JU-88 C-6 without gondola
 

This photo appears in "International Air Power Review", Volume 19.

It is captioned as an aircraft flown by KG 76 in May 1943. Both the camouflage and configuration are interesting. The WNr. in white is visible on the top of the vertical stab., and all markings appear to have been applied after the camoflage.

Any other photos or info on this aircraft ?

( I have also posted this query on LEMB - apologies for cross-posting, but it seems 12OCH gets a bit more traffic )

Re: JU-88 C-6 without gondola
 

Hello Falcon04;

I have looked at the photo and it indeed is ´D-1 / C-6´ version (no airbrakes). Code of this one appears as +KN or +KR (unit code not is not visible).

There are known a few ´specials´ such as the ´C-6 like´ machine coded F1+KR and used in the Mediterranean - was it perhaps C-6 15740 ? (see loss report below) but the number on the tail is six digits (possibly 360xxx but too early for the 720xxx or 750xxx ranges), but it could be an rebuilt A-4 nevertheless. The loss below is the only one known by II/KG 76 - others belonging to Stab or III/Gruppen.

15740 Ju 88 C-6´ II/KG 76 (Luftflotte 2)
OPS (F) engine failures (100%) north of Rom 21.10.1943 (F Uffz. Alfred Bernecke killed, BF Uffz. Walter Leeger inj/rep allright in LWFLV losses x/31.01.44) (rep as ´A4 3740´ in LWFLV losses 36v06.11.43; amd 15740 in qu/13.11.43 !!!!)

( ~ Not 5740 as that was already destroyed in Rumanian service earlier that month; both 1570 and 1574 known lost before - Number not found in any Ju 88 W.Nr. range)

Re: JU-88 C-6 without gondola
 

edNorth - Appreciate the prompt reply.

Looking at the original high-resolution scan, what appears to be an Italian aircraft - S.79 is my guess - is visible just at the 2 O'Clock position relative to the left wheel of the subject. All you can make out is the broad white fuselage band in the attached pic. - in the original scan the shape of the fuselage and position of the band are totally consistant with this.

Since the subject aircraft also has a white band, this would support a Mediterranean location.

This of course begs the upper-surface camouflage question - a dark green over 65 or 76 or even 79 ???

Also, KG 76 is strictly the photo caption - who knows if that is the unit.

I would guess a C-6 rather than a D-1 - much easier to remove the gondola from a C-6 than to add a gun nose to a D-1 - but who knows.

I have another "gondo-less" Ju-88 which I'm researching - a D-5 shot down over Iceland with which I'm sure you are familiar - but I'll start another thread for that one.

( as an aside, could you possibly select another type face for your posts - I have a very hard time reading the type you've selected ! )

Re: JU-88 C-6 without gondola
 

Hello !

Ok, changed text formatting :)

cheers
ed

Re: JU-88 C-6 without gondola
 

Thanks - that's much better. Eyes getting too old for some of this !

Re: JU-88 C-6 without gondola
 

Found pix of two other A and C Ju 88s without a gondola.

http://home.earthlink.net/%7Eplanepix1/xxFBblack.jpg

http://home.earthlink.net/%7Eplanepix1/ju88abmw.jpg

Re: JU-88 C-6 without gondola
 

Hi,

I think 'FB' have the so-called Bola, because is visible the rear part opened, with the MG end the ladder

HTH

piero

Re: JU-88 C-6 without gondola
 

Hi Modeldad,

The all black has gondola, in front of the stair is the
rear gun part of it, hanging down and looking closely one barely sees the front end. However it is so dark it makes one think it has none.

The other one definately has no gondola but an bulge under the rear bay makes it more interesting - the gondola has been removed and newer pating installed - not to mention that it appears to be complete with periscope! Who has info on this one, it escapes me at the moment.

cheers
ed

Re: JU-88 C-6 without gondola
 

I interpret the object under the late D as a fuel tank under the wing, not a bulge under the fuselage.

Re: JU-88 C-6 without gondola
 

Hi ed,
if you buy the German magazine FLUGZEUG CLASSIC, issue 11/2005 you can read the whole story of this aircraft. I wrote an article about this and several other Ju 88 which were later equipped with BMW 801 I/TI (with turbocharger). The photo shows the C-7, W-Nr. 0648, known unit codes: K9+VH, T9+EH and T9+BL.

Regards Peter

Re: JU-88 C-6 without gondola
 

Peter:

So, I guess you are saying your work labeled the a/c as a C-7.

It obviously has nose cannon/guns. How was it used? Do I see the flame damping exhaust shrouds on the a/c? Does this indicate it was used as a night intruder?

