Blue or Blue-Gray Camouflage on Bf 109E
 

In the color-photo section of Ken A. Merrick's German Aircraft Markings 1939-1945 (1977 edition), there appear three photos of the BF 109E-4/N. White 4 + -, of Horst Perez of 4./JG 26, the camouflage of which appear to be two shades of blue on the upper sides. The aircraft lies on its belly in a field next to a blue VW, so a comparison can be made as to its colors. Also, there are green trees in the background, the color of which does not match the blue-gray of the wings.

In the book Full Circle by Johnny Johnson, there is related the story of Adolf Galland flying over Dunkirk in a new camouflage scheme. Johnson claims that his Bf 109 is painted olive-green which replaced the previous blue color scheme. I have never heard of this story before. Galland hears over the R/T that a German fighter pilot is going to dive down on him and he avoids the "friendly fire" when he sees tracers and he realizes he is the target. I don't know the source of the story but since green was the standard color of the Bf 109 at the time of Dunkirk (May-June 1940) and not blue, perhaps Galland in his mind had reversed the color schemes. Perhaps this is additional evidence that some kind of blue or blue-gray scheme was experimented with in Galland's units.

RAF intelligence reports frequently described the colors of captured German aircraft. Are there any reports which mention blue or blue-gray as an upper camouflage on the Bf 109E?

Re: Blue or Blue-Gray Camouflage on Bf 109E
 

There was a lot of experimentation carried out by the 109 units during the BoB. This generally involved the use of different shades of grey, and eventually evolved into the mid-war standard of 74/75/76. In colour photos of the time, grey does tend to "pick up" the blue of the sky and look bluer in the photos than in real life. Yes, I am sure there are a number of comments in RAF intelligence reports, although it seems that their use of colour terminology was , unsurprisingly, very loose.

However, the Johnson/Galland story may refer to the painting out of the very obvious blue 65 fuselage sides of the earlier 109 scheme. Previous to this a fighter with a high demarcation was German, a low demarcation was Allied. Overpainting of the light blue with a camouflage colour would negate this difference.

Re: Blue or Blue-Gray Camouflage on Bf 109E
 

Hi,

Graham is quite right about the experimentation with blue-greys in the Battle of Britain period and this aspect of Luftwaffe colouration has been through various periods of acceptance or refutation. Quite often these reports are dismissed as poor perception or description of the 'standard' RLM 74/75 scheme but remember that the former is actually a grey-green, not a blue-grey and the latter is basically neutral, perhaps with a hint of blue in some circumstances.

In any case, there are some beautiful, well-balanced, colour prints of Bf 109 Es (including yours)- with some in recent issues of Luftwaffe Im Focus, the last issue with a wonderful close-up of the tail with a dark blue-grey mottle and RLM02. In an earlier Luftwaffe Im Focus there was the bizarre, no, risible instruction that what we were looking at was not blue-grey but greens! This is the power of 'authority' over reason - just like religion. I suspect that the editor was told by an 'authority' that the colours should be green/grey and dismissed the evidence in front of him.

Best wishes

GrahamB

Re: Blue or Blue-Gray Camouflage on Bf 109E
 

Re: Blue or Blue-Gray Camouflage on Bf 109E
 

I have had long discussions with Ken Merrick and Claes Sundin concerning RLM 74. Well, perception of colour is variable among people but at least according to my eyeballs, all the samples of authentic 74 looked for me a dark neutral grey, perhaps with a drop of green but definetelly not a grey-green. This of course could be due to fading or different paint composition, but it is noticeable, most of German fighters from the period 1941-1945 is described as "silver".
That said I believe that several reports of green-brown German aircraft were of 71/02 painted ones, perhaps in a distorting lighting.

Re: Blue or Blue-Gray Camouflage on Bf 109E
 

Hi Frank,

quite right - but the 'official' name for RLM 74 is given (depending on source, such as the Monogram Painting Guide, Eagle Editions, Ullmann, Kookaburra series etc etc) as Graugrun or Dunkelgrau (grunlich) [note, rpelces typo 'Dunkelgrun in first version of post]. My point was (is) that it was by no means a definite blue-grey as seen in several photos and therefore cannot account for, or be used explain away these schemes (also with a paler blue-grey on the upper surfaces). The other stock 'excuse' or 'put-down' is that it was poorly mixed standard colour. Hmmmm..

Cheers

GrahamB

Re: Blue or Blue-Gray Camouflage on Bf 109E
 

The main reason for discounting 74/75 is that these colours are not known (add emphasis here perhaps?) to have been in existence before 1941. Given the references to blues and various greys, it does seem more likely that 74/75 evolved from experimental hues, rather than being continually (and varyingly) misreported. On the other hand, ruling them out completely may be going too far, given that a 109 in dark grey was reported shot down in Belgium in May 1940.

