of his training on 27.10.1941. He arrived at Vechta to join I./NJG 3 on 01.11.1941, where he flew Me 110 (D5 + HH) with his bordfunker Uffz. Zinn. It would appear his first operation as a night fighter took place on 27.12.1941. The first mention of him taking to his parachute is recorded as taking place on the night of 5/6.09.1943 after an encounter over Munich. He was flying a Do 217 (G3 + EV) 00.22 hours on 06.09.1943. According to details he gave me he joined 6./NJG 101 on 23.04.1943. I hope this covers all of your questions. All the best, David. |
Re: Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
Adriano,
Ommited to add that he attended Luftkriegsschule Werdel/Havel 1. Offz. Kompanie on 15.11.1939 until 08.02.1940. He then went to 3.Kompanie Flg. Ausbildungs-Regiment 12 between 09.02.1940 and 30.04.1940. He then went to Dresden/Klotzsche as i previously mentioned. David. |
Re: Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
Andy,
This is the list given to me by Krause and i have checked them against his log book. 1. 06.10.42 23.22 hours Wellington 6km N of Hardenburg 2. 06.10.42 23.37 hours Wellington Near Rheine 3. 30.03.43 03.26 hours Lancaster Eilvese/Wunstorf 4. 01.02.44 19.44 hours to 21.35 hours Wellington Nordufer Plattensee 5. 3/4.04.44 22.14 hours and 01.21 hours Wellington Raum Steinamanger 6. 16/17.04.44 21.48 hours and 01.05 hours Wellington 7. 4/5.05.44 22.45 hours and 02.06 hours Wellington 8. 4/5/05.44 ' ' Wellington 9. 10/11/05.44 22.29 hours and 01.35 hours Halifax S of Budapest 10. 30/31.05.44 21.04 hours and 00.50 hours Halifax S of Budapest 11. 10/11.06.44 22.30 hours and 01.03 hours Mitchell SW of Budapest. 12. 02/03.07.44 21.04 to 01.40 Wellington near Budapest. 13. 3/4.07.44 21.15 to 01.55 Halifax 14. 3/4.07.44 ' ' Halifax 15. 21/22.07.44 22.49 to 01.28 Wellington Donau-Knie 16. 2/21.08.44 22.40 to 01.30 Wellington near Budapest 17. 14.09.44 21.04 to 23.33 Il-4 near Budapest. 18. 19/20.09.44 21.15 to 00.23 IL-4 Near Budapest 19. 19/20.09.44 ' ' 20. 13.10.44 19.26 to 22.02 Wellington 21. 21.10.44 19.26 to 21.52 Wellington Raum Budapest 22. 26.10.44 21.22 to 23.53 IL-4 Budapest 23. 5/6.11.44 22.25 to 00.43 Liberator S of Klagenfurt. 24. 5/6.11.44 ' ' 25. 17.11.44 20.11 to 23.45 Halifax Cap Acona. 26. 17.11.44 ' ' 27. 22.11.44 18.58 to 21.10 Liberator. 28. 22.11.44 ' ' Wellington. I havent had time to cross check it with the sources you mention. I'll leave that to you Andy. Hope this helps. All the best, David. |
Re: Stab/NJG 4 losses on 19 December 1944
Thanks David for providing all this data.
The kill on 19 Aug 1942 was listed by Tony Wood as done by Ltn Krause and completed as Hans Krause by the NJG claims book. But the website "Air War over Denmark" shows that the Krause that claimed over Denmark on 19 August 1942 was another, who was killed in a crash the same night. This source gaves his name as Herbert Krause, another (http://www.rafandluftwaffe.info/luftwaffe1.html) as Friedel Krause. This crash was not listed in Michael Balss first book on NJG losses (personnel losses) but is in his second (and later) book on materiel losses (plus additional losses discovered in the meantime) and he lists the pilot as Friedel Krause... The Volksbund website gives no indication about the real name. For this date there is no Krause listed as killed in Denmark. So that is another Krause confusion... |
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