Re: JU-88 C-6 without gondola
 

Peter - is that issue still available from the publisher?

I understand you also wrote an article on the D-5 / D-6 in the same magazine. Would sure like to see some new pics of those !

Regarding the bulge - may be a tank or early-style MG-17 gunpack - the resolution of Steve's posting is too poor to respond to digital enhancement. Except for the bomber nose, it visually could be a C-5.

Very interesting aircraft.

The other aircraft is most likely a C-2 or C-4 with the early Jumo's and metal VDM props - and I do see a gondola.

Regarding the original topic pic, a high-res scan shows a slant to the barely visible portion of the final black letter which is more consistant with "A" or "X" than with "N" or "R" - hard to say.

The upper camo is similar to some schemes applied to JU-88 T's - colors have to be a guess - my guess is 70 over 76 but who knows.

Re: JU-88 C-6 without gondola
 

Hi Peter & others,

Re- off topic Ju 88 C-7. Thanks for your input 0648 (ex-A-5 F / Stkz. GE+YL or GE+YM ?) Your article in Flugzeug Classic magazine has escaped my attention - Sorry - Yes I took the fuel tank as ´an bulge´. The large letter on cockpit side is an large ´8´ or did they have an V.. (designation) as well.

But getting on-topic again, do you have possible i.d. on the topic starters C-6 picture. This seems also an very interesting machine. Did they remove the Gondolas from other C-6 machines to increase their speed or range (just like they did with the D-5´s 1726 and 430087)?

cheers
ed

Re: JU-88 C-6 without gondola
 

Hi,

Here an another photo of a Ju88 C-6 with "Bola", flown by the III./K.G.51 on the Eastern Front in 1943.

Rene'

Re: JU-88 C-6 without gondola
 

Hi falcon,

>>Peter - is that issue still available from the publisher?<<
I don’t know. But I can send you scans of the five pages (appr. 5 MB) via e-mail.

Yes, in this article is also mentioned the Ju 88 D-7/430130. But the article mainly deals with the Ju 88’s with BMW 801 I/TI.
The bulge is an MG 17 backwards firing gun-pack.
The C-7/0648 was an ex C-4 (not A-5/F) like all other manufactured C-7’s. Finally the 0648 was equipped with Jumo 213...
The C-7 was an „Behelfs-Fernerkunder“ (recce aircraft) used by the „Versuchsstelle für Höhenflüge“ at Oranienburg (Rowehl). Knemeyer often flew this aircraft.

Regards Peter

Re: JU-88 C-6 without gondola
 

Backwards-firing gun pack !

The Luftwaffe seems never to have abandoned the idea that backwards-firing fixed small caliber MG's were anything but a waste of fuel, but it does explain the periscope.

The image of a Ju-88 pilot trying to evade a heavily armed fighter on his tail with one eye stuck on the periscope sight is not a pretty one.

Re: JU-88 C-6 without gondola
 

Hi Mr. Achs,

check your private messages box, please!

thank you

piero

Re: JU-88 C-6 without gondola
 

That KG 51 aircraft might be a C-2 or C-4 - note the metal narrow-bladed props.

Re: JU-88 C-6 without gondola, Pic # 2
 

here's a 2nd pic of the same aircraft, from Squadron "JU 88 In Action Part 2 .

It's such a lousy print, I didn't recognize it as the same acft - the nose camo is identical.

The partial caption:

" believed to be F1 + KR of 7./KG 76 --- camouflage is reportedly a Light Blue mottle over the standard factory applied camouflage ( although Sand Brown was also a possibility )"

This is opinion masquerading as fact - I think the other photo clearly establishes that the darker upper color was sprayed over the lighter.

I'm also not convinced it's KR, as earlier stated.

Re: JU-88 C-6 without gondola
 

Hi all;

''There are known a few ´specials´ such as the ´C-6 like´ machine coded F1+KR and used in the Mediterranean''

This is exactly the machine I was referring to in earlier post - simply had not noted where I had found it exactly - it has also appeard elsewhere. If there are two shots of same machine, then there might even be more lurking out there.

cheers
ed

Re: JU-88 C-6 without gondola
 

Wasn't the Bola something that could be removed at workshop level? If so, units may well have taken them off when extra speed/weight saving was needed for their current tasks.

I realise that some sub-types didn't have the Bola from the outset of course but I'm reasonably sure it could also be removed from a type that normally had it.