I do feel, and Ken Merrick posted something similar on one site, that any greenness in 74 has been grossly exaggerated. (Particularly in those *** In Action specials, with Luftwaffe fighters in RAF Day Fighter scheme!) I don't think that the title of the colour would prevent it appearing blue on period colour film taken under a clear sky, though whether it would look blue to an RAF Intelligence officer is clearly another matter.

It has been suggested, rather desperately perhaps, that French paint stocks were used. Well, there was a rather natty blue-grey, was there not?

My conclusion, for what it is worth, is that these 109s were not painted in 74/75, but in colours remarkably like them. Maybe a little bit bluer.

Re: Blue or Blue-Gray Camouflage on Bf 109E
 

Hi,

Graham, what on earth has the 'title' of a colour got to do with anything in your argument. My point was that it merely confirms the fact (backed up by the various colour charts - for what they are worth, considering the variation in some colours between publishers) that RLM 74 was not a blue-grey. Are you saying that all neutral greys change to strong blue-grey in WW2 colour prints? Some desperation here to avoid the issue I think.

Why can't anyone just accept anything other than what they are told by 'authority'?

Cheers

Graham

Re: Blue or Blue-Gray Camouflage on Bf 109E
 

In the colour chips I have seen (Reis, Kookaburra, and the recent Merrick), and in various high-quality reproductions of original colour photos, it does not look at all green to me. Those who have seen many original examples of the colour on surviving parts, or have studied recent colour mixes to original formulae, say that it does not look at all green to them, except perhaps only very slightly when new. The colour has also been referred to more simply as Dunkelgrau, but never (to my knowledge) as Dunkelgrun. My point was, and is, that the title has mislead others into picturing it as a definite green.

As for accepting what is told by authority - that I bounce straight back. What outside of "authority" supports your apparent belief in a green appearance? Certainly nothing of what I have seen, or what has been put forward by people whose judgement I have come to respect over many years.

Yes, a neutral grey will take on a blue tinge when photographed under a blue sky. You write as though this idea is new to you? If so, I regret I can claim no originality in the suggestion, as it has been noticed since colour photography began, as just one of the ways that ambient light can distort colour reproduction - or, perhaps, mislead the casual observer. I mentioned it to show how an observer could be misled from photographs into assuming a blue scheme where none existed, but this would be unlikely to influence an observer of a crashed aircraft. If the RAF Intelligence reports speak of blue uppersurfaces, as they do, then they are unlikely to be reporting the standard versions of 74 and 75. However greenish these may have been.

Re: Blue or Blue-Gray Camouflage on Bf 109E
 

I can't recall if it was mentioned in Ken Merrick's books but I've read other sources that claim that the experiments with grey colors was made by mixing exsisting RLM Colors like RLM66 and RLM65. That would surely make for a blueish grey, but RLM66 was made for internal use in an aircraft so I'm not sure if it would have been mixable with the external RLM65?

RLM70 and RLM65 could have ended up blueish grey as well with enough 65 in it though...

About written reports - not even they seems to be reliable as I've heard of cases where aircraft has been described very differently by different intelligence officers. Armin Fabers Fw190A that he landed intact in Britain has been described as using both RLM02/71 and 74/75 depending on which report you'll read...

/Anders

Re: Blue or Blue-Gray Camouflage on Bf 109E
 

A mixture of RLM 66 and 65 would be less bluish than you think. At least much less than Gris Bleu Foncé (or whatever the French color was called).

Re: Blue or Blue-Gray Camouflage on Bf 109E
 

Been a while.

Since you mention it Primoz, what are the chances (next to mixing) of using some of the captured French paint stocks in the color experiments of that period?

Re: Blue or Blue-Gray Camouflage on Bf 109E
 

Ruy,

good suggestion. Although several matches for each French camouflage can be found throughout the literature two for Gris Bleu Fonce and Gris Bleu Clair would make a good high altitude camouflage without modification and are really quite close to the photographs in question (good-excellent balance, no chance of dark greens or even, contentiously, neutral greys going blue-grey): FS 5164 and FS 5189 respectively.

Cheers

GrahamB

Re: Blue or Blue-Gray Camouflage on Bf 109E
 

According to Merrick (and maybe Ullmann as well, I can't remember clearly) the chances would be slim. Since aircraft paint is pretty advanced stuff, chemically speaking, they would probably not do things like that when they weren't sure how it would affect previous paints and the airframe itself...

No one has yet mentioned the fact (maybe idea is a better word) that colordescriptions was a bit different back in 1940 than today. Colors weren't as vivid as we're used to, so anything yellower than "off white" for example, would be called yellow. Same thing would probably go for blue or blueish grey. I don't doubt that the machine in question was painted in a blueish grey by the way...

There's one example, again from Merrick, where some Fw190's found in the mediterranean was referred to as blue in reports, but years later, some colorphotos emerged showing the aircraft in standard RLM74/75!