Re: JU-88 C-6 without gondola
 

Hmm, define workshop and task, I suspect. I'm open to education, but I don't see it as a simple job for a frontline unit to do in the short term. Else we'd see it more often, surely? The removal of the gondola would require the presence of replacement skins/doors, which I don't see a mobile unit carrying around on the off-chance. A comparatively easy job for a maintenance unit behind the lines, yes, but done for a fairly extended duration.

Re: JU-88 C-6 without gondola
 

Graham, I could be completely wrong but I thought that all you needed if you removed the Bola was a new rectangular floor hatch and a fairing for the protruding section of the bomb sight. The Bola of a Ju 88 looks like it was a bolt-on rather than integral to the fuselage structure and that it was only accessible inside the aircraft through the hatch aperture.

They made a much neater job of it on the Ju 188!

Re: JU-88 C-6 without gondola
 

I'm sure that you are right in terms of the way the design originated: I don't know but suspect you may well be right about the remaining fuselage skin - although I do wonder a little about access for the gunner in that case. I thought that movement between the positions was possible in flight, and I don't see how that could be easily managed with significant structure in the way. It is normally said that close companionship was one of the morale-boosting reasons for the design of German bombers, and it is difficult to see how this can be if the gunner is lying in a closely-fitting coffin. But this is a discussion based on questions - I don't know. Surely this must be visible on cockpit photos?

Re: JU-88 C-6 without gondola
 

Another copy of the original photo - from "Warbirds Illustrated NO.1" circa 1981. The photo, despite being printed to a larger size, is not any better in quality.

What is if interest is the caption:

"A Junkers 88C fighter of III./KG 76 at Catania, Sicily, May 1943. This aircraft was flown by Hauptmann Diether Lukesch on strafing operations against Allied airfields in North Africa ( Bode, Lukesch )"

The attached image is an enlargement of the fuselage area around the balkenkreuz. I'm still not sure if what I'm seeing to the right of the white K is an "R" or an "X", or no letter at all and simply a part of the camo.

Perhaps the Bode and Lukesch attribution will shed some light on the correct unit.

Re: JU-88 C-6 without gondola
 

No-Bola conversion

IIRC, except for the opening at the back end of the cockpit, which was the shape of the doors seen on the non-Bola Ju 88s, the full skin is on all Ju 88 types. The Bola is an "add-on" not really part of the fuselage structure. I have seen the records of such a conversion ( I have been looking for the documentation for Ed North; sorry Ed still haven't located it yet!). My memory was it had been done at the Fliegerhorst level (I believe the organization of maintenance performed by the Luftwaffe was quite different than that of the RAF and USAAF during WWII). But in any case, the removal of the Bola on reconnaissance and the early Cs (without the Bola mounted cannons) was probably not an exceptionally difficult task. Fabricating the door, and plugging a few holes seems to me well within the level of most airfield level shops (which is where I spent much of my time in the late 1940s and 1950s).
The bomber types were a bit different as they still needed the bombsight fairing, which was used for the S-1s and S-3s ( a pretty reliable recognition point for differentiating these from the "T"s). As a final note, one of the ADIK reports covers an incident when the Bola, with gunner was blown off the Ju 88 over England. I believe the gunner survived, and Ju 88 returned to it's base.
Graham,
Trust me on this one, from the standpoint of having seen a real one and having access to the JFM parts manual. IMHO the Bola was pretty much worthless, it looks ok on paper, but considering the attitude of the Ju 88 fuselage centerline in horizontal flight, the effective field of fire is quite limited. If one looks at factory drawings of the fighter versions, it can be seen that the guns are bore sighted approximately 8-9 degrees down. I don't believe this is evident in photos.

Best Regards,

Artie Bob

Re: JU-88 C-6 without gondola
 

I wondered if he might have to kneel (à la B-17 tail gunners), rather than lie flat?

Re: JU-88 C-6 without gondola
 

Thanks, Artie. I rather agree with you on the likely value of the ventral gun, which makes it a little surprising that it wasn't removed more often. Not only removing the drag of the gondola but the weight of an extra crewmember. However, as long as operation in formation was considered perhaps it wasn't the value of a single gunner but the combined fire of several.

Re: JU-88 C-6 without gondola
 

Hi Artie;

Thanks for looking for non-bola mod records (but no hurry, do not mind vaiting). You may have noticed the other thred re A6+CH 430087 downed 24.04.43 - it was similarily modified. One question remains: what gun ? MG 131 or 7,62 mm. See attached image.

cheers
ed

Re: JU-88 C-6 without gondola
 

Looks like an MG-131 to me.

Re: JU-88 C-6 without gondola
 

Could it be a C-5 model with C-6 JuMo engines?