/Anders

Re: Blue or Blue-Gray Camouflage on Bf 109E
 

Are you referring to a/c actually found on the ground or a/c seen in the air? A grey aircraft seen at a considerable distance will look bluish because the air is slightly bluish (and so is snow; we call pure white "snow white" though snow isn't really white - under certain light conditions it looks light blue). Mountains covered with (green) forests will look blue on a hot summer day.

Re: Blue or Blue-Gray Camouflage on Bf 109E
 

Hi Anders,

I'm still undecided on this issue regardless of the specialist view.

The Germans used captured material and war booty operationally, if I extend that line of thought to necessity and (limited)logistics chances are that even Luftwaffe painters used the next best thing available to them while they waited for logistics to catch up.

Just a gut feeling, no proof whatsoever.

Re: Blue or Blue-Gray Camouflage on Bf 109E
 

Primoz: It was aircraft found on the ground so they were examined up close:

Ruy: I didn't think of it when I wrote my last post but Luftwaffe aircraft has been know to wear Italian paint so I guess French wouldn't be impossible either.

Re: Blue or Blue-Gray Camouflage on Bf 109E
 

Re: Blue or Blue-Gray Camouflage on Bf 109E
 

Gents hi

This is a transcript of the
and the subsequent
I copied both of these from the actual logs ( Air 22/266) held at the Public Records Office (PRO) in Kew.
The entry for Von Werra, first the location report, and then the follow up crashsite visit report.
There is an interesting article by Paul Lucas in Sept04 issue of Model Aircraft Monthly, in which he looks at this report and others. Suggestions are made that Von Werra's aircraft could have been painted using
Fliegerblaugrau (Airforce Blue-Grey) RAL 840R 7016 (very similar in colour to the Royal Navy's Battleship Grey) which was used for painting Luftwaffe vehicles and equipment, and so likely to have been widely available at that time.
Lucas suggests this paint could have been mixed with white to produce a lighter blue-grey which would enable a splinter scheme to be painted. Also mentioned but stated as unlikley option was RLM 24 Dunkelblau which was normally used for markings.
There is an interesting and attractive set of profiles of Von Werra's aircraft in a blue splinter scheme within the article along with alternative schemes for another 5 Me109s including Perez's which may not have worn the standard schemes of that time.

HTH

Pete

Re: Blue or Blue-Gray Camouflage on Bf 109E
 

Very interesting! Again though, the colordescription is weird. I mean, even if all the colors were of a blueish tone, when they're three distinctly different colors (as is obvious from the photos) "All Blue" is hardly the best way to describe it.

There's a picture of an Emil in France, in color, that clearly shows a blueish grey camo - the engine cowling has been removed so the engine bearers are visible and the RLM02 there is much greener then the camocolors. In the background there's a trainer aircraft painted all RLM02 and it's also much greener than the 109.

So, grey or blueish grey certainly existed but as I said, these colordescriptions are not really ideal for solving any "mysteries"

Thanks for sharing though!

/Anders

Re: Blue or Blue-Gray Camouflage on Bf 109E
 

Just thought I'd add a little bit to this.

Discerning an aircraft's camouflage from an intelligence (or other report) isn't very reliable. I have a copy of the A.I.2(g) report for Theo Nibel's Fw 190D-9 (Wnr 210079), which describes the aircraft as camouflaged "a green, which is brighter than that normally seen", whereas the aircraft actually carried a well-documented (by Eric Larger and others) rather more mundane factory 76/75/83/82 scheme.

I guess it boils down to the "eye of the beholder", in the above case someone who'd presumably not seen Hellgrun before and based his description of the camouflage scheme around that fact.

As I say, just my little bit to add,

Chris

Re: Blue or Blue-Gray Camouflage on Bf 109E
 

How long has 82/83 been "mundane"? To me, it seems highly reasonable that Hellgrun had not been commonly seen before new year 1945.

Re: Blue or Blue-Gray Camouflage on Bf 109E
 

Graham,

Whoa there, the term mundane has been taken out of context.

I posted what I did as an example of a single feature (new to the person observing it), which clouded his description of the aircraft's colour scheme.

It seemed an appropriate example in a thread about a reported "blue" Bf 109 and was not intended to offend anyone, merely cite an alternative angle which may not have been considered,

Chris

Re: Blue or Blue-Gray Camouflage on Bf 109E
 

A very good article on the introduction of the "Grey / Gray".

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/articl...b/bob_camo.htm

I too believe that just as the LW used French munitions in the BoB, they could have used French paints. Why not? It was there for the taking.

Re: Blue or Blue-Gray Camouflage on Bf 109E
 

Yes, I see how I missed your point, perhaps because I don't think I've encountered any interpretation of that report suggesting anything more than just a bright green as part of the camouflage. As you have it in your hand, you have a clearer knowledge to what was actually written. This is simply an accurate observation, which I see as an indication of the rarity of such a scheme to British Intelligence at the time, not necessarily reflecting any naivety of the observer.